Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

[Ed Oscuro]

Its amazing how powerful the internet has made certain individuals. People who have the internet feel they own it, and everything on it.

So don't put your wives on the Internet, problem solved.

In the meantime...

[Elixir]

considering the OP is the size of the internet I can see where the confusion comes from

[mjclark]

Its amazing how powerful the internet has made certain individuals. People who have the internet feel they own it...

Guess what? They do!

[Ed Oscuro]

Despite, the regrettable brawl-like turn

Don't tease me with Robotron memories like that.

[-Bridget-]

My thoughts on emulation like this are fairly simple.

As a fan of Cave (and other such devs), I always, always would rather BUY their products when I can, rather than emulate them (particularly since I hate MAME so much and dont want to put up with it). But this just isnt always doable. Look at games like, say, Progear for instance. I love Progear. But Cave never ported that game, so if I want to play it AT ALL.... I gotta use stupid ol' MAME. I may not LIKE it, but it solves the problem.

And if Progear were to be ported tomorrow? I'd go buy it right away, despite already having the MAME version.

And not everyone has or wants a 360.... particularly a JP unit, which Ketsui requires. The existence of the Ketsui ROM for MAME gives those who dont have one a chance to play this great game. It also gives others that might be considering an actual purchase a chance to try the game out beforehand.... and then there's still plenty of motivation to buy the game after getting the ROM, for things like the wonderful X mode and easy replay saving and features like that.

[bcass]

Hopefully, they'll be wanting to push shmups - assuming all is on the up at cave - red katana doesn't seem to be doing well (?), their other games will probably take priority.

And on the wider picture - who now wants to fund shmup development when a market leader's release is 5/6 months old and emulated? Does someone at cave, or a publishers insurance company, loses their shit over it? Does this end up bringing unwelcome attention upon emulators?

Pah, perhaps I worry for naught and the yard stick will be how well treasure do with their radiant silvergun port. After all, we know how much everyone thinks it is all about treasure

You're worrying over nothing IMO. If you hadn't noticed, there are *very* good reasons to buy the ports, even if the games have been emulated - leaderboards, achievements, easily sharable replays, extra modes (some of them very good in their own right), HD graphics, etc.

[bcass]

Maybe we can get SOF-WTN to send his DDP Campaign to MAMEDEV guys for decapping.

It doesn't need decapping, it just needs dumping.

[Despatche]

If CAVE can't even get the PCB off of him, I don't see how any westerner could.

[captpain]

Its amazing how powerful the internet has made certain individuals. People who have the internet feel they own it...

Guess what? They do!

Quiet, Communist!

[emphatic]

If CAVE can't even get the PCB off of him, I don't see how any westerner could.

Cat-burglary?

[Despatche]

Too bad Dangun Feveron doesn't have a campaign edition!

[bcass]

If CAVE can't even get the PCB off of him, I don't see how any westerner could.

Have Cave even tried? I don't recall reading anything suggesting they had. Anyway, it's not that important so long as someone at Cave can remember what the differences are. Wouldn't be difficult for them to 'simulate' it in a port.

[emphatic]

Don't be too surprised should a port of Do-Donpachi (including the Campaign version or a similar mode) just "pops up" from CAVE. They like to be secretive about their plans and often deny stuff that's coming just around the corner.

[neorichieb1971]

Its amazing how powerful the internet has made certain individuals. People who have the internet feel they own it...

Guess what? They do!

Well its the forum culture that makes people feel like they should have things they don't really need. In scerario A you have people living on pot noodles so they can afford X Cave PCB. In scenario B the PCB is emulated and therefore free and the consumer can therefore go back to eating roast dinners.

We have all seen pictures of cabinets, PCB's and so forth thinking "Man I gotta have that".

As stated before, most of these games have run their course. Ultimately by paying heavy premiums your just paying for the privelege of having it first. Ultimately some day people will get that same something for free. Its not a new custom, I've lived with it for years. I do however know the feeling of hating the system. Sometimes you feel the system let you down. You take that as a lesson or take more punishment down the road.

[cools]

Damn, no cheap PCBs for me.

People pirate, emulate, buy ports, buy PCBs. There are pros and cons of each. Do whatever suits you and enjoy playing the games.

[neorichieb1971]

Damn, no cheap PCBs for me.

People pirate, emulate, buy ports, buy PCBs. There are pros and cons of each. Do whatever suits you and enjoy playing the games.

The noble clan don't like to be seen with beggars though. Surely you get that. Doesn't the place feel small when things get equal?

[Ed Oscuro]

In scerario A you have people living on pot noodles so they can afford X Cave PCB. In scenario B the PCB is emulated and therefore free and the consumer can therefore go back to eating roast dinners.

One of these days you're going to stop writing complete and utter nonsense.

Unfortunately that will probably be coincident with the end of neorichie's time on this earth.

I don't see how making the (flawed, but perversely enjoyable) argument that putting priorities on good food (so you can live longer) over disposables has much to do with...damn, well, anything really.

Really don't know what to say. If I didn't know better I'd say you were trolling. It's about as valuable as a troll post.

[captpain]

Too bad Dangun Feveron doesn't have a campaign edition!

I thought I was the only person that admits to liking that game.

[Ed Oscuro]

Meow?

[spl]

PCB purists keep forgetting.. PCBs are not meant to be owned by individuals. They are meant to be sited in arcades and played by all for a small fee. (Yes, this means your precious PCB is a whore too, neorichieb1971, but MAME puts out for free )

Ketsui can only be played on a Japanese region X360 anyway - how the hell are we hurting Cave? They simply have not made it available for us.

If anything, this emulation will make it easier for more westerners to learn about Cave and access their games.

The biggest thing that annoys me about this is most of you guys spend more time talking shit about superiority in various things besides actual gaming skill.

[dcharlie]

I don't like emulation and don't use it except if I want to play moon cresta or something as old as that.

<devils advocate> given that we have things like Gamesroom etc where companies want you to purchase the rom to play, is this a defense anymore? The limit to when a game is no longer viable commercially seems on thin ice </devils advocate>

Not that i agree with what i just typed 100% - the whole thing is far from black and white. Both the moral and emu defense side of the argument are a little tired and need some revising.

Here's an interesting one though - would anyone emulating something like Ketsui consider buying the game new on import even if they can't play it (i know there are a number of ins and outs here where this doesn't quite add up but... hey) ? What if Cave set up a donation pot on their website as an alternative ? "Okay, we aren't going to go after you or ask for the game to be removed from MAME - but if you did play Ketsui emulated and you did enjoy it then please feel free to pay what you think that game experience is worth. Suggested tip of $5. Donations over $40 get this exclusive "Ketsui Support Team" B2 poster!"

It'd be interesting to see what , if any, cash came their way. I know it's all pie in the sky stuff, but it'd be interesting to see if any company tries to find new ways to encourage people to pay of their own volition for something that is ultimately outside their control.

[gray117]

PCB purists keep forgetting.. PCBs are not meant to be owned by individuals. They are meant to be sited in arcades and played by all for a small fee. (Yes, this means your precious PCB is a whore too, neorichieb1971, but MAME puts out for free )

Ketsui can only be played on a Japanese region X360 anyway - how the hell are we hurting Cave? They simply have not made it available for us.

If anything, this emulation will make it easier for more westerners to learn about Cave and access their games.

The biggest thing that annoys me about this is most of you guys spend more time talking shit about superiority in various things besides actual gaming skill.

What arcades?

Cave used to take the opinion there games were not for us in any form.

... I'm sure cave would sell ketsui via a western publisher if they could. Its a shit situation, and takes AAAAAAAAAAGes: Cheer up - Australia is pal region, right? You can play deathsmiles in 2011 enjoy! And anyways, aren't imports cheaper than domestics there?

Cave might be shit console marketeers, but it is their right to be, it might be different if they had a competitor. But they don't, there doesn't seem to be one on the horizon and I don't think the ketsui emulation helps that bigger picture, but then maybe I overestimate cave's importance and the visibility of shmups in general...

[neorichieb1971]

In scerario A you have people living on pot noodles so they can afford X Cave PCB. In scenario B the PCB is emulated and therefore free and the consumer can therefore go back to eating roast dinners.

One of these days you're going to stop writing complete and utter nonsense.

Unfortunately that will probably be coincident with the end of neorichie's time on this earth.

I don't see how making the (flawed, but perversely enjoyable) argument that putting priorities on good food (so you can live longer) over disposables has much to do with...damn, well, anything really.

Really don't know what to say. If I didn't know better I'd say you were trolling. It's about as valuable as a troll post.

I don't bite. But I notice you do. Almost all your posts are irrelevant to the topic because you keep on moaning about what others are saying. At least my posts however much you feel are incomprehendable are relative to my opinion about what my opinion on the matter is. Not about belittling what someone else has said. How does "meow" add to this discussion?

I've been here long enough to see patterns in some peoples spending habits. Perhaps they were being OTT in their words but many here have expressed that owning a PCB is more important than eating well. On the opposite side of the coin there are people who just wait for freebies via emulation.

The OP is trying to state that he has viewed several discussions here as uncomfortable reading and is trying to swing the opinion to his own. That emulation has gone too far and reading it here is concerned him enough to post. What I am trying to say is what cools said.. Just enjoy the games. If you let politics get the better of you, forums are not the place to be. Lets face it forums are the one place where everyone is equal and if you can't embrace it without ill feeling your going to be worse off for it.

I do understand the OP's opinion. I have lived with it for 20 years. But now I have given up the fight. Its better to accept that the internet has made beggars of many people. Myself being one of them. However, when it comes to piracy or emulation I let it find me through other people. I do not proactively seek it. If you download Ketsui you have undermined the system no matter how you look at it. Is it right? No, is it wrong? No.. Its what you feel comfortable with. Thats what the topic is really about.

[neorichieb1971]

PCB purists keep forgetting.. PCBs are not meant to be owned by individuals. They are meant to be sited in arcades and played by all for a small fee. (Yes, this means your precious PCB is a whore too, neorichieb1971, but MAME puts out for free )

Ketsui can only be played on a Japanese region X360 anyway - how the hell are we hurting Cave? They simply have not made it available for us.

If anything, this emulation will make it easier for more westerners to learn about Cave and access their games.

The biggest thing that annoys me about this is most of you guys spend more time talking shit about superiority in various things besides actual gaming skill.

What arcades?

Cave used to take the opinion there games were not for us in any form.

... I'm sure cave would sell ketsui via a western publisher if they could. Its a shit situation, and takes AAAAAAAAAAGes: Cheer up - Australia is pal region, right? You can play deathsmiles in 2011 enjoy! And anyways, aren't imports cheaper than domestics there?

Cave might be shit console marketeers, but it is their right to be, it might be different if they had a competitor. But they don't, there doesn't seem to be one on the horizon and I don't think the ketsui emulation helps that bigger picture, but then maybe I overestimate cave's importance and the visibility of shmups in general...

Wasn't Caves latest shooter modifed for consumer purchase?

They will take money however they can get it. Whatever argument they had 6 months ago, they sealed it with that move.

[kamiboy]

Dedicated fans can easily call upon their compassion and solidarity for products or producers of said product that they love and are passionate about. Trouble is that such fans are one in a million so, as the producers, in order to tap into the much more tangible pool of resources coming out of the pockets of more general consumers, who only give a fart about the end product available to them at any given moment, then the onus is on no one but the makers themselves.

If the only way to get to play Ketsui or any other esoteric interest is by going into the second hand market or emulation, both of which benefit the makers equally, then the failure is on part of Cave for not making their products available for easy purchase.

Sure Cave has a legal claim for complaint in case of dumps and emulation but it is more constructive to instead consider the realities of the world that we live in. There are many venues available to host the produce of a developer of Cave's pedigree. There is retail, there is the console download services, there are PC download services and then there is the emergent iPhone market. Each has a potential to tap into the pockets of a different subset of gamers, even if the title is niche a large enough install base might potentially get enough sales to support a release. So the onus is really on Cave to make their stellar titles available on any platform that might make them a sliver of profit.

Of course then Cave also faces some realities, such as they are likely to have a very anemic staff, and no readily available pool of funds at the ready for lavish porting budgets. Even then I have heard some mumblings of SCEJ often playing the part of pompous bafoons by consistently saying no to 2d shooters being ported, or perhaps even being made at all for their PS3 platforms, so there is that.

But at the end of the day the average consumer does not and should not give a fart about any of this, he has money burning in his pockets and it is fair game who gets to put their name on it. Historically anti piracy efforts have been a large waste of the time and resources for all parties involved, if Cave even ever harbored any resentments in that regard I'd say their energy is much better vested in pursuits that might factually make them money instead of ones that theoretically might prevent them from losing hypothetical future profits.

No use discussing pirating habits in terms of blacks or whites, everyone is a pirate in some capacity, it is all one big gray area. You can never stop such practices short of turning the world into a tightly controlled fascist society. So digital commercial goods will always be ripped off in a very sizable capacity, the battle against it is nothing if not futile. The better battle fought is to learn how to turn a profit, piracy or not, and there are ways, otherwise the game, movie and music industries would have collapsed long, long ago.

[Voxbox]

If you hadn't noticed, there are *very* good reasons to buy the ports, even if the games have been emulated - leaderboards, achievements, easily sharable replays, extra modes (some of them very good in their own right) etc.

I'm afraid this will suck the life out of forums like these though.

[PROMETHEUS]

PCB purists keep forgetting.. PCBs are not meant to be owned by individuals. They are meant to be sited in arcades and played by all for a small fee. (Yes, this means your precious PCB is a whore too, neorichieb1971, but MAME puts out for free :P)

Ketsui can only be played on a Japanese region X360 anyway - how the hell are we hurting Cave? They simply have not made it available for us.

If anything, this emulation will make it easier for more westerners to learn about Cave and access their games.

Quoted for truth, really. Barely debatable !
One can only attack Ketsui / DOJ emulation from the "how could it hurt the Japanese shmup market" angle.

[jonny5]

To each their own.....these arguments are silly.

Who cares what anybody else is doing; keep it real for yourself and that's all that matters!

Everybody is acting as if these were the first emulated cave games or something.....I'm willing to bet this release does absolutely nothing to cave's bottom line(in terms of losses) and even less affect on the PCB prices.

[captpain]

Meow?

Then get your business over to the HS thread and give me some Uo Poko competition. I need some drive to conquer ShadowWraith!

[NzzpNzzp]

I'm afraid this will suck the life out of forums like these though.

But the whole point of forums is to complain about things/people, and the ports don't let us do anything like that. No threat.