Score in Survival Shmups compared to Scoring Shmups

[TarkanX]

Does score in Survival Shmups matter as much as they do in Scoring Shmups. I don't mean it in the way the way the game designs the scoring mechanics, but in terms of say, a leaderboard or score-board. I suppose the point of survival shmups is to basically survive, and scoring takes significant back seat, whereas the whole point of scoring shmups is to go for score (but this is just my opinion). Would Scoring Shmups then be more related to with games from the late 70s to the early 80s where the main point of the game was to get the highest score, than they would with Survival Shmups? (again, not talking about game mechanics, but in terms of the leaderboard/scoreboard).

Also, where would these games be categorized as:

1941 - Counter Attack - Survival
1942 - Survival
1943: The Battle of Midway - Survival
1943 Kai: Midway Kaisen - Survival
1944: The Loop Master - Not sure, never played
19XX: The War Against Destiny - Not sure, never played
Aero Fighters - Not sure, never played
Aero Fighters 2 - Not sure, never played
Armed Police BatRider - Scoring
Batsugun - Not sure, never played
Battle Bakraid - Not sure, never played
Battle Garegga - Scoring
Blazing Star - Not sure, never played
Blue Wish Resurrection - Not sure, never played
Carrier Air Wing - Not sure, never played
Chaos Field - Scoring
Chorensha - Not sure, never played
Cyvern: The Dragon Weapons - Not sure, never played
Dangun Feveron - Not sure, never played
Darius Gaiden - Not sure, never played
Deathsmiles - Scoring
Dimahoo - Scoring
DoDonPachi - Scoring
Dodonpachi Dai-Ou-Jou - Scoring
DoDonPachi dai-ou-jou DEATH LABEL - Scoring
DonPachi - Scoring
Dragon Blaze - Scoring
ESPGaluda - Scoring
ESPGaluda 2 - Scoring
ESP RA.DE. - Scoring
Flying Shark - Not sure, never played
Gekirindan - Not sure, never played
Giga Wing - Not sure, never played
Gradius - Survival
Gradius V - Not sure, never played
Gunbird 2 - Not sure, never played
Guwange - Not sure, never played
Homura - Not sure, never played
Ibara - Scoring
Ikaruga - Scoring
Ketsui - Scoring
Mars Matrix - Not sure, never played
Mushihime-sama - Scoring
Mushihimesama Futari 1.5 - Scoring
Progear Storm Of Progia - Scoring
Psyvariar 2 - Scoring
R-Type Leo - Survival
Radirgy - Scoring
Raiden Fighters Jet - Scoring
Raiden IV - Not sure, never played
RayForce - Not sure, never played
Shikigami no Shiro II - Scoring
Shikigami No Shiro III - Scoring
Strikers 1945 - Not sure, never played
Strikers 1945 2 - Not sure, never played
Strikers 1945 Plus - Not sure, never played
Strikers 1999 - Not sure, never played
Terra Diver - Not sure, never played
Thunder Dragon 2 - Not sure, never played
Triggerheart Exelica - Not sure, never played
Trizeal - Not sure, never played
Twin Cobra - Survival
Under Defeat - Not sure, never played
Varth: Operation Thunderstorm - Not sure, never played
Vasara - Not sure, never played
Zero Gunner 2 - Not sure, never played


As for why I'm asking about these games specifically, I want to compete in some of them, as many of them are very competitive, but I definitely can't (and I'm sure even good players can't) play all of them to the best of my abilities without suffering somewhere, so I would rather limit the selection and go for games that are very competitive and are based around a high score system.

[BIL]

Provided a shooter's scoring competition isn't completely broken in some way (eg Gun.Smoke: no time limit on boss milking, or Vulgus: possible to suicide for points indefinitely), someone will always play it for score. The original R-Type is generally thought of as a "survival game," but it's got a high score in the Arcadia rankings just like DoDonPachi or Battle Garegga.

The aformentioned DDP and Garegga have involved scoring systems, and well-populated HS threads with some extremely good players, for starters. Neither is everyone's cup of tea (particularly if you dislike enemy chaining or tactical suiciding, respectively), but then no shooter is; make sure it's something you actually want to play first. Nothing wrong with setting a new top score for an underplayed game you've taken a liking to.

[Lance Boyle]

Scoring shmup? Survival shmup? What the hell?

Aren't shmups ideally about BOTH of these concepts? You can't score if you don't survive, and in MANY games the reverse is also true.

I thought shmups have been about scoring since, uh, Space Invaders.

[renardqueenston]

Aren't shmups ideally about BOTH of these concepts?

generally i'd say yes, but there are a number of shooters that have always felt to me as more of an obstacle course with arbitrary scoring because it's required in an arcade setting. r-type and gradius have always felt this way to me (along with most of konami's other shooters), for example.

however, isn't a scoring shmup also always a survival shmup? lance mentioned not being able to score if you're not alive, so by default isn't survival part of it? i can understand a game being challenging but not being about score, but a game about score not having the challenge of staying alive to achieve said score? can't really envision it.

[Taylor]

There obviously a difference between, say, getting 100pts when you shoot something and a game with its level design entirely based around a 1-second chain system.
Or is there?!


Yes.

[Lance Boyle]

There obviously a difference between, say, getting 100pts when you shoot something and a game with its level design entirely based around a 1-second chain system.
Or is there?

Gradius has the former system and even it can be played for score, and doing so benefits survival.

Gradius has extends at 20k and every 70k. You improve your score (and thus, increase your chances of survival) by manipulating the rank and boss-milking. More power-ups = more killing = more points = more lives, although there is the risk involved in playing dangerously to get points.

DoDonPachi may have a more sophisticated scoring system than Gradius, but you can ignore it entirely and just hold down the laser to test your reflexes. No scoring needed.

[gs68]

Survival shmups tend to be made of boss milk. And I hate boss milking.

[Lance Boyle]

I can not think of a single instance where the phrase "survival shmup" is not redundant.

I live in a house home.

[TarkanX]

Provided a shooter's scoring competition isn't completely broken in some way (eg Gun.Smoke: no time limit on boss milking, or Vulgus: possible to suicide for points indefinitely), someone will always play it for score. The original R-Type is generally thought of as a "survival game," but it's got a high score in the Arcadia rankings just like DoDonPachi or Battle Garegga.

The aformentioned DDP and Garegga have involved scoring systems, and well-populated HS threads with some extremely good players, for starters. Neither is everyone's cup of tea (particularly if you dislike enemy chaining or tactical suiciding, respectively), but then no shooter is; make sure it's something you actually want to play first. Nothing wrong with setting a new top score for an underplayed game you've taken a liking to.

I understand what you're saying, but I think there is a great challenge when you can practice constantly/consistently on a competitive game, and break through to the top, rather than playing a game a few times and you claim the top spot, even if you like the game. It is around us, everywhere. The top athletes are considered that because they are the best in the most popular sports: Basketball, Baseball, Football, Soccer, etc. You won't see fishermen be considered as a top athlete, even though it is a tough sport, due to how unpopular it is. Even Golf, where there isn't a lot of constant sudden movement, the best golfers are considered as one of the best athletes in the world, mainly due to how popular it is. Popularity breeds competition, which brings noteriety (by the way, I'm not looking for noteriety, I just want to find games that are very competitive, and put time into the to get a high score).

Scoring shmup? Survival shmup? What the hell?

Aren't shmups ideally about BOTH of these concepts? You can't score if you don't survive, and in MANY games the reverse is also true.

I thought shmups have been about scoring since, uh, Space Invaders.

Shmups are about surviving, but there are 2 different takes on the genre in terms of the system. Survival shmups are based on trying beat the game without losing, scoring shmups offer the same, but scoring plays a huge part in how the game develops. While there is scoring in survival shmups, there isn't a great emphasis in them (other than gaining extra lives, etc.). By the way, I think the Golden Age of Arcades (from the late 70s to the early 80s), it was all about score, then after that (especially with the arrival of the NES), games started to switch from short burst adrenaline scoring to adventure like settings. Even though there are scores for Super Mario Bros., and Mega Man (the first one), you don't ever hear anyone talking about getting the high score for those games, and since then, score has been removed from the Mega Man games, and Mario games after I believe Super Mario World. People due keep track of things like time, but I consider that a different category.

[BIL]

I understand what you're saying, but I think there is a great challenge when you can practice constantly/consistently on a competitive game, and break through to the top, rather than playing a game a few times and you claim the top spot, even if you like the game.

I don't mean simply getting the first place on an empty HS thread (anyone can do that), but getting a genuinely impressive score. I've got the #1 spot on the modestly populated Metal Black thread, but I know it's far from Arcadia standard; if I was interested in competing with WIZ' 700k+ record, I wouldn't have stopped there.

I do get what you're saying, though. It is more interesting when you're being directly challenged by other competitors. In addition to DDP and Garegga, Homura's HS thread has also seen some pretty fierce competition approaching WR levels, and it's definitely a game designed around scoring.

[Phoenix]

Games like Galaga are the ultimate survival shooters, but you still can play for score.

[Despatche]

I consider that, in many cases, "survival shooters" don't actually end; thus, your score is an indication of your progress. I consider that, in truth, the only difference between obtaining score is the methods used.

So I can't help but think that this distinction is completely pointless.

[Aliquantic]

Where are you looking for competition, specifically? Suggestions will be fairly different depending on whether you want to go on the leaderboards here or on some other online leaderboard, notably the ones on modern consoles, but if you want to see the popular games for high-level scoring, you could have a look at the video superplay list... that should include most of the games that are or have been particularly popular (and there will be a lot of overlap with games that are popular, period)

I know the 360 has a fair amount of pretty good scores on its leaderboards, though usually not quite WR-level, and it should have enough variety with its relatively large STG catalogue. I could also suggest Touhou which includes some Arcadia record holders on its tables and is... quite challenging if you're going for excellent scores (UFO comes to mind in particular).