Dismayed by Mushihime autofire...

[rcgrant]

I was really looking forward to ordering Mushihimesama with my JPS2, but the things I've been reading about the autofire feature have given me some serious reservations. As far as I've been able to figure out, autofire is a hack that's available on some Japanese cabinets, but isn't necessarily meant to be part of the game. Now, it seems that autofire has made its way into the home port as well. The idea of having to exploit quirks of the way the scoring system is programmed in order to get higher scores just doesn't sit well with me (in much the same way as having to commit suicide in Battle Garegga.)

Of course, I understand that I'm not required to play with autofire if I feel it's somehow illegitimate, but the mere fact that it's present in the design of the port is enough to turn me away from the game. Am I just being overly judgemental? Is autofire a more standard part of Mushihimesama than I realize? Or do others feel the same way about it?

[BulletMagnet]

Supposedly in Japan the autofire hack is considered "acceptable" by some gaming authority or other (not sure which)...I personally don't agree with that position, but I think that, at least around this forum, separate high score tables are being kept for those who do use autofire and those who don't (if that's not the case, it should be), so those of us who prefer to play without the simulated hack don't need to feel at a disadvantage overall.

But yeah, I honestly even dislike players exploiting programming glitches in fighting games and such like that, so actually hacking the hardware definitely isn't something that I myself would condone as "official" or whatever. But hey, I'm no authority...

In any case, your dislike of Garegga is because of its play system (which was intentionally programmed in, and are always in effect), while your second thoughts about Mushi are about the hardware hacks (which weren't originally intended, and are optional), so imo you really can't compare the two.

[rcgrant]

That's exactly the problem. Although autofire was an optional hardware hack in the arcade version of Mushihime, it was "intentionally programmed " into the PS2 port, thereby making it an inextricable part of the game. Playing without autofire has become a voluntary challenge.

[Dandy J]

I personally have no problem with exploiting systems/glitches, but in the case of Mushihime it bugs me because not everyone has access to hardware-based autofire.

[zlk]

I played the arcade PCB with no autofire hacks. It is challenging enough to try to finish original and maniac modes on one credit. I also think it is possible to score 900 million without any autofire hacks in maniac mode. So unless you really feel the need to break 1 billion points, I wouldn't get too worried about these extra firing options.

Autofire or not, ultra mode should hold enough challenge for anyone.

[Shearie]

It wasn't autofire that was the hack in the arcades, the hack was about changing the autofire frequencies right?

[black mariah]

This is a fucking stupid thread. Just buy the damn game and play it. Quit bitching about autofire. Honestly, if you have reservations about buying a game because of a fucking OPTION you REALLY need to pull your head out of your ass.

[rcgrant]

This is a fucking stupid thread. Just buy the damn game and play it. Quit bitching about autofire. Honestly, if you have reservations about buying a game because of a fucking OPTION you REALLY need to pull your head out of your ass.

If the thread is stupid, stay out of it. We'll all be better off without any of your rudeness.

If a game is designed such that a hardware hack has become an integral part of playing it, I think the design is flawed, and I want to find whether others feel the same or not. Considering the extent to which people here have debated the technical graphical details of the Mushihime port, it's hardly outlandish to raise question over an actual gameplay issue.

[SAM]

Cave actually programed a software auto fire button to be mapped on their PCB. All three Acrades I found MushiHimiSama did mapped this button. That should be the "FULL AUTO" buton in the buttons config menu.

I fill quite comfortable in using/exploting the "FULL AUTO" button, since Cave has programmed that freature into the game.

For Hardware (sofeware emulated - RAPID SHOT/RAPID FULL AUTO ) auto fire, I am really not quite comfortable in using that, especially if it can really bring difference to your final scores. I feel like cheating if I use them in scores attack.

I agreed to have a seperate the score board for people using this option and people who don't.

[black mariah]

If a game is designed such that a hardware hack has become an integral part of playing it, I think the design is flawed, and I want to find whether others feel the same or not. Considering the extent to which people here have debated the technical graphical details of the Mushihime port, it's hardly outlandish to raise question over an actual gameplay issue.

It's NOT an integral part of playing it. That's the fucking point. It's an OPTION that some people exploit for better scores. Any scoreboard worth a damn differentiates between autofire and non-autofire runs.

[angrycoder]

What the fuck is going on with all the fucking hostility on these boards lately? Jesus christ you guys are turing into a bunch of fucking dicks.

We are a realitively small community of fans for an almost non-existant genre. You'd think there would be better ways for us to fucking communicate rather than talking down to each other and dropping the f-bomb every 2 fucking seconds.

[zaphod]

I'l explain what the autofire hack is. By using a hardware autofire on the full auto button, you can make the main ship shoot without having the options shoot. This allows you to do somethin gcalled "counter banking' very easily (normally you must tap A AND C simultaneously and rapidly to do this) and this vastly increases your score if done properly. this IS a defnite bug in the game to be sure!

The port includes options to simulate the presence of these autofire hacks, which allow someone to replicate the experience of playing on a hcked cabinet, without having to buy an auto-firing controller, which can do the exact same thing for you on the home port, because it is an accurate port.

[EOJ]

What the fuck is going on with all the fucking hostility on these boards lately? Jesus christ you guys are turing into a bunch of fucking dicks.

You'd think there would be better ways for us to fucking communicate rather than talking down to each other and dropping the f-bomb every 2 fucking seconds.

Your hypocrisy is amusing (i.e. condemning others by doing the same thing you're condemning them for). Looks like you're the only one really dropping the "f-bomb" every two seconds.

On topic: this thread is up there with the "ikaruga sucks because it gives me unlimited continues after awhile and I'm too stupid to know I don't have to press the 'start' button to continue every time I lose a credit" threads, as far as pointless threads go. So what if the game gives autofire options? If you don't like some of them, you know what you do? You don't use them. Yes, it's as simple as that folks.

[Nemo]

What the fuck is going on with all the fucking hostility on these boards lately? Jesus christ you guys are turing into a bunch of fucking dicks.

You'd think there would be better ways for us to fucking communicate rather than talking down to each other and dropping the f-bomb every 2 fucking seconds.

Your hypocrisy is amusing (i.e. condemning others by doing the same thing you're condemning them for). Looks like you're the only one really dropping the "f-bomb" every two seconds.

Psst, I think he was being facetious.

[shiftace]

Your hypocrisy is amusing (i.e. condemning others by doing the same thing you're condemning them for). Looks like you're the only one really dropping the "f-bomb" every two seconds. :roll:

Now, see, you appear to not like how he's expressing himself, so you assume he's stupid. I, on the other hand, agree with his claim and with his exasperation, so I assume he's being ironic. Moving right along...

On topic: this thread is up there with the "ikaruga sucks because it gives me unlimited continues after awhile and I'm too stupid to know I don't have to press the 'start' button to continue every time I lose a credit" threads, as far as pointless threads go. So what if the game gives autofire options? If you don't like some of them, you know what you do? You don't use them. Yes, it's as simple as that folks.

Yeah. I agree with all that.

[8 1/2]

I've been experimenting with the auto-fire and I can tell you that using it makes the game a lot harder. Enemies live longer, thus firing more bullets, and cramping the screen. It's a great little risk and reward feature. Really, it's quite complex and somewhat confusing. There are 20 levels of autofire per button (meaning normal fire and auto-fire) so you can see how many combinations are possible. It's quite conceivable that a player could spend many weeks tweaking the shot ratio to their personal level of perfection. Perfection meaning a blend of survival and scoring that work for that player's style.

And this is NOT a stupid topic. A lot of people who own the game are struggling with this aspect and it's a perfectly valid question for someone considering a purchase.

[fraggore]

well ive just got mine and it realy nice. if your worried about the auto fire dont use it and if your not gonna get it because of autofire you will missing out on a top cave game.
well i dont plan to use it

[barmskii]

This is a fucking stupid thread. Just buy the damn game and play it. Quit bitching about autofire. Honestly, if you have reservations about buying a game because of a fucking OPTION you REALLY need to pull your head out of your ass.

Sorry guys but i've got to agree with Black Mariah here, in fact until I read his post I was gonna say the exact same thing. Just buy the damn game, don't use autofire and enjoy an extremely well crafted bit of Japanese shooting heaven.

Jeez sometimes I think people on this forum just look to pick holes in games no matter how goods they are!

I mean no offence by this, and to answer the original posters last question, YES you are being overly judgemental, just buy it!

[DEL]

The child-banking aspect of the chaining in this game is there on purpose. If it wasn't, Mush would just be DDP DOJ 2 with basic chaining.
The Japanese players figured out the best way of optimizing their arcade scores by adding syncronized autofire circuits with on/off states and rigging these circuits up to their arcade cabs.

I'm glad that the extra autofire A+ and C+ options have been added to the PS2 port. It will be nice to compete with the Japanese players on a semi-level playing field for once .

Its fine for rcgrant to ask the question. The A+ and C+ banking methods are fiddly things to master.

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Ps. I won't be getting my copy 'til friday. Judging from 8 1/2's comments so far, the PS2 autofires seem to be effective (unlike our basic autofire circuit in my local arcade).

[system11]

rcgrant: To reject this game over something so trivial that in no way reduces the huge amount of enjoyment to be had, is over judgemental indeed. It's in the same sphere of lunacy as not playing the world releases of Shiki just because of the cover art. Make no mistake, Mushi is an EXCELLENT game, even by Cave standards.

black mariah: Do you have virtual Tourettes? Using course language for fucking effect fucking doesnt fucking work when you fucking overdo it like a fucking Gamefaqs troll.

DEL: Someone explained the JP autofire circuit to me a day ago. It strikes me as cheating to be honest. Also, the circuit they're using is actually a far from optimal setup. Clever, but mistaken. They're coupling the autofire rate with the screen output sync. Often the output and inputs aren't even driven by the same timing crystal, let alone at the same speed. Even if it does work mostly, as soon as there's a hint of slowdown the rate will be entirely screwed as the game engine slows down erratically (or hugely) but the sync speed is /still/ 60hz. Now if they were /really/ clever, they'd tie it to one of the CPU interrupts. It would require soldering to the PCB itself, but they've already gone down the hardware cheat road - it's only a next logical step.

[Randorama]

One thing about autofire: cheat or not, it has been a common practice since the '80s, in Japan. Usually, Arcadia ( the magazine that checks scores in Japan, the heirs of Gamest) does separate charts for auto-fire on score tables. Cave put optional autofire since DP, in the dipswitches: this time however (my intuition based on personal experience), they wanted to do something in the vein of Gradius.
Let me explain why: in old Gradius games (at least up until 3, arcade-wise of course) but also in the Parodius ones, you could multi-tap in order to get more shooting power.In some cases (my memory is fuzzy on this, though) multi-tapping chould change the frequency between options' fire rate and the Vic Viper one. I suppose (well, given also the overall style and the fact that Tsuneki Ikeda stated in the interview "I grew up with Salamander") that the main idea behind the frequency mechanic is based on this.

I wrote an essay on my journal, probably not worth a nobel prize in shmupology, but i will post a link to hope it helps, once i find it.Let me just say that, like it or not, there is a long tradition of autofire hacks in Japan, and when this kind of hacks changes the scoring opportunities, it is clearly stated in the high-score tables.

[GaijinPunch]

If you need a reason to hate the game, do it for the music. W/ the exception of Stage 4, it is all extremely lame... even by cheesy Japanese standards. The game is still fun though. Far from Cave's best effort, but still heaps of fun.

[system11]

If you need a reason to hate the game, do it for the music. W/ the exception of Stage 4, it is all extremely lame... even by cheesy Japanese standards. The game is still fun though. Far from Cave's best effort, but still heaps of fun.

Well that's up for debate - some of us think it's the best music to appear in a shmup for a long time, although stage 2s is weak compared to the rest. This is the first shooter in years to make me seriously crank up the TV volume. Ditto the game, there's variety in this one that isn't to be found in their others, although currently I still think the gameplay in ESPgaluda beats it, but only JUST. I may change my mind over time.

[AAA]

my 2p on this -

on a pure FUN level I don't think mushi benefits from having autofire in very much.

after reading up on the subject and watching sinmoon's awesome replays, i was keen to get practising with the autofire systems and tweak the settings to get the best result.

all the ducking in and out of menus, practising first level over and over etc really took away a lot of the feeling and emotion of the game. the fact that i'm not too good at the game (85M on ultra) is another factor, i can't get a real payoff from the autofire manipulation at the moment right now.

while playing the game with different setups, i found that really i just wanted to play through the game, aiming for better scores through knowing the game, good bullet dodging while being amazed by brilliant graphics, sounds and intelligent gameplay design at the same time.



i've now gone back to original mode for the time being, perhaps I'll give the other modes another go when someone has definitive info on the best PS2 autofire settings and how to use them.

[system11]

the fact that i'm not too good at the game (85M on ultra) is another factor, i can't get a real payoff from the autofire manipulation at the moment right now.

85M on ULTRA = "not too good"?

People have really screwed up measuring sticks here.

[sffan]

Maybe I just don't know what the deal is here, but isn't autofire when you hold down the fire button to get a continuous shot which also causes you to move slower? It DDP style, right? Tap to move faster, hold to slow down. What's the problem? Otherwise you'd be constantly tapping and wearing out your thumb.

Anyway Cave/Taito obviously "meant" it to be this way for the port, so it's not a hack.

[BulletMagnet]

Go back up to Zaphod's post a little less than halfway up; the "autofire" we're talking about here is not the "default" autofire, but an option found in the port to simulate a modification on the actual cabinet hardware which, if used, would allow players to score higher than if they used the "default" settings.

As for them "meaning" for it to be there, I tend to think that it wasn't originally intended, but rather they added it to the port simply because it was so commonly found in the arcades that a lot of the Japanese players would have felt at a disadvantage score-wise just playing on defaults on the port.

[AAA]

85M on ultra
sorry about that, my bad
i meant 85M on Arrange

thanks for spotting that

[sffan]

Go back up to Zaphod's post a little less than halfway up; the "autofire" we're talking about here is not the "default" autofire, but an option found in the port to simulate a modification on the actual cabinet hardware which, if used, would allow players to score higher than if they used the "default" settings.

As for them "meaning" for it to be there, I tend to think that it wasn't originally intended, but rather they added it to the port simply because it was so commonly found in the arcades that a lot of the Japanese players would have felt at a disadvantage score-wise just playing on defaults on the port.

Okay, so if everyone just played on full default settings, then there would be no controversy, right? If you select that option and then complain about it then you may be an idiot. Don't select it if it bothers you. I don't see what's wrong with having more options if they're not forced on you.

[bpe]

It might be less confusing to call it the firehack, or something

Anyway I just wanted to add that today at Hey! I saw two pro's playing and interestingly, none of them used the A+ and C+ buttons (which indeed appear as a fourth and fifth button, so you can use just A and C if you want). Not sure if this means they're not going for score at all, or what, but it's probably not ignorance -- one was going through Maniac like a walk in the park, the other played Ultra and refused to die for quite a while.

So yeah, claims about "the japanese this" and "the japanese that", maybe some of them don't like the idea of the exploit all that much either, who knows.

My take on it:
For me, once you hack the hardware, you're into la-la-land. Might as well solder on an auto-bullet-dodger or something.

Is it stupid to worry about this for the PS2 version ? Well yes and no, obviously it must be important to a lot of people to be able to compare scores, otherwise the hardware hack wouldn't have been "integrated" into the PS2 version -- fearing sales might tank because homeplayers would have no way to compare scores, perhaps ? But now that it <i>is</i> there, the problem isn't solved because now buyers feel they must use a cheat to level the playing field. So yeah, if you care about measuring up to other players it's not judgemental at all.