Will the PS2 be the last great console for 2d shmups?

[Obiwanshinobi]

The point is how does playing old games add any value to a console, much less more value than having new games on a console?

I'd say value is about quality of games rather than their age.

Was the PS2 a great shmup console because of its numerous Saturn ports?

Such as? I can think about exactly two Saturn games ported to PS2, one being Panzer Dragoon (which may very well be a port of the PC version rather than Saturn) and I don't even recall that other one's name.
Oh yes, there was NiGHTS too (I guess the Saturn mode counts as a port, albeit crappy one), so make it three.

Was the Saturn a great console because of its 16-bit ports?

I believe most of 2D arcade games ported to Saturn originated on 16-bit hardware indeed.

You perhaps may enjoy living in the past indefinitely, but for the rest of the world that has thoroughly enjoyed and played their fill of those exact titles in the past, we look forward to new games to continually expand our horizons and experiences, otherwise the shmup genre would become a stagnant non-living mass that continuously eats itself.

I'm sure the genre won't die off as long as PC (or any other platform offering developers this much freedom) is alive and kicking.

Probably worth pointing out that there is, and never has been any argument regarding which current gen console is superior for shmups. The 360 has ownership of the genre.

I'm under the impression that PC keeps getting more new shmups than any this gen console. If I'm right about that, "ownership of the genre" is an exaggeration.

[Skykid]

I'm under the impression that PC keeps getting more new shmups than any this gen console. If I'm right about that, "ownership of the genre" is an exaggeration.

Not in console terms. This thread is about consoles.

[dunpeal2064]

If I had to chose only two consoles that I could ever own and play shmups on, the ps2 would not be either of them. I would pick an xbox 360 and a saturn. If I could add a 3rd, It'd be a genesis. Don't get me wrong, Gradius V is great. Shikigami 2 is pretty fun as well, and Raiden 3 was cool before the 4th came out. (although I still dig the stage 2 music) But that just doesn't add up to what other consoles have brought to us in way of shmups.

After trying out both deathsmiles and mushifutari, I haven't touched my ps2 in quite a while (aside to play Druken Master every night)

and on a side note, I absolutely am loving Mushifutari. Best x-mas gift evar

[manaka]

I'd say value is about quality of games rather than their age.

And who's to say the titles on the 360 don't have value? Besides you?

Such as? I can think about exactly two Saturn games ported to PS2, one being Panzer Dragoon (which may very well be a port of the PC version rather than Saturn) and I don't even recall that other one's name.

Exactly. The PS2's shmup library was not made from playing old classics (like how the current PS3 is, and what you claim is the most important point) but on new titles and arcade ports. Just like the 360 is now!

I'm sure the genre won't die off as long as PC (or any other platform offering developers this much freedom) is alive and kicking.

1. We're talking about consoles.
2. What number of PC shmups of note would you be referring to that would establish such a precedent?

[Obiwanshinobi]

And who's to say the titles on the 360 don't have value? Besides you?

Did I say anything along those lines? It's not I who first brings up Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun to prove the strength of 360 shmups library, then disses PlayStation Classics for "not being PS3 shmups".

The PS2's shmup library was not made from playing old classics (like how the current PS3 is, and what you claim is the most important point) but on new titles and arcade ports. Just like the 360 is now!

The PS2's shmup library is mostly the PSX shmups library thanks to the backward compatibility. When I think about PS2 exclusives and exclusive-to-PS2 ports I'd place somewhere near my personal top 10, Gradius V, Psikyo collections and Fantasy Zone Complete Collection come to mind. Other stuff is either not quite my cup of tea (Alfa System, Success, Cave), or so badly ported/emulated that I'd rather play it on MAME. PSX oldies is where it's at for me.

We're talking about consoles.

You do?

You perhaps may enjoy living in the past indefinitely, but for the rest of the world that has thoroughly enjoyed and played their fill of those exact titles in the past, we look forward to new games to continually expand our horizons and experiences, otherwise the shmup genre would become a stagnant non-living mass that continuously eats itself.

You blew quite an enormous horn right there for somebody who's just talking about consoles.
To put it bluntly, the genre needs neither consoles nor arcades to survive and evolve anymore. New games may as well continually expand your horizons and experiences on other systems even if there will be no single "shmups console" left.

What number of PC shmups of note would you be referring to that would establish such a precedent?

The number of shmups developed or ported to the PC and various home computers since the beginning of gaming must be pretty great. For instance, Parodius and Thunder Force originated as computer games. At this point in time pretty much everybody can make a shmup. All you need is love. No expensive devkits, no licence fees, no Microsoft's, Sony's or Nintendo's approval needed.
Of course bedroom development rarely brings along games of Cave Story quality, but it's not like genres thrive on and evolve only thanks to masterpieces. The likes of Warning Forever are just as essential ingredient of the mix.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Ive never really understood how the Japanese game industry handles the PC. As there is a fantasic indie community that's genrally light years ahead of the western indie scene. One would of thought all that raw talent would also translate into a healthy commercial game industry on the PC, but instead all that can be found is shitty hentia visual novels and MMOs. Its like theres some strange bemuda triangle when it comes to Japanese commercial PC games.

EDIT Maybe the sheer difference between fan games and commericial games and the fact that theres some great fan games that could make lots of cash if marketed properly but just arnt. Maybe the fact that all this creative talent is somehow lost if or when the authors enter the real gaming industry, is indicative of a industry that is perhaps too rigid or is in some other way stopping innovation from the fan game side.

[manaka]

It's not I who first brings up Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun to prove the strength of 360 shmups library, then disses PlayStation Classics for "not being PS3 shmups".

Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga are enhanced ports, so they have that going for them. But I highly doubt anyone here in this thread is extolling the virtues of the 360 as a shmup console on a few token XBLA enhanced ports alone.

PSX oldies is where it's at for me.

That ends the discussion rather easily then. You enjoy your time pieces, and refuse to look at the current scene. Unfortunately very few people enjoy your view, so please do not get offended if we all think you're crazy when you say as such.

Experiences on other systems even if there will be no single "shmups console" left.

But whoever said there wasn't a single shmup console? I think many members of this board would be in agreement as to where to put their money should one desire a current generation shmup experience.

The number of shmups developed or ported to the PC and various home computers since the beginning of gaming must be pretty great. For instance, Parodius and Thunder Force originated as computer games. At this point in time pretty much everybody can make a shmup.

There's no point in waxing theoretics. Unless you're going to show me this thriving shmup PC scene that outclasses the current console or even arcade scene, you're just talking where the sun doesn't shine. There's a reason why there are only a few major shmup developers around in Japan nowadays, and why they are so popular. Indie games are fine and all, but discounting the big companies like Cave just because they're "big" and not giving them credit smacks of "I'm cool because I go against the trend" and destroys your credibility.

Of course, if all you wanted to do was pout and deny how retail shmups are awful this generation because they're only on the 360 instead of actually attempting to facilitate discussion, then that's understandable too. Just fire off some generic insult and I'll know to ignore you like the guy earlier in this thread.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga are enhanced ports, so they have that going for them. But I highly doubt anyone here in this thread is extolling the virtues of the 360 as a shmup console on a few token XBLA enhanced ports alone.

Right. And if you exclude those "enhanced ports" and other games released on other platforms before, you're left with what?

You enjoy your time pieces, and refuse to look at the current scene. Unfortunately very few people enjoy your view, so please do not get offended if we all think you're crazy when you say as such.

I do not refuse to look at the current scene. Where did you pull that from? I just don't enjoy new-fashioned shmups as much as some old-fashioned ones.

But whoever said there wasn't a single shmup console? I think many members of this board would be in agreement as to where to put their money should one desire a current generation shmup experience.

And whoever said there will allways be at least one shmups console? I can imagine shmups dying off on consoles and in the arcades. I cannot imagine the same happening on home computers. Somebody and their dog will sooner or later make another shmup, another roguelike etc. It's the environment best suited for survival of such obscure genres.

There's no point in waxing theoretics. Unless you're going to show me this thriving shmup PC scene that outclasses the current console or even arcade scene, you're just talking where the sun doesn't shine.

Did I say anything about outclassing the current console or even arcade scene by PC shmups? News to me. They don't need to outclass anything to keep the genre alive and evolving. I'm not that much into recent computer shmups precisely because they tend to have the same issues I dislike about most Cave games, but there's no denying the genre is far from scrapping the bottom of the barrell on the PC. It's the PC where the likes of Hydorah keep coming out, not just Cave clones.

There's a reason why there are only a few major shmup developers around in Japan nowadays, and why they are so popular. Indie games are fine and all, but discounting the big companies like Cave just because they're "big" and not giving them credit smacks of "I'm cool because I go against the trend" and destroys your credibility.

I don't discout "big companies like Cave" (Are they even big? In what sense?) just because they are "big". Dangun Feveron is one of my very favourite shmups, but most Cave games are nothing like it and I don't enjoy their usual fare that much.

[manaka]

Right. And if you exclude those "enhanced ports" and other games released on other platforms before, you're left with what?

The remaining 85% of the titles that have been released on the 360?

And whoever said there will allways be at least one shmups console?

There will always be one major shmup console each generation, because the majority of shmup developers are small companies with limited resources that prevent them from spreading themselves across multiple platforms and remain viable as a business. By coordinating with each other and having the larger companies set up shop on a single platform, they can attract the fanbase demographic and localize it to that platform and build it up as a hospitable environment for other smaller shmup developers to work in, and thus allowing the genre to continue to thrive.

I can imagine shmups dying off on consoles and in the arcades. I cannot imagine the same happening on home computers. Somebody and their dog will sooner or later make another shmup, another roguelike etc. It's the environment best suited for survival of such obscure genres.

And I can imagine that any shmup on the PC will never succeed beyond niche status, thereby inhibiting it as a platform for about 90% of the creative developers out there who design and build games as a means to live. You'll get the intriguing creative shmup here and there on the PC, but as a main platform for housing the genre, the PC can never be.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Actually im with Obiwanshinobi when it comes to PC vs consoles. While the 360 might be the king for big budget titles from Cave or Grev, Its the PC that is the savior of the genre if you consider that its how so many newcommers to the genre found out about shmups and first played them on the PC before moving onto the 360 imports. Shmups are a very underground genre where without the PC doujin scene and the online shmup community most ppl wouldnt even know shmups exisisted. We might all love to hate Touhou but the fact is there that without Touhou and the early Cave shmups on mame, shmups wouldnt be going through the mini revival thats happening atm and many of the 360 and other console titles wouldnt exist.

[Obiwanshinobi]

The remaining 85% of the titles that have been released on the 360?

Is their number too great to type down here without resorting to %?

There will always be one major shmup console each generation, because the majority of shmup developers are small companies with limited resources that prevent them from spreading themselves across multiple platforms and remain viable as a business. By coordinating with each other and having the larger companies set up shop on a single platform, they can attract the fanbase demographic and localize it to that platform and build it up as a hospitable environment for other smaller shmup developers to work in, and thus allowing the genre to continue to thrive.

Why wouldn't they do this on computers? Since Taito Type X is a PC at heart (complete with WinXP), they technically make PC games already. That wouldn't come as a surprise after the Sharp X68000 phenomenon.

And I can imagine that any shmup on the PC will never succeed beyond niche status, thereby inhibiting it as a platform for about 90% of the creative developers out there who design and build games as a means to live. You'll get the intriguing creative shmup here and there on the PC, but as a main platform for housing the genre, the PC can never be.

Are you telling me Cave shmups (or any other modern arcade shmup) have succeeded beyond niche status? Cave may be able to make both ends meet, but even they take other jobs every now and then (such as Shin MegaTen: Imagine on the PC, no less).

[dcharlie]

The PS2's shmup library is mostly the PSX shmups library thanks to the backward compatibility

erm ... really?! I assume this is more a personal stand point rather than a comment on the PS2 shmups library depth... right?

Anyways, i don't see how this is even a debate. X360 seems the clear choice between it and the PS3 if you are chosing between the two . If you bring PS1 backwards compatible games then the PS2 is a better choice than the PS3 given the majority of PS3s don't have PS2 backwards compatibility -and- the PS2 can output at low res, coupled with the much reduced new shmup support on the PS3. Still a good argument for PS2 > X360 but not sure about PS3 > X360.

Also - might have missed something - but why are enhanced ports thrown out of the X360 argument whilst backwards comp. seems to be the cornerstone of the PS3 defense?

[louisg]

Did someone say the ps2 doesn't have oldschool shmups? Just the Taito packs should keep people pretty busy ...

[Obiwanshinobi]

The PS2's shmup library is mostly the PSX shmups library thanks to the backward compatibility

erm ... really?! I assume this is more a personal stand point rather than a comment on the PS2 shmups library depth... right?

Indeed, but seems to me that sheer number of PSX shmups is greater (not sure about that). Also, I've yet to see a 2D game for the PSX as mutilated graphically as Ibara and Mushihime-sama on the PS2.

Also - might have missed something - but why are enhanced ports thrown out of the X360 argument whilst backwards comp. seems to be the cornerstone of the PS3 defense?

While it's true that PS3's backward compatibility stinks a bit (region lock, no PS2 games, no 240p and the likes), I was referring to the PSN stuff rather than backward compatibility as such. What 360's "ownership of the genre in console terms" means in this day and age doesn't give it that much edge over PSN shmups library in my book. All recent home ports of arcade shmups (count them all) may be on the 360, but I don't happen to be terribly fond of the state arcade shmups have been in recently.
Also, I'm not dissing 360's "enhanced ports". Just made a reference to stuff written on the previous page by somebody else.

[Skykid]

Ive never really understood how the Japanese game industry handles the PC. As there is a fantasic indie community that's genrally light years ahead of the western indie scene. One would of thought all that raw talent would also translate into a healthy commercial game industry on the PC, but instead all that can be found is shitty hentia visual novels and MMOs. Its like theres some strange bemuda triangle when it comes to Japanese commercial PC games.

EDIT Maybe the sheer difference between fan games and commericial games and the fact that theres some great fan games that could make lots of cash if marketed properly but just arnt. Maybe the fact that all this creative talent is somehow lost if or when the authors enter the real gaming industry, is indicative of a industry that is perhaps too rigid or is in some other way stopping innovation from the fan game side.

They handle it at retail believe it or not. Akihabara has stores with massive sections of shelf dedicated to PC indie games and they're all very nicely produced. I'm sure the quality varies, but there's probably a lot of great stuff we never even get a hint of in the west (I found the Skygunner doujin game particularly intriguing, looked like Panorama Cotton but with the SG visuals.)

Lots of argument in this thread over nothing. Every games generation has been defined by a single prominent console flying the flag for shmups, and there's never been much of an argument about any of them. Only the PSX and Saturn had similar quantities, but most would agree the Saturn exclusives won out.
The PS3 isn't even in contention for the current generation, so it's not worth the debate. PC stuff is plentiful (and some of it excellent) but also largely doujin, and has limited appeal compared to most commercial shmup releases.

[Elixir]

I was referring to the PSN stuff rather than backward compatibility

What PSN shmups are there? I'll start:

Hitogata Happa
GundeadliGn
Gundemonium
Soldner-X
Soldner-X2
Raystorm HD (also on 360)

What else?

[Obiwanshinobi]

Sonic Wings Special
Zanac X Zanac
R-Types
R-Type Delta
Wolf Fang
Einhänder
Konami Antiques MSX Collection 1&2
DonPachi
DoDonPachi

The point being, you can legally download them at good prices and play on PS3 or PSP from any region.

[Elixir]

None of those are for PSN, nor are they PS3 games.

[Obiwanshinobi]

The point being, you can legally download them at good prices and play on PS3 or PSP from any region.

[Elixir]

And that point would be irrelevant, because they are not "PSN shmups" or "PS3 shmups". They're rehashed games from other consoles.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Not quite unlike Ikaruga, R-Type Dimensions, Radiant Silvergun, RayStorm HD, Shikigami no Shiro III and Triggerheart Excelica.

[Elixir]

All of those have online leaderboards or something new (achievements, modes, whatever), they aren't simply redistributed like PS1 titles are.

You're grasping at straws.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Then again, I would say accessibility (no region lock) and versatility (PSP or PS3) are "something new" for many potential buyers. How many PSP/PS3 owners actually played Zanac Neo, Zanac Special Version or Sonic Wings Special back in the day?

[Elixir]

How many PSP owners actually want to play Zanac Neo, Zanac Special Version or Sonic Wings Special?

[Obiwanshinobi]

How many PSP owners actually want to play Zanac Neo, Zanac Special Version or Sonic Wings Special?

Too few if you ask me.

[Elixir]

And who wants to play shmups on a PSP? Regardless, they're not new games and not made for the PS3.

Your argument seems to consist of "the PS3 has a variety of shmups and can be comparable to the 360's library, after having disregarded Cave shmups entirely because I don't like them".

Is this right?

[Skykid]

Fucking hell.

Obiwan, you're argument is regrettably baseless. Elixir is correct.

Can we end this freaking nonsense sensibly soon?

[Obiwanshinobi]

I have never claimed PS3 to be exactly comparable to the 360. What I'm saying is: since I happen to like shmups available for the PS3 A LOT (more than just about anything by Cave), 360's library of shmups does not represent greater value for my money (and if it comes close, it's thanks to Raiden Fighters first and foremost). I would agree that 360 is of greater relevance for the so called "shmups community" as it's the only home platform you can play certain shmups on, but this kind of relevance, well, evaporates sooner or later as today's addition of DOJ and Ketsui to MAME shows.

Obiwan, you're argument is regrettably baseless.

Which argument exactly? Quote please, not assumptions.

[Elixir]

Ketsui 360 is and always will be, superior to the MAME version.

Half of what you're saying comes from personal preference and has nothing to do with actual facts.

[Obiwanshinobi]

At least I don't make prophecies.