Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

[Observer]

http://www.cave-shop.jp/

Contact Rancor, GaijinPunch or anyone in Japan.

Buy pervy Mushihime and LoliSmiles posters.

Peace of mind.

PROFIT (for Cave )

[Drachenherz]

http://www.cave-shop.jp/

Contact Rancor, GaijinPunch or anyone in Japan.

Buy pervy Mushihime and LoliSmiles posters.

Peace of mind.

PROFIT (for Cave )

Actually, that looks quite cool:

Ketsui Rubiks Cube:
http://www.cave-shop.jp/fs/caveshop/interior/cvog0029

[neorichieb1971]

That is the question though isn't it. Why are Cave games not region free?

I still have not worked that out. 360 is the only system they develop for which has region locking on it. So therefore some NDS and Ipad stuff might have had it too.

[Kaiser]

That is the question though isn't it. Why are Cave games not region free?

I still have not worked that out. 360 is the only system they develop for which has region locking on it. So therefore some NDS and Ipad stuff might have had it too.

I wonder that too, I mean the games would only sell better, if they were region-free so many westerners would import it without buying a JP360. It seems illogical from business stand-point.

[mjclark]

Because I (as a european) was not in the intendet audience for cave, they never actually wanted my money, or else they would have made Ketsui at least region free. So, I'm not giving them money for a game they did not want to sell me.

This is actually one of the best points I've seen here. I hadn't thought of this at all but when it's put like this seems blindingly obvious!
I'm trying to stay out of all this controversy cos after all this is supposed to be about enjoying shmups, eh?, and I'm sure that no amount of debate is actually going to change who plays Ketsui on MAME and who doesn't, but I am amazed at the growing levels of self-righteousness here.
If you think that the free market and morality are a good mix then you are sorely fuckin' mistaken, though maybe not quite so mistaken as those who think PCBs are like wives

[Frederik]

You may crucify me now for having a different opinion than you.

How DARE you enjoying your life without checking if its completely in line with anybody elses moral standards!

Seriously, if people have high moral standards, good for them. I wonder how many of those pointing fingers have a cracked version of Photoshop or some pirated mp3s sitting on their harddrive. Nobody is a saint, and when I saw that Ketsui came out on MAME I sure as hell played it. And you know what? It´s a fine game, but I´m happy that I didn´t spend money I don´t have on importing a console from Japan just because some assholes in the industry decided that region coding was helping anybody.

When Ketsui Death Label came out I bought it as soon as I could, even though I could have easily got the ROM from Rapidshare and save a couple of bucks. I probably will get an iPod Touch in the future and my first purchases will be DFK and Espgaluda II. But I just can´t fake the outrage and shame in me to feel bad for playing Ketsui on MAME - I just don´t. I can´t afford a 360, let alone importing one from Japan to play the port right now. Now I could go ahead and sit there like a dork and say "Well, if I can´t pay for it I shouldn´t play this game!", but this is reality, where people actually DO play games they didn´t pay for. People also sometimes steal towels from hotels or go over red stoplights.

Everybody has their own set of values and playing Ketsui on MAME ranks pretty low on my list of "things that get people to burn in hell". When I play Ketsui it´s not like its preventing me from spending money on a J360 and the port, because I wouldn´t have done that anyway (I just don´t care enough about shmups anymore to spend that kinda cash). On the flipside, some people might discover that they really love that game and pick up the port for those extra modes. Others might even get sucked into the genre because they could check it out without having to import stuff for several hundred dollars beforehand, and THEN decide to buy a japanese 360. In any case, it surely isn´t as black and white as some people here are trying to make it appear, and CAVE won´t get bankrupt because Ketsui is suddenly playable in MAME.

(Also, holy shit - Ketsui Rubiks Cube! Wonder how well it cuts corners!)

[bcass]

That is the question though isn't it. Why are Cave games not region free?

I still have not worked that out. 360 is the only system they develop for which has region locking on it. So therefore some NDS and Ipad stuff might have had it too.

Making a 360 game region-free costs more money than just encoding it to 1 region. Region-free titles have to undergo testing and certification for every region your game is released in (at least for Japanese publishers).

Because I (as a european) was not in the intendet audience for cave, they never actually wanted my money, or else they would have made Ketsui at least region free. So, I'm not giving them money for a game they did not want to sell me.

Even if it had been region-free, Cave wouldn't have seen a penny of your money because it was 5pb who developed and published the port, not Cave.

[emphatic]

Also, it's CAVE not Cave, people! *shakes fist angrily*

[Drachenherz]

Also, it's CAVE not Cave, people! *shakes fist angrily*

Cave cave cave cave cave.... *sing it to the tunes of "two and a half men"* *ggg*

[mjclark]

So, just out of interest, why are none of our moral crusaders getting cross that 5pb and Microsoft might lose revenue?

[Frederik]

Yeah, of course you could argue that I could import a jx360 in order to play the jap-only releases, but this is too much money for me just to spend on a whim/hobby.

That´s completely reasonable and my position as well. There´s a certain limit when it comes to spending money on videogame stuff, and importing a console it where I draw the line.

Of course, that makes us both seem not very hardcore, I hope you can live with that. I sure can.

So, just out of interest, why are none of our moral crusaders getting cross that 5pb and Microsoft might lose revenue?

Sorry, you spelled it "Microsoft", it´s obvious they´re called "Micro$haft", the makers of Windoze (also known as "Winblows"). They are called that way because they make shitty products and don´t deserve money - for instance, my PC with Windows 7 on it is literally exploding as I type this!

[neorichieb1971]

So far I have seen 50+ people download Ketsui in this thread. Not one person has gone out and bought it.

FACT?

5pb might be making some money on the port. But if sold well they would license other "CAVE" products as well.

[djvinc]

Don't preach to a forum that half its members contributed to the Ketsui dump scene.

Surprisingly few people contributed. A tiny fraction of forum members actualy (less than 0.35%).

And to all up-to-date savvy emulation gurus out there in this thread, there is supposed to be a difference between the dump project and the emulation project. I paid to have a backup of the roms to fix my pcb if it fails, not to see some hackers playing for free. My bad for believing in the preservation bullshit of the Mame team.

[mjclark]

...I have seen 50+ people download Ketsui in this thread.

...and I think to myself "It's a wonderful world."

[EPS21]

So far I have seen 50+ people download Ketsui in this thread. Not one person has gone out and bought it.

FACT?

5pb might be making some money on the port. But if sold well they would license other "CAVE" products as well.

And owning the port already AND downloading the rom must be mutually exclusive then
Anyone here who was considering buying it would have already done so when the game was released so this argument is rather weak

[austere]

I paid to have a backup of the roms to fix my pcb if it fails, not to see some hackers playing for free.

Don't cry yourself to death, I want you to live to see my reply. This is my last post in this thread until then, enjoy yourselves.

[bcass]

So far I have seen 50+ people download Ketsui in this thread. Not one person has gone out and bought it.

FACT?

Do you know how many of those people who don't already own the PCB/360 port?

[bcass]

5pb might be making some money on the port. But if sold well they would license other "CAVE" products as well.

The 5pb ports sold poorly at retail. Ketsui had been discounted to half price within a few weeks after release. The DOJBLEX port was actually recalled from shelves once the bugs started to surface with the company publically stating that there would be no reprint. This was all long before the ROMs surfaced.

[Frederik]

For some reason this discussion isn´t going on at CAVE-STG. You would think that a forum exclusively dedicated to these games would care the most, but somehow everybody stays calm over there. Seems to me that the rumors of CAVEs impending death caused by Ketsui ROM downloads are greatly exaggerrated.

[emphatic]

everybody stays calm over there

Yes, that's because the mods there have no tolerance for cry-babies who doesn't have a clue what they're ranting about.

[cul]

Do you want it gold plated also? I don't see the issue with region locking, if you want to play them on the 360 - buy a jp 360.

Some people want the moon on a stick.

wah - a highly niche, low selling game isn't being released in my region on my console!

Most retarded argument ever. Do you know how much it costs in ports and taxes to import a jap 360? I already pay more tax regulations than the actual price of the game when I import a free zoned game. And money doesn't grow on trees, some people here are grown up adults who have more relevant interests than spending thousands of bucks on video games. Many people here have been spending ridiculous amount of money on importing systems in the last two decades and are fed up with that shit when nothing justify region lock anymore.

I own every single freezoned CAVE shmup, if Death smiles, DDP DOJ, Ketsui were freezoned, I would own them too. The sum is pretty simple, that's a 3*70= 210 usd loss for CAVE, a real loss, because I had the money to buy them, I WANTED to buy them, but I wouldn't have been able to USE them if I did. And MANY people are in that case. You can spend ridiculous amount of money for a device that just has a different bios than a device you can buy in your own country? Good for you, congratulation, just don't forget that you're the minority of a minority. And a market isn't sustainable on people like you.

Region locking in 2010 is a freaking outdated thing, in an era where you can buy a game without having to own its physical content, when everyone owns a credit card and an internet connection. Importing a game is a thing that anyone can do, importing a system is a risk and a huge investment that many people who've been doing that for decades don't want to do anymore.

I'd love to see ESP2 and DDP resurrection sales on iphone, I'm sure they're crushing the sales of all 360 region locked games put together. I know people who never touched an arcade stick in their whole lives who own it and find it great. That last Ketsui emulation proves one thing: sooner than later games are cracked and emulated (Btw, every cave shmups are warezed on day zero, so whining about the mame emulation is a joke when those game were already hacked months ago), but people are still ready to pay for the original game, even more if it offers things like leaderboards, future DLC and shit. Give an official leader-board and downloadable blacklabel arrange mode to any person who's playing on MAME, and among them all the gamers/fans will pay 70 bucks without any kind of problem. If CAVE decided to port its game to PC and release them on Steam, ONLY the collectorfags would whine, but they already whine for any kind of ports anyway.

In a period of time where both retrogaming AND japanese stuff are super trendy even in the mainstream culture, when boring indie games like Recettear have huge success just because they're wapanese, it's just incomprehensible that CAVE hasn't expended its market on the PC yet, like they did with success on the iphone. Because porting a game on PC costs nothing if you already port your game on 360, and any kind of shit low-spec PC can run a cave shooter.

[Drachenherz]

long but imo reasonable text

Completely agree with you.

And, on a sidenote: another swiss shmuper? so the rumours are true, they DO exist.

[Taylor]

Can we have a dedicated, and avoidable, meta-thread for business ideas to go with the region-free and order-status ones?

[ZacharyB]

Making a 360 game region-free costs more money than just encoding it to 1 region. Region-free titles have to undergo testing and certification for every region your game is released in (at least for Japanese publishers).

This here is the thing I want to know. What is the cost? $100,000? $500,000? It has to be a lot that they would forego potentially hundreds of sales.

But even Qute say they want to make the upcoming Eschatos region-free, and they don't sound like a big corporation. I totally don't get it! At this point I'm thinking it's some kind of image move to maintain value on the stock market, like, the ability to declare a certain number of units sold locally.

[neorichieb1971]

If 5pb can't get the ports right with the license then they have no business releasing anything.

Might as well have MAME members work for 5pb to at least get the original mode right.


As for my weak argument. The whole thread is a weak argument. Thats why everyone is looking to drag supporting factors into the thread to make it sustain its momentum. Its obvious we all feel differently about how games should be sold, distributed and priced. The fact is CAVE have control of the situation up to a point. Then the MAME guys come in and take control. Its where the control leaves the hands of CAVE and where it enters the control of MAME members thats the problem. For the OP its too soon, for others its taken too long. There is no middle ground here.

[Keade]

You make a lot of good points 'cul', nice post.

Some facts : Most UK developers do not consider piracy as a threat
I wanted to find international surveys on that subject but I couldn't find anything, unfortunately. Maybe Japan has its own videogames developpers associations and organizations, which could tell us more about the subject, I don't know.
Anyway, I think this survey is speaking for themselves, especially if you consider that these UK devs were talking about recent, easily accessible (accessible as in "easy to get in the UK", not "easy to get in") games here. Not obscure niche games that are 8 years old and would require you to import hardware from another country, because it looks like the devs do not care that much that you can't play their game.
I think Cave don't (or at least didn't) care about its european fans anywhere near as much as some here think they do, even though it seems this is changing (the few region-free ports are proof of it).

@neorichieb1971 : do not believe that the motive behind "anti-piracy" fights (broadly speaking) is to "protect the fans". This is not rational thinking. I am not saying "piracy is cool etc." here, but anti-piracy fights motives are not as noble as you seem to think.
In the same way that you think it is to "protect the fans" (a noble cause !), editors, publishers will say that extensive and powerful copyright laws, DRMs and things alike are for protecting the artists/developers. In many cases it is a lie. I am not going to explain why, there are people who explains it much better than I could here (video: Richard Stallman talking of copyright and free software). Now, while I can admit this video sure isn't perfectly neutral (supposing neutrality existed), and is not made as an apology of piracy, it makes a lot of good points you may be surprised to hear.

[Obiwanshinobi]

The fact is CAVE have control of the situation up to a point. Then the MAME guys come in and take control. Its where the control leaves the hands of CAVE and where it enters the control of MAME members thats the problem.

The moment Cave lose control is when a port comes out for a platform where piracy is possible.

[Observer]

The fact is CAVE have control of the situation up to a point. Then the MAME guys come in and take control. Its where the control leaves the hands of CAVE and where it enters the control of MAME members thats the problem.

The moment Cave lose control is when a port comes out for a platform where piracy is possible.

In short, google Deathsmiles II+torrent or something like that.

Surprise, surprise.

edit: to make myself clear, I mean the 360 isn't precisely piracy free. That

[neorichieb1971]

Last time I checked piracy didn't have region locking. Therefore its the same thing as MAME isn't it. I don't think Deathsmiles is part of this debate, so piracy is still one step ahead of MAME.

[bcass]

Last time I checked piracy didn't have region locking. Therefore its the same thing as MAME isn't it. I don't think Deathsmiles is part of this debate, so piracy is still one step ahead of MAME.

Actually, region-locking is still present and correct on the 360 if you've only had your DVD drive chipped to play copies. Only a JTAG 360 can circumvent region protection. Very few people own JTAG systems since only certain (older) 360s can be moded in this way. Most 360 piracy centers around the DVD drive chip, so even the pirates are lumbered with region-locking.