PS2 31khz SoG Green Screen - Resolved

[dieKatze88]

Odd! Mine looks different.

ANYWAY. A friend of mine and I, facing this problem have decided to build some adapters. If we turn out to be any good at it I'll let you guys know and there might be some for sale.

[RGB32E]

480i via Extron RGB 190
http://a.imageshack.us/img444/9742/ps2extron480i.jpg

240p via Extron RGB 190
http://a.imageshack.us/img375/5637/ps2extron240p.jpg

[Fudoh]

Nice, thanks for the effort !

This basically means that you can now force the scanline overlay in the XRGB's B1 mode for every PS2 title, not only for native 240p ones. Great news after all

PS: Did you need a sync stripper before the RGB190's input ?

[RGB32E]

I couldn't find my VSS100, so I used my SS100 instead:

http://a.imageshack.us/img251/7620/quasi240psetup.jpg

I will say that the sync processing doesn't make for a true 240p signal, rather what I'd like to call quasi-240p. The PVM-2030 in my config still displays with same high pitch squeel regardless of Extron settings. So, while it looks sorta like 240p, it isn't actually 240p... CRTs emit different frequencies relative to the source. So, a 240p signal "sounds" different than a 480i source. The sound being a function of the scan/refresh rates in relation to the flyback transformer...

[Fudoh]

So, a 240p signal "sounds" different than a 480i source

they are the same. Just the signal's offset is shifted half a line. This tells the monitor to display the fields on the same height instead of alternating their vertical offset.

I don't have a CRT anymore anyway, just want to use it with a XRGB-3.

[RGB32E]

Not in practice, and most certainly not in this case!!! Do I need to make a recording to convince you? It's just one of those subtlies that are lost when trying to give a brief explanation! There is a distinct difference... it's just that the Extron with DDSP set to OFF makes a 480i signal look like a 240p signal, but it's not the same as a native 240p signal... you still get jumpyness from the interlacing being combined on a CRT, and the scanning frequency is the same as 480i, not 240p... perhaps I cannot explain it sufficiently at this time....

So, a 240p signal "sounds" different than a 480i source

they are the same. Just the signal's offset is shifted half a line. This tells the monitor to display the fields on the same height instead of alternating their vertical offset.

I don't have a CRT anymore anyway, just want to use it with a XRGB-3.

Yeah... I still have quite a few that I need to get rid of... While testing this config I was reacquainted with the shrill noise of the CRT at low scanning frequencies.... ear piercing stuff when you get used to a quiet LCD (vent fans being minor depending upon temp).

[Fudoh]

but it's not the same as a native 240p signal..

I know, I know, hell, the Extron's just an interface. I know that it does not change the actual image. BUT with the changed sync offset it should enable 240p scanlines on the XRGB-3's B1 mode. I don't say that it's similar (or better) than upscaling then making 240p out of it using an Emotia, but it sure is easier and worth a try on the XRGB.

[RGB32E]

but it's not the same as a native 240p signal..

I know, I know, hell, the Extron's just an interface. I know that it does not change the actual image. BUT with the changed sync offset it should enable 240p scanlines on the XRGB-3's B1 mode. I don't say that it's similar (or better) than upscaling then making 240p out of it using an Emotia, but it sure is easier and worth a try on the XRGB.

Ahh... I gotcha now... since B1 scanlines don't seem to do anything for 480i/p sources! M:OM is out in retail today... I'll have to run in 480i mode and see how that looks via B1 on my TV....

Wii ->
Component Cable ->
Extron CVC 300 ->
Extron RGB 190 ->
XRGB-3 B1 (D2 RGB) ->
XBR8 PC Input

[AVTrainer]

Just an FYI almost all of Extron's interfaces can do this kind of sync processing, signal conversion and stabilization. Of course you might have a little more problems with the 13W3 ones, or need an extra adapter for the old 15 pin Mac interfaces. Pretty much anything they made after 1994 should get you close, depending on the processing capabilities of the tv/monitor you are plugging into. The different models can also give you different levels of control and other options. Please note that none of these interfaces can do significant signal format conversion (CV to YUV/YPrPb to RGB, etc) they mainly just do electrical signal conversion (RGsB to RGBHV, etc) but if your monitor easily handles 15k signals then you might just get lucky anyways.

This is mainly a note for people having trouble finding the 150's on ebay, or want to save even more cash by buying older models (a lot of 4 RBG118's for just $15). Personally I was always fond of the RGB202vtg since it would also output a test image to ensure proper alignment of the display to the interfaces base signal and shifts vertically as well as horizontally.

If you really want to save a bit more headaches, or want more flexibility, extra inputs (to plug in an xbox, sega, etc), or more processing control it's really worth it to step up to a scaler, line doubler, or other full processing box/switcher. This is especially true if you want signal format conversion from YUV sources to an RGB monitor.

Look for an old Extron 4LDxi or DVS100, or if you want straight video conversion quality a Faroudja LD100 or 400. Pretty much any processor made from the late 90's (for 480i, CV, S-Video and some 480p) or early 2000's (for 480p) to now should handle this kind of task and there are a LOT of them flooding the liquidator market now for very cheap. Some of them are not much more expensive than the 150's and will give you much better image results, especially if they do 3:2 pulldown. You can even find some decent models brand new at cheap prices, like the Ambery Pro Video to VGA converter/switcher for $118.

A scan converter, like the Emotia, while nice for video processing or converting your computer to an old CRT television connection, doesn't really make a lot of sense for getting a hi-res output. You are essentially converting upwards from 15k or 31k RGB to hi-res RGB and then back down to 15k RGB or YUV, though it will do some sync processing as well along the way.

Hope this helps you in your video game adventures and saves you a bit of extra cash for your wallet.

[antron]

I have some information for this thread that may or may not be known: the Extron Emotia can accept a Sync on Green VGA signal. I don't know if it even corrects for the sync signal on the green line, but it does not look too bad, just a little bit of a green tint in dark scenes.

The colors look better if you go through something like the RGB 150xi first, and remove the SoG. But if all you have is an Emotia I bet you could adjust your colors a bit and be happy with the nice 240p image.

This could be very useful for PS2 users or for running emulators on an Xbox 1.

Anyone know if this a completely undocumented feature for the Emotia (or later ones)? I'm not finding any information.

antron

[mmortal03]

Antron and Fudoh, I've actually got what is the opposite problem of most people on this thread, and through some extensive troubleshooting of my own, I've uncovered some things that I thought you guys would find interesting. Maybe you can help me figure out the technical reason for what's going on. To be clear, this is basically an academic exercise, as I've already picked up an HD Box Pro to solve a number of the problems that I'm having from a convenience standpoint, though I wouldn't say that it's a perfect solution, either. In other words, I'm not looking for a "just go and buy X converter and be done with it" response, as I've already done that, and am now just wanting some discussion regarding what's likely happening, and maybe then a more optimal solution can be arrived upon.

Here are the facts.

I've discovered that my LCD screen, an ASUS VW246H, contrary to most panels, will actually display a 240p picture coming from a PS2 over component cable, with proper colors, and this is when the PS2 is set to YCbCr mode (i.e. not requiring the usual RGB setting like most LCD panels). All that this requires is my Blaze component cable as the output (without using the Xploder software), and a 3-input RCA component to VGA breakout cable going into the LCD screen. No converter is necessary.

Based on that, and because this LCD screen model has been listed as having little to no lag, you might think this would make it a well sought after panel. However, now the bad news: when hooked up in this very same configuration, I get an annoying color problem on 480i and 480p games, which I will describe in a bit!

The good news is that at least my LCD panel can display a readable 480i picture when using this same hook up, however headache-inducing it is due to the flicker/jumpiness, and however annoying the color problem is. At least one can view the PS2 system menus, switch to progressive scan if possible, etc, without doing so blindly. Even if I could fix the color problem, I don't think I could play 480i games like this, though -- I'd have to get a deinterlacer.

Okay, now to the main event.

The annoying color problem that I'm having occurs with 480i and 480p material and is where all shades of gray in the picture take on a green hue. By this I don't mean a fullscreen green color; it's specifically only in the areas of the picture that should be gray that get shades of green, with the other colors being pretty much unaffected (you can also see an issue with the blue/green colors of the system menu). I found that for 480p games I could pop in the Xploder disc and get proper grays and everything using one or two of the Xploder 480p "HD" display modes (but not VGA modes) with this setup, but I'd rather have a solution that doesn't require popping in the Xploder disc at all.

I thought, okay, maybe I need to pick up an Extron converter -- maybe it's just that the sync on green isn't getting cleanly stripped by my LCD panel's circuitry for 480i and 480p. In hindsight, I completely forgot the logic that it DOES strip just fine for 240p material, as well as the fact that Extrons don't handle color space conversion from YCbCr.

Anyway, I picked up an Extron SC 210 from eBay, and also got a 5-BNC to VGA breakout cable so that I could pass the signals from the Exton outputs to a VGA port. After testing the Extron in various dip switch configurations with my PS2 still set to YCbCr, you can predict what I found: when simply matching the cable colors with the Extron's inputs the obvious way, it didn't do anything about the color issue, and created other issues which I can go into later if necessary.

At this point I thought I should give the PS2's RGB mode a go and see if I could get everything to work when set to that. After setting the PS2 to RGB, I realized that I'd also need some way of stripping the sync from the yellow composite, because the Extron sync inputs wouldn't take unstripped sync directly from the yellow composite. This is when I got the idea to be creative with the Extron, and is one trick that I hadn't read elsewhere that I thought you'd appreciate.

Instead of plugging in the R, G, and B cables from the PS2 into the Extron the obvious way, I instead plugged in R, Y, and B, with the Yellow going into the Green input on the Extron. Doing this had the effect of stripping the sync from the composite signal instead of from the green signal (which, to my understanding, shouldn't be present on the Green in RGB mode, anyway). For the Green cable, I bypassed going through the Extron completely and patched it directly to the Green BNC connector of my BNC to VGA breakout cable going to the monitor, using a female RCA to female BNC coupler.

The result?

This worked just fine for 240p material, but on 480i and 480p material, now I got a fullscreen pink tint/hue, so still no dice! I exhaustively tried all the different dip switch configurations here, but none had any effect. It's weird, because you'd think passing the RGB and sync signal in this way from the PS2 though the Extron would produce something approaching a standard RGBs or RGBHV signal that any VGA monitor would like, but I guess not, particularly at these resolutions.

To rule out any other possible causes, I tested this same Extron "bypass Green" configuration with an older LCD monitor of mine that I had lying around. It turns out that this older monitor would ALSO accept 240p, and, encouragingly, 480i with the correct colors, but 480p would only work when NOT bypassing the Green (meaning that the PS2 must oddly be sending sync along the Green for 480p RGB). At least this demonstrated that there was nothing wrong in theory with this "bypass Green" conversion scheme, just that my main LCD monitor can't properly display RGB color from a PS2 for 480i or 480p in this arrangement.

Any ideas WHY this is? Since my LCD monitor can take other RGB signals from other computing devices just fine, why would you get the right colors for 240p but not 480i? What I'm ultimately wanting to know is if there is any way to trick my monitor into handling the YCbCr color space properly for 480i and 480p material, while leaving the way it handles 240p untouched.

[Fudoh]

the sync stripping trick on the Extron is neat! I've recommend a similar thing when it comes to the Extron matrix switches. They refuse to switch composite video for sync when fed to the sync inputs, but they're ok with if you feed it to one of the color inputs. Never thought about the RGsB to RGBs/HV conversion though. Really nice!

This worked just fine for 240p material, but on 480i and 480p material, now I got a fullscreen pink tint/hue, so still no dice!

You have to understand that the PS does output RGBs for 240p and 480i, but does output RGsB for 480p. So for 480p you don't even need the "yellow" pin. On the other hand this should usually mean that 240p and 480i give the same result and 480p is different....

I'm pretty sure that the fault comes down to the signal processor in your monitor. Likely the deinterlacer only works for component signals and gets confused when RGB is fed in an interlaced signal.

I can't think of an easy setup to make all three resolutions work. What I'm most surprised about is that 480p via the Xploder gives you different results than native 480p with the XPloder. That doesn't really make any sense. The green tint might be caused by the signal processor just not calibrated to component signals.

If you really want to keep it at one PS unit, you might probably need look into an setup that uses a splitter and a switch, so you can route your 480i signals through the HDBox while the progressive signals are routed around it. If you use your Playstation 2 often, two units are much easier to handle. One set to RGB for 240p and 480p - you should be able to make that work with some Extron trickery and one set to component for interlaced output...

[mmortal03]

This worked just fine for 240p material, but on 480i and 480p material, now I got a fullscreen pink tint/hue, so still no dice!

You have to understand that the PS does output RGBs for 240p and 480i, but does output RGsB for 480p. So for 480p you don't even need the "yellow" pin. On the other hand this should usually mean that 240p and 480i give the same result and 480p is different....

I'm glad I was right on that one! I thought I might just be crazy.

Unfortunately, 480i and 480p content both get the pink tint/hue when running the RGB color space with my main monitor to it through the Extron, contrary to the usual situation you describe.

I can't think of an easy setup to make all three resolutions work. What I'm most surprised about is that 480p via the Xploder gives you different results than native 480p without the XPloder. That doesn't really make any sense. The green tint might be caused by the signal processor just not calibrated to component signals.

Yep, 480p games will work with the right colors with the Xploder disc when the PS2 is set to YCbCr, for a couple of the 480p "HD" modes, I think the 72Hz and 75Hz scan rates if I recall correctly. I think 60Hz was still pink, and 85Hz wasn't supported by my monitor, but don't quote me on that.

An aside regarding using the 72Hz and 75Hz scan rates with the Xploder disc, I got the feeling that it sped up the gameplan somehow, for example in Super Street Fighter II Turbo and Street Fighter Alpha Anthology, but maybe I'm crazy and I'd just fiddled with the Turbo levels in those instances.

I'm pretty sure that the fault comes down to the signal processor in your monitor. Likely the deinterlacer only works for component signals and gets confused when RGB is fed in an interlaced signal.

That's the thing, though -- it gets the 240p colors right, but the 480i and 480p colors wrong, so I don't think we can narrow it down to deinterlacing.

My guess is it's something to do with the Xploder disc being able to pass higher scan rates than the standard output, with my main monitor just happening to like those, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to know whether scan rates can affect color decoding.

If you really want to keep it at one PS unit, you might probably need look into an setup that uses a splitter and a switch, so you can route your 480i signals through the HDBox while the progressive signals are routed around it. If you use your Playstation 2 often, two units are much easier to handle. One set to RGB for 240p and 480p - you should be able to make that work with some Extron trickery and one set to component for interlaced output...

This is exactly what I was considering. Basically, get some RCA splitters, and run RGB into one of the switch's input, and RYB into another of the switch's input, and plug the output into the Extron, and bypass the Green however it needs to work. I'd have already done just that, but the problem is that there were also sync issues with the Extron that I left out for brevity's sake tha tmake it a no go.

My used Extron's sync output is plagued with a visual "hiccup" of sorts whenever certain changes in contrast occur on screen, causing both of my LCD panels to go black and have to re-scan. My guess is something in the internal circuitry has just gone bad with the Extron, given that it's used and old. Some examples of when this happens are: When pausing the game in PS1 Steet Fighter Collection as well as between each round, and also when finishing an opponent with a Super Combo in SSFIIT (the yellow and red sun explosion in the background). It also does this with SFA3's M. Bison Boss stage on Street Fighter Alpha Anthology, making it completely unplayable, as every time a lightning flash occurs in the background it causes a re-scan! These issues don't occur when directly connecting to the monitors, so I know it's the Extron. I also tested my DVD player/TV Tuner through the Extron, and there was banding/pulsing on high contrast portions of the screen, for example scenes of bright sunlight streaming into a room behind the actors on screen, or on white backgrounds of commercials. I guess I got a dud Extron.

Now that I've gotten an HD Box Pro, it actually solves much of the practical problems, but in terms of picture quality, I do get somewhat noticeable translucent horizontal lines rolling up the screen when looking at it up close (people in other threads say this is some sort of ground loop issue). I also get a light, sparkly curved Moiré pattern that rolls vertically up the screen on higher resolution content when looked at up close. Both of these are probably the same issue, and if I can solve them, I'll probably just leave it at that. On the other hand, coming up with a way to fix the directly connected green-hued issue with some sort of custom made gizmo to trick my monitor into handling the colors properly on 480p would be amazing. The monitor actually displays the 240p and 480p content very cleanly when directly connected, compared to going through the HD Box Pro.

[Fudoh]

These issues don't occur when directly connecting to the monitors, so I know it's the Extron

the problem itself is common and due to voltage peaks in the signal. Could very well be because of your RGB cable. The Extron unit is likely operating within specs.

[mmortal03]

These issues don't occur when directly connecting to the monitors, so I know it's the Extron

the problem itself is common and due to voltage peaks in the signal. Could very well be because of your RGB cable. The Extron unit is likely operating within specs.

This could very well be the case, but I think it may be my analog Component switcher, instead. The rolling noise that I was seeing when going through the HD Box Pro seems to have been primarily occurring due to it, for one. I just tried splitting the component Green that was coming out of it, then passed one end of this to the HD Box Pro and the other back to an unused composite yellow RCA-in on the switcher, and this significantly reduced the rolling noise.

Since I was also using this same switcher along the chain with the Extron, I'll have to rig something that excludes it from the equation and then re-test the Extron to see if it makes any difference.