Emulation; gets too close for comfort sometimes?

[gray117]

Despite, the regrettable brawl-like turn this took in the ketsui dump thread I do feel there is an important part to this that is both suitable and proper to debate.


[Short version]
Is the emulation ketsui and doj coming too soon upon the release of cave's retail products?





[Long version]


Emulation for much of the public became the basis for many players to preserve, share and enjoy games that otherwise may well be now lost. For a minute few this intrigue extended into exploring the actual hardware, functions and techniques behind these collaborations. By and large such material that featured in mame - and other emulators - was no longer seen as profitable, along with a relatively small user base, low profile, debatable terms of violation and, basically, not enough of an interest to anyone to shut down.

However, we’ve now reached a point where mame was never commercialised, and such older material – even if it be simply the brands themselves – are being re-evaluated as profitable. I feel this most notably first started with the Nintendo and the gameboy advance… but… somewhat, more importantly, has gained more traction with the anti-piracy and intellectual copyright interests.

Yet still emulation continued – somewhat more cautiously in cases – but relatively unopposed.

This toleration has existed by way of a magnitude to scale – with some benefits actually feeding back to various brands/developers via the maintenance of a fan base.

However, is that scale becoming increasing insensitive?

The case of ketsui and doj brings to light an important point for me – especially as concerned shmups.

Despite the many failings of cave they are perfectly in their right to release their material as they see fit. And emulation following retail releases so closely can only sour relationships with an emerging developer, as well as confuse potential profits. Why are shmups niche, and what of their lack of visibility and progressive trends? Because development resources are already hard to find for them. And having some of the best examples available for free is a problem in terms of competition. Why would someone stump up capital when they know current first retail releases are emulated?

To many I do realise I’m probably preaching to the choir, and to others I know we’re excited by any developments with these games. But, I can’t help feeling that emulation of this kind may well punish not companies after a ‘second dip’, but also companies - particularly of shmups - trying for their first.

I get why support of cave via Microsoft/apple may not be the way that many want to see their money go – I can’t understand why in this case the suggestion of merchandise also seemed to turn a sour reaction.

And yeah, I don’t collect many pcbs at all and I feel emulation serves a good purpose. But I don’t feel entitled to play something I can’t afford either; I at least try to acquire a used copy before emulating personally. I do appreciate that this is not how everyone is going to use emulation - but would like to think many follow similar practices.

As for existing retail routes, I think its inappropriate to force a developer’s hand – I think emulation in general takes quite a risk doing that these days… I know its agonising being a fan and waiting for small companies like cave; but confusing their first dip of what properties they still have 'untainted' seems difficult to resolve... and the very least I'm afraid it will forever, rightly or wrongly, put them off official pc retail game development; and again - what if that route was something they wanted to explore with their future arcade development?

[austere]

[I took a rain check on this post ages ago, here is the promised reply.]

I may as well get this over and done with. I actually stored an extensive reply but I forgot to create a tunnel to the machine where the files exists. Now it's several latitudes away, so here we go again.

Despite,

Eight characters in and you already made an irritating punctuation error. I don't mind errors per se, in fact I'll probably end up making a few in this post. That said, your style of writing is extremely annoying to me. I feel that I'm going to have to edit the sentences that I reply to, just to help them make more sense. Of course, you can tell me if you think I've changed the meaning of them. I had to substitute some words to remove all the flowery language, which irritates me as well. To reiterate, understand that I could not respond to this any other way without stabbing myself in the face. Wherever I quote gray117 verbatim, I shall use his original screen name:

Emulation for much of the public became the basis for many players to preserve, share and enjoy games that otherwise may well be now lost.

Don't forget the ability play these games on a different medium, any where, any time you want.

For a minute few, emulation extends into exploring the actual hardware, functions and techniques behind these games.

Which for many games, is more fun than the actual game itself.

Material that featured in emulators was no longer seen as profitable, there were only a few users and thus not enough interest shut it down.

Scheisse erzahlen.

However, we’ve now reached a point where mame was never commercialised

You don't reach a point that you already started at. MAME was never going to be officially commercialised. Unfortunately, some people rip it off (violating the license) and sell PCBs with a zillion and one games on it. If MAMEdevs had access to decent/free lawyers, such violations might be fewer in number, though.

Such older material -– even if it is simply the brands themselves –- are being re-evaluated as profitable.

So what? You don't want them to make new games? New "brands" and so on? Are you aware of the original intention behind the creation of copyright laws? The laws have been perverted by lobbyists and they've managed to convince people that you can actually own an idea. Then the moralists (like you and a few others) have come on to tell us how immoral/evil it is to disobey such laws. The concept itself is beyond reprehensible, all of your ideas are derived from other's and the world around you. There is no original and independent thought, it is impossible. All possible thoughts are already embedded in the universe.

That might seem like hyperbole to some, but it really strikes at this issue. There is no reason you should care that some marketing scum thinks they can make a profit on an old idea. It's much better to laugh at them, best to overthrow your government and enact better laws, but meh, anarchy is a privilege of only a certain class.

In short (and to bring it down a few notches), we don't care if they think it's profitable, we want Ketsui 2. We don't want to buy Ketsui 50 times over the next 5 years.

I feel this most notably first started with the Nintendo and the gameboy advance... but... somewhat, more importantly, has gained more traction with the anti-piracy and intellectual copyright interests.

Haha, what? Intellectual copyright interests? I think you're confusing "Intellectual property" (the most retarded construct ever invented by cockroaches -- it pains me to have to use this term in technical documents) and copyright, which I have covered above.

Yet still emulation continued relatively unopposed.

How would you oppose emulation? Thought crime laws? In fact, such laws already exists in several countries and we'll see them extended as time goes on. It would be interesting if they finally extend it to reverse-engineering, thus terminating society in these decadent nations. Good riddance.

This toleration has existed by way of a magnitude to scale – with some benefits actually feeding back to various brands/developers via the maintenance of a fan base.

Magnitude to scale? Can you rewrite this sentence without attempting and failing to use flowery language? I haven't got a clue what the first part means. Also, yes, as I have mentioned several times, emulation of Ketsui and Dai Ou Jou in MAME is extremely beneficial to Cave.

However, is that scale becoming increasing insensitive?

Is this what you mean by an insensitive scale? Or do you mean we're insensitive? Just what are you trying to say?

The case of ketsui and doj brings to light an important point for me - especially as concerned shmups.

You're a concerned "shmups"?

Despite the many failings of cave they are perfectly in their right to release their material as they see fit.

I'd say of all the game companies, they've failed the least of all. You can cry all you want about region locking et cetera, Cave themselves have hardly done anything wrong in my eyes. It's up to them to release the games in a format and on a medium they believe is profitable. It's up to us to do whatever the hell we want.

And emulation following retail releases so closely can only sour relationships with an emerging developer,

Sour which relations? Between whom, for that matter? Cave is not "emerging", if that's who you meant. Perhaps you meant 5pb, in which case pfft. Do you mean publishers? The fact that I have to guess so much about what you're writing is the reason most people ignored what you typed up. If you wrote more coherently, the post directly below mine would not have been written.

as well as confuse potential profits.

Why are shmups niche, and what of their lack of visibility and progressive trends?

There's a whole cancer thread dedicated to just that topic on this forum. Though Udderdude's initial reply in that thread touches on the answer, the truth of the matter is a bit more complex. For the most part if you look at the gamers rather than the games, you'd have a pretty good (though incomplete) answer. Anyway, I don't know what you mean by progressive trends? One man's "progress" is another's retrogression.

It's because development resources are already hard to find for them.

While this is a fact, it is only true due to the "problem" itself.

To have some of the best examples of them available for free is harsh competition.

Well then, like I said, if you want better games and more fans, you should rejoice that Ketsui and Dai Ou Jou are now emulated in MAME.

Why would someone stump up capital when they know current first retail releases are emulated?

You mean the publishers? They know it'll sell somewhat, though it's always a gamble. Ketsui did quite poorly because they took too long to release it from the time it was available at the arcades. Also, people's taste in style degraded into to a loli-fest since its release. Eventually, even the greatest games can vanish into obscurity. This is why emulating it was important -- it gives us time to forge a new, larger following.

To many I do realise I’m probably preaching to the choir,

Only in your head.

and to others I know we’re excited by any developments with these games.

Or you know, in out-right support of the move to emulate them.

I can’t help feeling that emulation of this kind may well punish not companies after a ‘second dip’ [i.e. second retail release/reprint], but also companies - particularly of shmups - trying for their first [retail release].

Like I said, there wasn't going to be a reprint. Ketsui emulation will not really have a great effect on port sales. Who knows, maybe a few additional people will pick it up for the extra mode/online leaderboards et cetera, after they discover Cave and buy their newer games.

I get why many don't want to see their money go towards the support of cave via Microsoft/apple -– I can’t understand why in this case the suggestion of merchandise also seemed to turn a sour reaction.

People are free to support whatever they want with their money. As such, it's good people are able to try out Cave games without having to fork over some money first. There's no risk and if they like it, well, they'll know who to come back to when they want some more. On the other hand, if they're idiots and don't like it, well, they can support whatever it is that idiots support these days.

I don’t feel entitled to play something I can’t afford either; I at least try to acquire a used copy before emulating personally.

Yet you feel entitled to prevent those without the means to afford such things from getting them. Avoid moralising, it's pathetic, pre-historic even. If you are happy supporting Cave by paying for games, good for you. So do I. Don't extend your own values to a system others should conform to. It's sickening.

I know its agonising being a fan and waiting for small companies like cave; but confusing their first dip of what properties they still have 'untainted' seems difficult to resolve

What is more difficult to resolve is what it is you're trying to say. Rewrite this, please. Also note, the moment you release your game on the Xbox 360, it's going to be ripped within hours. It's "tainted" upon release, so to speak.

I'm afraid it will forever, rightly or wrongly, put them off official pc retail game development; and again - what if that route was something they wanted to explore with their future arcade development?

Yeah ... I wouldn't worry about that.

Anyway, try and keep your corrections on topic. Almost every single reply I gave you was already contained in what people have already posted in the Ketsui thread. This was another hour of my life I'm never going to recover. As for THE's post,

Emulation never is really for preservation, it just a nice word used to distract from the real reasons: narcissism of the emulation developers, getting attention from the kids and having power about them.

Believe it or not, "emulation" for the most part, is for preservation, enhancement and even fun. The last part is really important. It's extremely satisfying to play a game after writing code that supports it. Way better than writing a game btw, there's no where near as much work involved. Instead, there's a lot more fun and contrary to what you said later in this thread, it is challenging if you have specific performance and accuracy requirements.

Also, why is it that whenever someone feels like doing something that requires skill (and I'm not saying this is the case here, I'm making a general observation), those who crawl under them claim it's for narcissism. Simply living takes away resources from those who want to do likewise, it is a selfish action and thus a form of narcissism. I'm not saying there's a lot of assholes in the scene, believe me, there's a highly concentrated toxic sludge of assholes seething at the surface. That's why I left ages ago. Incidentally, the majority of them don't actually do all that much though, so they're mostly irrelevant. The few, useful assholes, well, I pity them. Attempting to elevate yourself above others over something so trivial is pathetic.

Anyway, getting attention of kids, while it can be amusing, gets old fast. Do you really think the guys who've emulated a mountain of games really want to waste all that time primarily (as you've claimed) attention-whoring in front of kids? I doubt it! Something tells me the primary reason is because it's fun, secondary being preservation. That's why there's quite a few things unreleased, awaiting a more appropriate time to share.

In case of Mame probably money is involved too (donations and licensing).

Donations perhaps, they should be used towards the projects in question. What better way to collect donations than to allow others to benefit from your work? Is there something wrong with that? I don't do it myself of course, primarily because there is no amount of money that can compensate the loss of my time (which is why I left my old job, by the way). Even materials, I would only purchase if I intend to keep. The only time I'd take donations is if a one-time consumable item/service is required for progress, but I don't really plan to.

Anyway, I don't mind if others do take donations and the few offers I've received were directed to a worthy cause -- i.e. Guru's dumping project, Dr. Decap's project, et cetera. Licensing, well, go read the MAME license for the answer. I will however say one thing. People can benefit from the publicity in another way -- they're able to get a job porting these games to various platforms, if so inclined.

I would say it's the best thing that could happen to Cave. They already licensed those game out or ported them themselves. Like with the DoDonpachi emulation it will generate a lot of new Cave fanboys in the west. While those people are now too poor or ignorant to actually pay for their games, they maybe will do in the future.

Agreed.

This will probably harm Doujin devs and small Shmup developers though, as the interest in other games will drop for some time...but this problem can be overcome by the developers themselves with increasing quality or offering different enough experiences to Cave.

Which is also a good thing for STG fans, wouldn't you say?

For the few people here who are concerned about the market value of their PCBs ... Well, I have a single piece of advice for you: sell me your Mushihimesama PCB before it is too late!!!

[Note: As I mentioned before, the post below mine is in reply to gray117's opening post, not this one. He's free to apply it to this as well however. ^_^;]

[bsidwell]

I can't be bothered to read that wall of text so I'm just going to call you a fag and then go away.

Fag.

[Voxbox]

And yeah, I don’t collect many pcbs at all and I feel emulation serves a good purpose. But I don’t feel entitled to play something I can’t afford either; I at least try to acquire a used copy before emulating personally.

Why?
You're just emptying your wallet for a random persons sake, and not contributing the least to the developers. In fact, your just making yourself less economicaly capable of supporting them.
If you're not buying the latest ports or support your local Cave-supporting arcade, you're not helping at all. And on the flip side, you're not hurting anyone by emulating an 8 year old game.

[gray117]

Oh no don't get me wrong - where possible I buy new - but when out of print; second hand and/or port.

[kernow]

too close for comfort! start stockpiling food and building the shelters!

[Udderdude]

Yeah man one time I was on the bus and emulation was all like up in my face. Learn your personal space, bro.

[Despatche]

Hello gray117, I'm finding it hard to point out exactly what is supposed to be serious or even correct in that post, perhaps you should reword it a little (more like cut out 90% of it because you have no idea what you are talking about)

[Ex-Cyber]

You're about a decade late to this debate. The emu scene pretty much started ripping itself apart in the 1999-2001 timeframe after Neo-Geo and GBA breakthroughs expanded it toward the realm of zero-day warez (people were actually playing leaked SDK demos on GBA emulators before GBA was even released). Emulating a 7-year-old game on a 13-year-old system is quite conservative by emu scene standards, and Ketsui's particular case of development hell isn't representative of the industry in general. Had the PS2 port been successful, there wouldn't really be much to angst about in the latest PGM updates.

[david peterson]

Hmm shall i read moral crusader OP,s wall of inaccurate text or shall i go back upstairs and play more ketsui , this is a tough one .

[gray117]

Hello gray117, I'm finding it hard to point out exactly what is supposed to be serious or even correct in that post, perhaps you should reword it a little (more like cut out 90% of it because you have no idea what you are talking about)

Just in case you're being serious I've put in a short version. Sorry probably thinking about this too much.

In case you're not being serious - You may think I'm wrong - but I'd like to know why you think think so if possible?

Contrary to what a wall of text may suggest I am open to the idea I'm wrong/worrying about nothing.

I'd just like to know what the shmup community think on the matter...

[ratsflif]

These games were made in 2002, they are long past due to be in MAME. I guess it's too soon to emulate Ms Pacman and all the neo geo games because they release them on xblive. Come on....

[neorichieb1971]

Don't preach to a forum that half its members contributed to the Ketsui dump scene.

I don't like emulation and don't use it except if I want to play moon cresta or something as old as that. I will always buy the product when its available irregardless of whom my money is going to. What I agree with 100% is that emulation has destroyed the value of the game. For me, my Cave boards are like my wives. If I have that exclusive touchy feely relationship with it that few others can't have I feel priveleged. If its emulated its like a free whore that anyone will want to creampie anytime they want. Then the product is soiled to me and I lose interest.

But thats just my whacky mind. Others feel the need to spread everything like a virus. Thats cool too.

On the one hand you have people like Cave. But other corperations such as music publishers have made money out of Elvis, Michael Jackson, Beatles and so forth over 50 times over and still make more money every year. Surely you don't want that happening in the games industry?

[gray117]

These games were made in 2002, they are long past due to be in MAME. I guess it's too soon to emulate Ms Pacman and all the neo geo games because they release them on xblive. Come on....

isn't representative of the industry in general..

You're probably right - but I would suggest that the shmup market itself, let alone cave, isn't representative of the industry in general?

And that whilst other games represent double dipping in the home market - that hasn't occured in this case?

[PepsimanVsJoe]

For me, my Cave boards are like my wives. If I have that exclusive touchy feely relationship with it that few others can't have I feel priveleged. If its emulated its like a free whore that anyone will want to creampie anytime they want. Then the product is soiled to me and I lose interest.

Yikes?

[kernow]

CAVE CAVE CAVE





cave guys cave

guys...

[kernow]

HOLY SHIT CAVE AHHH

[bcass]

Don't preach to a forum that half its members contributed to the Ketsui dump scene.

Surprisingly few people contributed. A tiny fraction of forum members actualy (less than 0.35%).

[cools]

Sweet, I'll take your soiled PCBs at their now destroyed value richie

[bcass]

For me, my Cave boards are like my wives. If I have that exclusive touchy feely relationship with it that few others can't have I feel priveleged. If its emulated its like a free whore that anyone will want to creampie anytime they want. Then the product is soiled to me and I lose interest.

[gray117]

Don't preach to a forum that half its members contributed to the Ketsui dump scene.

I don't want to be preaching - I am a little surprised about the reaction to a suggestion of buying ports/merch to help protect emulation and the slowly growing shmups market... particularly with the timing of said emulation appears a little insensitive?

I know ketsui is old - but as far as consoles go it just became a 'new release'.

Back when funds for the board were being raised cave were saying they weren't interested in shmup console ports - feeling it lessened them. Arguably emulation was at one time the only future for ketsui.

When this changed; would it not be responsible to adjust emulation releases in respect of that? Or is it a case of fck em - they had their chance? In a load of other threads we debate if/how shmups will become popular, how to buy cave stock and what we think the next shmup might be. I can't help thinking in this case we're close to biting the hand that feeds?

[emphatic]

CAVE claim to not even have the source code for some older titles or the PCBs in-house even, so being able to just download the data should they want to release them again would be quite handy, don't you think? If the emulation had happened before the port were in fact released, I bet the DOJ BL EX wouldn't need that huge patch.

[NzzpNzzp]

Hasn't the port of Daioujou been out for like half a decade? I think everyone who was gonna buy it probably has it by now.

[bcass]

I don't want to be preaching - I am a little surprised about the reaction to a suggestion of buying ports/merch to help protect emulation and the slowly growing shmups market... particularly with the timing of said emulation appears a little insensitive?

I know ketsui is old - but as far as consoles go it just became a 'new release'.

Many of us on this forum spend many hundreds of £s/€s/$s every year on Cave product. And that's before you even get to the people who buy new PCBs. Ketsui bombed at retail, it's no longer being printed. DOJ/DOJBL also bombed at retail and is also no longer being printed (in fact, all retail copies were supposedly recalled once the bugs started to surface). 5PB stated that there wouldn't be a re-issue. There's very little mileage left in these titles as viable commercial products outside of iPhone ports (a market which is entirely unaffected by emulation). It's *very* unlikely that these games are up for consideration to be sold to Western publishers either. Cave will be pushing the hi-def stuff to the West, not games that are the best part of 10 years old.

[Ex-Cyber]

You're probably right - but I would suggest that the shmup market itself, let alone cave, isn't representative of the industry in general?

In general, yes, but not in the same way that Ketsui's delay is uncharacteristic. Its shmup contemporaries were getting PS2 (and occasionally Dreamcast) ports over 5 years ago.

When this changed; would it not be responsible to adjust emulation releases in respect of that? Or is it a case of fck em - they had their chance?

The latter would be somewhat understandable, considering that the addition of Cave's PGM-based games had already been delayed for years for the sake of console ports, and that depending on who's telling the story it may have been Arika and not Cave demanding the delay.

[THE]

[In here a post will be written by me that destroys everything you just said (and THE's post) when I have the time to read it and reply to it.

Stay tuned.]

Where is the fun of destruction if it served cold Btw. what have I todo with this topic? I only see good in this for Cave...

@neorichieb1971

I will never understand anything you write

[neorichieb1971]

Its amazing how powerful the internet has made certain individuals. People who have the internet feel they own it, and everything on it.

If you invented emulation with rules and guide lines you were a fool to suggest that 20 years later people wouldn't push it to the absolute maximum limits. There is an unwritten law I made myself which I truly believe. Things are appreciated more by the few than the many.


Cools,

I try to buy PCB's after emulation has devaluated them. The idea that I can purchase PCB's at $2000 a time is kind of ridiculous. Even $800 for Ketsui is borderline obscene in my book. Now Ketsui is available on MAME it doesn't make me want to play it any more than I did 6 months ago. I still have not played Ketsui. I always felt in gaming if its not worth paying for its not worth playing.

I will buy it on 360 or on PCB at some stage. I am not whoring out my hobby. If I started downloading roms I wouldn't stop until there were no roms left to play. Then I'd rather take up another hobby altogether.

[emphatic]

For me, my Cave boards are like my wives. If I have that exclusive touchy feely relationship with it that few others can't have I feel priveleged. If its emulated its like a free whore that anyone will want to creampie anytime they want. Then the product is soiled to me and I lose interest.

More like emulators allow people downloading naked pictures of your wife and jerking off, right? Well, the sensation is comparable I guess. What are ports then, their younger sisters?

[gray117]

Many of us on this forum spend many hundreds of £s/€s/$s every year on Cave product. And that's before you even get to the people who buy new PCBs. Ketsui bombed at retail, it's no longer being printed. DOJ/DOJBL also bombed at retail and is also no longer being printed (in fact, all retail copies were supposedly recalled once the bugs started to surface). 5PB stated that there wouldn't be a re-issue. There's very little mileage left in these titles as viable commercial products outside of iPhone ports (a market which is entirely unaffected by emulation). It's *very* unlikely that these games are up for consideration to be sold to Western publishers either. Cave will be pushing the hi-def stuff to the West, not games that are the best part of 10 years old.

Hopefully, they'll be wanting to push shmups - assuming all is on the up at cave - red katana doesn't seem to be doing well (?), their other games will probably take priority.

And on the wider picture - who now wants to fund shmup development when a market leader's release is 5/6 months old and emulated? Does someone at cave, or a publishers insurance company, loses their shit over it? Does this end up bringing unwelcome attention upon emulators?

Pah, perhaps I worry for naught and the yard stick will be how well treasure do with their radiant silvergun port. After all, we know how much everyone thinks it is all about treasure

[Zeron]

Maybe we can get SOF-WTN to send his DDP Campaign to MAMEDEV guys for decapping.

hahahahaha