New Zenith 720p Plasma playing old school games

[brandonp514]

Hey guys,

I just bought a Zenith Z42pj240 plasma 720p TV. I want to use this TV to play NES/SNES/PS1, 2, and 3/Wii.

I guess my question here is what is the best quality picture I can get out of this TV using upscalers like the XRGB-3 and/or LKV360/361?

SNES - I've tried an SNES via COMPOSITE (I know...but there's no S-Video on this) and the quality is TERRIBLE allowing the TV to deinterlace/upscale. My questions for this system is can I purchase the LKV360 SCART to HDMI adapter and purchase an SNES SCART cable and hook it up to that adapter and expect happiness? Do I need to buy the S-Video version because I have an NTSC SNES or would SCART cables work just fine on it?

NES - I don't know how to get RGB on this and I only have Composite output for it. Lucky for me I don't use this much at all. Could I do the same as the SNES if I were to mod the NES?

PS1 - I'm running it via a PS3 1080p HDMI output and it seems to be pretty darn nice. I like how the PS3 handles PS1 games. Very little lag, but noticeable however.

PS2 - Can't play PS2 games on my PS3. I assume most PS2 games are 480i? or 240p? Few are 480p. Well, hooking up via component video seems to look pretty good on my TV natively. Could I expect much better performance with an upscaler? What would you suggest?

PS3 - HDMI and displays 1080p even though the set is 720p....I have no idea why? Picture is great on it.

Wii - Component cables and set to 480p. Like the PS2, would an upscaler be useful? Picture seems to be "ok" playing Super Mario Bros Wii.

Well, there's my questions. I've been scouring the forums and reading a BUNCH of Fudoh's website regarding the upscalers and such and have gained a wealth of information. I just want to make sure I'm making an informed decision before I spend lots of money. My wife has to approve my purchases, lol. Thanks to everyone ahead of time for your help!

[gray117]

Basically, you'll be wanting to determine which format/output is best/easiest to convert to.

Not knowing your tv I'd test it out to determine which progressive input [vga/dvi/hmdi/component] gives you the best picture quality and least lag from 240-480i-720 sources.

This will give you something to aim for... (not all tvs process all their inputs in the same manner - you want the one with the least lag/best quality - balance to what is most important to you...)

You then need to determine what it is that you need to fix about the picture - try hooking up a pc or console that runs a port/emulation at the tvs' native resolution to compare this 'perfect' image with an old console/pcb scaled one.

If you can do this with a lag free version even better - you can guess-timate if bypassing the tv's scaling will give you any benefit in terms of lag as well as picture quality.

You should be then able to work out what is most important to acheive the 'best look' - scaling/scanlines/lag reduction...


... In your case it sounds like it is all about scaling to the tv's native res - I do not think the xrgb or LKV360 [it lists audio delay as a 'feature' - meaning it actually delays the video by a significant amount? - not suitable for gaming imho if so....] are going to be your answer for scaling since I believe both add a degree of lag in scaling that will not be desirable - ideally you'll be searching out a scaler that introduces less lag - unless this isn't something that actually worries you (?).

[xrgb does a great job of adding scanlines, deinterlacing or line doubling to 480p, but not so hot when it comes to scaling above 480p]

However, if your tv copes great with 480p on vga - the xrgb could be your answer...

... you may be interested in waiting for - http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33450

[kamiboy]

The XRGB3 will likely give you the superior upscaled picture, and with line doubling it is the only one that gives you choice of scanline emulation. But it also costs about 5-6 times as much.

SNES - the NTSC/U version, which you have, does proper RGB via SCART, make sure to get yourself some good cables though. also you will want to get different type SCARTs depending on wither you go with the LKV360 or the XRGB. The LKV360's input is wired for Euro SCART whereas the XRGB's is wired for Japanese RGB21. You could also get a converter cable to turn Euro SCART cable into a Japanese one.

NES - This is a composite/RFU only console, so short of a mod that is all you will ever get out of it. If you do not play it much then I wouldn't bother, the mod is very expensive. Routing composite through an XRGB might, just might get you a better picture.

PS1 - routing the PS1 through a XRGB will get you scanlines on 240p content, and possibly less lag, but if you are happy with how the PS3 handles it I say keep things that way. But do a test at least.

PS2 - Pretty much all PS2 games are 480i, and component out is one of the best ways to connect it to your set. Some might suggest you route it through an XRGB3 to upscale it via B0 mode, but personally I would keep prefer to keep things as they are, if you get a XRGB3 you should at least do a test to see if you like the pixely look of the B0 scaler.

Wii - same rules as PS2 apply. Component is best, try XRGB3 with B0 mode to see if you like it better or not.

PS3 - Don't worry about the 1080p thing, you set accepts a 1080p signal but since its native resolution is lower it scales 1080p content down to its native res. The PS3 on the other hand, only ever puts out a true 1080p signal when you are in the XMB. Almost all games switch the PS3 to run in 720p upon startup.

[brandonp514]

Scanline emulation I don't think is really all that important to me. Actually though I'm wondering if the LKV360 SCART to HDMI will produce a noticeable input lag. Does anybody know if it does and if it does how bad it is? Fudoh recommended it on his webpage as a "quick n dirty" path to 240p glory. Hopefully this would be the way to go with a SNES scart cable. Imagine what I'm doing here:

Composite Video fed direct to TV making TV deinterlace and scale
SCART RGB Video to HDMI output at 720p done externally.

Big difference?

BTW, I'm mostly going to use the SNES for RPG games. Infact, ALL of my gaming is going to be mostly RPGs. IE: FF4 and 6. Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger, Breath of Fire 1 and 2, Super Mario RPG, etc. Not shoot em ups like everybody on here likes so much....lol. Am I in the minority here, haha?

[kamiboy]

What the deuce? If you are playing mostly RPG's which are just about the least timing sensitive genre on the planet, why then do you care about input lag at all one has to wonder?

Also, no one can answer your question regarding what the difference in lag will be between the LKV and your TV's internal scaler since that depends on, well, how much lag your TV's internal scaler produces.

For deuces sake, if you are going to play RPG's don't worry my good man, you will lose nothing by having that next line of dialog or next screen of menu options show up a few frames later.

[RGB32E]

Scanline emulation I don't think is really all that important to me. Actually though I'm wondering if the LKV360 SCART to HDMI will produce a noticeable input lag. Does anybody know if it does and if it does how bad it is? Fudoh recommended it on his webpage as a "quick n dirty" path to 240p glory. Hopefully this would be the way to go with a SNES scart cable. Imagine what I'm doing here:

Composite Video fed direct to TV making TV deinterlace and scale
SCART RGB Video to HDMI output at 720p done externally.

Big difference?

BTW, I'm mostly going to use the SNES for RPG games. Infact, ALL of my gaming is going to be mostly RPGs. IE: FF4 and 6. Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger, Breath of Fire 1 and 2, Super Mario RPG, etc. Not shoot em ups like everybody on here likes so much....lol. Am I in the minority here, haha?

The easiest way to get an idea of what a 240p RGB scaler could do is to play a 240p PS1 game via a PS3. IIRC most all Squaresoft RPGs output at 240p. You might need to play with the upscaler settings on the PS3 to get it right. Hence, PS3 via HDMI @ 720p with a 240p PS1 game (disc or PSN download).

[brandonp514]

What the deuce? If you are playing mostly RPG's which are just about the least timing sensitive genre on the planet, why then do you care about input lag at all one has to wonder?

Also, no one can answer your question regarding what the difference in lag will be between the LKV and your TV's internal scaler since that depends on, well, how much lag your TV's internal scaler produces.

For deuces sake, if you are going to play RPG's don't worry my good man, you will lose nothing by having that next line of dialog or next screen of menu options show up a few frames later.

LOL, I guess you're right about that. Playing RPGs isn't exactly time sensitive. I do notice a little lag playing PS1 games on my PS3. In Suikoden (240p PS1 RPG) The lag is noticeable when opening menus and walking around but who cares right? It's like milisecond lag, very little at all. First I thought it was because I was using a wireless PS3 controller...but alas hooked up USB it still has the lag. So I can probably assume the LKV360 will produce similar lag? Doesn't it do all the work and the TV just outputs 720p HDMI?

[brandonp514]

Also guys, any suggestions on good SNES RGB SCART cables? Will I notice a big difference in picture quality moving from Composite hooked directly to the TV vs SCART to HDMI converter? I always have been told how much better SCART RGB is than S-Video and since my TV has no Svideo inputs I have no choice but to go this route on the cheap or be stuck with horrendous composite video. *shudders*

[kamiboy]

Lords yes, you will notice a very large difference going from composite to RGB on a Plasma TV. The SNES has an amazing library of quality titles, I'd say if your TV does not support S-video input then there really is nothing to think about, buy the LKV.

[brandonp514]

Lords yes, you will notice a very large difference going from composite to RGB on a Plasma TV. The SNES has an amazing library of quality titles, I'd say if your TV does not support S-video input then there really is nothing to think about, buy the LKV.

So what are the advantages of buying an XRGB2+ and XRGB3 and DVDO Edge instead of this adapter?

[kamiboy]

Well, the scanline emulation is the most obvious advantage of the XRGB series. Some here swear by the clean pixelated look of XRGB3's upscaling, and the DVDO edge's advantage is that it has high end scaler built into it which the LKV cannot compete with. Of course the main advantage of the LVK is that it does adequate scaling for a fraction of the price of all those other devices.

Think of it in terms of audio equipment. Some people are fine with 128k mp3 they got via torrents, lets liken them to the folks who suffice with composite, and then there are guys who spend 100k on the speakers alone. There is a scale and there is a point of diminishing returns depending on how obsessive you are.

For you I'd say just do a search on ebay for good RGB wired SNES SCART cables, get the LKV and sit down to enjoy some games. If you start constantly eying solutions that might technically be better then you might find yourself tumbling down a steep hill and find that you spend more time trying to get games to look just right rather than playing them.

Anywaste, the choice is yours.

[brandonp514]

Well, the scanline emulation is the most obvious advantage of the XRGB series. Some here swear by the clean pixelated look of XRGB3's upscaling, and the DVDO edge's advantage is that it has high end scaler built into it which the LKV cannot compete with. Of course the main advantage of the LVK is that it does adequate scaling for a fraction of the price of all those other devices.

Think of it in terms of audio equipment. Some people are fine with 128k mp3 they got via torrents, lets liken them to the folks who suffice with composite, and then there are guys who spend 100k on the speakers alone. There is a scale and there is a point of diminishing returns depending on how obsessive you are.

For you I'd say just do a search on ebay for good RGB wired SNES SCART cables, get the LKV and sit down to enjoy some games. If you start constantly eying solutions that might technically be better then you might find yourself tumbling down a steep hill and find that you spend more time trying to get games to look just right rather than playing them.

Anywaste, the choice is yours.

Very good information, thank you kamiboy. I totally understand what you mean spending more time getting the picture just right vs playing the game becomes a game all in itself, lol.

BTW, on my US N64 what is the best picture quality available? SVideo? I don't think you can get a SCART N64 game AFAIK.

[kamiboy]

Outside of doing a mod the best video you can pull out of a N64 is S-video. If you feel brave and have the proper tools you can find plenty of resources to show you how to do a RGB mod, but RGB is a capricious enough of a harlot when it is supported out of the box, so you can imagine what sort of trouble the temptress might have in store for you should you allow her to lure you into her colourful lair by way of the promises of a mod.

Now that I think of it, one plus, in your case, to be thrown into the XRGB lot is that they come equipped with S-Video inputs, which the LKV does not offer. I am not sure if within those thousand gnarly metallic teeth in the Péritel maw there is one or two dedicated to transferring an S-video signal. If there is, then you can no doubt find a s-video to SCART adapter, and if the LKV supports that configuration then I suppose you need not worry about mods at all with an LKV.

I am not sure though, so you will have to do the homework yourself.

[brandonp514]

Outside of doing a mod the best video you can pull out of a N64 is S-video. If you feel brave and have the proper tools you can find plenty of resources to show you how to do a RGB mod, but RGB is a capricious enough of a harlot when it is supported out of the box, so you can imagine what sort of trouble the temptress might have in store for you should you allow her to lure you into her colourful lair by way of the promises of a mod.

Now that I think of it, one plus, in your case, to be thrown into the XRGB lot is that they come equipped with S-Video inputs, which the LKV does not offer. I am not sure if within those thousand gnarly metallic teeth in the Péritel maw there is one or two dedicated to transferring an S-video signal. If there is, then you can no doubt find a s-video to SCART adapter, and if the LKV supports that configuration then I suppose you need not worry about mods at all with an LKV.

I am not sure though, so you will have to do the homework yourself.

They have an LKV361 that adds svideo and removes scart. Maybe I need one of those for N64 and the other for SNES.

Quick question regarding PS2 and Wii. What does the TV do to 480i PS2 and 480p Wii signals and would the HDBox Pro be better to handle that instead of the TV? Would there be any difference in picture quality?

[kamiboy]

For 480i/480p consoles just let your TV handle them unfiltered, chances are it will do a much better job than anything you can get for under 100.

What it does is, for 480i, it, hopefully, deinterlaces each field into a full frame and then scales it to your TV's native resolution and then does some image enhancing magic before displaying it. For 480p it just scales the full frame. Really there is not much difference between what the LKV or any other scaler does and what your TV's internal processing does. Save your money and let your TV have its way.

If you had asked around here before getting the TV I would have recommended you buy a Panasonic, because they traditionally have the best processing and Plasma Panels since Pioneer pulled out of the race. But I doubt you would be able to see much of any difference between you TV's performance and that of a cheap scaler.

[brandonp514]

For 480i/480p consoles just let your TV handle them unfiltered, chances are it will do a much better job than anything you can get for under 100.

What it does is, for 480i, it, hopefully, deinterlaces each field into a full frame and then scales it to your TV's native resolution and then does some image enhancing magic before displaying it. For 480p it just scales the full frame. Really there is not much difference between what the LKV or any other scaler does and what your TV's internal processing does. Save your money and let your TV have its way.

If you had asked around here before getting the TV I would have recommended you buy a Panasonic, because they traditionally have the best processing and Plasma Panels since Pioneer pulled out of the race. But I doubt you would be able to see much of any difference between you TV's performance and that of a cheap scaler.

Zenith Plasma is actually an LG Plasma (LG bought Zenith name) without the USB Port used for showing media from a flash drive. It's the same exact TV as the LG42PJ350. I got this 42inch for 399 from Sears on Black Friday. The closest Panasonic was like 100 bucks more atleast (trust me I wanted a Panasonic). I "thought" that it having a VGA input would be nice for using any of these scalers but I guess I'm not even going to use that VGA input after all.

SO I guess reading about all these video processors has made me think that my TV's processor is total crap when in fact it really isn't all that bad? I guess the only advantage I'm getting in the LKV is that I'm getting RGB vs composite. I think in of itself that's a pretty big advantage off the bat huh?

[kamiboy]

Instead of thinking in terms of, "there is something better than what I have", I find it is more beneficial for one's mental health to think in terms of "How pleased am I truly with what I already have".

If you hook up your Wii, or PS2 to it and think that things looks great then its time to stop worrying and love your display.

[brandonp514]

Instead of thinking in terms of, "there is something better than what I have", I find it is more beneficial for one's mental health to think in terms of "How pleased am I truly with what I already have".

If you hook up your Wii, or PS2 to it and think that things looks great then its time to stop worrying and love your display.

LOL, You have a great outlook on all this. I actually have a Sony Trinitron PVM-2950q CRT TV/Monitor that as Component input. Problem is it has MAJOR burn in because it was used at an Airport where it didn't change the flight information for years. It's not so noticeable if you turn down the contrast and brightness but still obviously there and since I'm very picky about that kinda stuff I stopped using it and bought the Plasma.

The main reason I have a plasma is because I don't like CRT geometric distortion (DRIVES ME INSANE!) and LCD motion blur on 2d games where there's a lot of movement. Plasma has phosphor lag and a bit of motion blur but I can handle that in comparison to an LCD. Have you ever played some 2d games on LCDs with lots of motion? You can't even see the background clearly as you move your character! It's terrible. Plasma is tolerable for me, the others are not at all IMO.

The PVM Sony Trinitron is the best with geometry that I've seen but still isn't good enough for me. I love the perfect geometry of flat panels. And why are people so big on scanlines? To me it makes the picture look not nearly as good. I don't know, just my opinion on things. Anyways.....can't wait to get this adapter and play me some SNES games!

[kamiboy]

I've had a Panasonic Plasma in the past, and have a LCD TV now, but I've never had any problems with blurring with either, rather I think my eyes focus on the character that I am moving in the centre of the screen instead of the world being moved around it, so I don't notice the blurring. Also having a good modern LCD with some tricks up its sleeve will help reduce the problem.

People are big on scanlines because they are one way to emulate that CRT look on newer technology screens that render old games in a cold and sterile manner. At least I thought the XRGB scanlines made games from most systems look a lot better on my LCD TV, but I still missed that CRT look that I used to have back in the day, so I've gone back to playing games on a CRT again, a NEC XM29. But the thing is the thick black spaces between each scanline on the XM29 makes every system's game look excellent except for the SNES for some reason. So am I looking to get the little brother to your 2950, the PVM 2530 to see if it will render SNES games more to my liking.

Too bad your 2950 has burn in, or that would have been one fine display you had there for older games. So fine in fact that if your display and mine were ever to have a quarrel they'd not doubt be as equally matched as when Enkidu and Gilgamesh wrestled.

[brandonp514]

Hah, oh well. I happen to really like the way my plasma plays PS1, 2, and 3 so not really missing that CRT. If the Scart to HDMI converter works well I may just sell that PVM on craigslist.

Cold and sterile? I don't think so. I think it makes them look like the creators actually wanted them to look like but didn't have the tech to accomodate. I mean, if I was creating a game I wouldn't be like hmmmmm let's see I can have a clean looking sprite or a sprite with black lines through 'em? Which to pick? Again, just my opinion. Maybe I'm just jealous that I can't afford an XRGB3

[kamiboy]

The artists of any game, old or new draws the game assets to work best with the display it is likely to be played on. So the best thing, technically sppeaking, is to play them on what they were designed to be displayed on. 240p sprite based games look unpleasant to me scaled to multiple of their native resolution but look fine in small stamp sized windows without any scaling.

3D games are less affected by this, i can play any 3D PSX and PS2 game on an LCD fine but for beautiful sprite graphics like, say, Symphony of the Night, I much prefer a CRT. Or a screen no bigger than the one on the PSP.

Pixel graphics in general I think is best displayed on a display that has the same native resolution as the assets being rendered and CRT happens to not have any native res by nature. But then, as you said, CRT has problems with geometry, which can be annoying.

But I'll take the flaws of CRT over the conveniences of LCD for older games. Doing side by sides I clearly think CRT to be best looking. To each their own, enjoy your games on your display, I hope to put an end to my silly quest for acceptable quality and instead put all that time and resource into games instead.

[brandonp514]

The artists of any game, old or new draws the game assets to work best with the display it is likely to be played on. So the best thing, technically sppeaking, is to play them on what they were designed to be displayed on. 240p sprite based games look unpleasant to me scaled to multiple of their native resolution but look fine in small stamp sized windows without any scaling.

3D games are less affected by this, i can play any 3D PSX and PS2 game on an LCD fine but for beautiful sprite graphics like, say, Symphony of the Night, I much prefer a CRT. Or a screen no bigger than the one on the PSP.

Pixel graphics in general I think is best displayed on a display that has the same native resolution as the assets being rendered and CRT happens to not have any native res by nature. But then, as you said, CRT has problems with geometry, which can be annoying.

But I'll take the flaws of CRT over the conveniences of LCD for older games. Doing side by sides I clearly think CRT to be best looking. To each their own, enjoy your games on your display, I hope to put an end to my silly quest for acceptable quality and instead put all that time and resource into games instead.

I agree with you but (for me) the CRT has too many flaws that I can't look past: Geometry, Convergence, Weight, Size, picture bloom and annoying noise. Trust me, I've been Pro CRT for a long time but I've realized that I'm never going to find the perfect CRT Geometry on any set plus I want to watch HDTV as well as game on the set. Hopefully one of these days there will be a display technology with all the positives and none of the negatives that can play any resolution fine with no motion blur. I can't wait for that to appear and I dont think that OLED will be the answer.

[kamiboy]

SED and FED might have been the anwser, especially if versions could have been made with Native SD resolutions. But the overwhelming success of LCD's killed development of both technologies off for good. Oled was also killed in a similar manner as well as was Plasma. The only choices going fotward is LCD.

I would never have thought of going back to CRT just a few years ago, but then I got into classic gaming and I think CRT just works out so much better in that regard. Of course I also happen to have the spare room for it.

[brandonp514]

I really hate LCD....just thought I'd make that clear, lol. I especially hate the "Real Motion" crap that makes video look "realistic" and in reality makes it look cheap. I really REALLY hate LCD. I better stop before I go on an Anti LCD Rant. I can rant on LCD because I own an LCD TV, lol.

[RGB32E]

...I can't wait for that to appear and I dont think that OLED will be the answer.

Well... LG's 31" 1080p OLED HDTV will be shipping in the UK starting March 2011!!! The reported MSRP will be £6,000 (just under $10,000 USD). So, I'm sure OLED will be the answer for some well-heeled individuals!

There's also the LG 15EL9500 OLED HDTV for about $3,100 (15" 720p):
http://shop.ebay.com/?_nkw=15EL9500&_sa ... Categories

[kamiboy]

OLED gives you much darker blacks, more natural looking colours and a very good motion resolution. It will trump LCD for just about anything, but I don't see how it is that much more suited for older video games.

Maybe a 20" OLED with a 4:3 aspect ratio and SD resolution could perhaps trump even a PVM SONY monitor of the same size. But thing is these will no doubt be made in 16:9 and with at least 720 resolutions. Given that I think in the sub 30" sizes they won't do much to stomp an LCD.

In smaller sizes everything looks great, almost independent of resolution as long as it is a good quality panel. In HD and 16:9 I think you would need to go at least 42" and above to get any real apparent benefit.

[Strider77]

In smaller sizes everything looks great, almost independent of resolution as long as it is a good quality panel. In HD and 16:9 I think you would need to go at least 42" and above to get any real apparent benefit.

This is true... if you only regard resolution in quality and totally disregard color/brightness performance, and that is half the picture quality if not more. But HD still looks worlds better even at 20 inches. As long as the source material is HD anyways.

OLED uses organic phosphorus like a CRT... so you get the set pixel and size advantages of a flat panel and the color and brightness advantages of a CRT. In theory anyway to my understanding. I am quite excited to see how this tech pans out.

I agree with you but (for me) the CRT has too many flaws that I can't look past: Geometry, Convergence, Weight, Size, picture bloom and annoying noise

Ever met a Sony XS955 in person after tweaking it via a service menu... it provides a pretty amazing picture not to mention 2 native resolutions. Combined with an XRGB... it is quite awesome for all my gaming needs along with providing stunning color for blu ray and HD material (and SD material via the XRGB).

I would love to replace it with a flat panel of some kind.... but it would look worse as a whole for all my needs. Well.... I know a flat panel must exist that could do so but the cost..... it ain't gonna happen for me right now. Plus the performance keeps upping and the prices dropping for flat panels, then add 3D into the mix. I'm am so happy with my TV I am waiting for the tech to mature. I am keeping my eye on the newer panasonic plasmas and OLED. I don't know much about LED's performance though.

[brandonp514]

Ever met a Sony XS955 in person after tweaking it via a service menu... it provides a pretty amazing picture not to mention 2 native resolutions. Combined with an XRGB... it is quite awesome for all my gaming needs along with providing stunning color for blu ray and HD material (and SD material via the XRGB).

I would love to replace it with a flat panel of some kind.... but it would look worse as a whole for all my needs. Well.... I know a flat panel must exist that could do so but the cost..... it ain't gonna happen for me right now. Plus the performance keeps upping and the prices dropping for flat panels, then add 3D into the mix. I'm am so happy with my TV I am waiting for the tech to mature. I am keeping my eye on the newer panasonic plasmas and OLED. I don't know much about LED's performance though.

Funny that you mention that. I actually own a KD-34XS955 Widescreen 16:9 in my bedroom (ten feet away from me as I type, lol). The XBR960 is the "best" but still has the Super Fine Pitch tube on both TVs. I kind of wanted a KD-36XS955 because it would be 4:3 and I wouldn't have to deal with the black bars on the right and left for SD content. And yes, I know how to get in to the service menu, I've tweaked settings around but find that you can't perfect geometry because the service menu is just software tweaks and if the CRT isn't calibrated just perfectly out of the factory then you can pretty much forget it. I also don't feel like paying somebody 500 bucks to calibrate the set. I will admit though that the picture is stunning and even better than my LCD or Plasma (not by much) I got it from a guy on craigslist for $100 bucks, was quite a steal.

Still find the geometry of it annoying and I can't fix it properly. I will admit though that the HD Sony CRTs don't emit an annoying ring that the older sets did. Another thing I hate about the CRTs is the WEIGHT! I had to carry that monstrosity from a 2nd floor apartment. Weighing in at 220+ lbs it was not fun to move to say the least. I promise I wanted to love CRTs and I gave many a shot through craigslist on geometry. EVERY set I tried to play my fav game Suikoden on would display poor geometry where if you kept your eye on one thing (say a tree) and walked up and down the screen, the tree would wave like a ripple effect. VERY annoying and I honestly don't remember those issues growing up using CRTs, I only noticed it in the last couple of years. Go figure. The PVM-2950q has so far been the best geometry set I've come across. MAN if I could find one brand new (I know they were made in last 90s....) then I would be in SD heaven!

[Strider77]

I got a PVM 20L5 recently and my jaw dropped at the geometry and convergence... it was incredibly accurate. Not PERFECT but damn close, so very close.... Got it for 150.00 new in the box, he even brought it to my house. Excepts 240p on up to 1080i natively.. even pal standards. Did I all ready mention how amazed I was at the virtual lack of ALL convergence issues and and almost no geometry flaws. That fucker is the best picture I have EVER seen with my own eyes, granted it only 20 inches mind you but it's total overkill for all my tate needs..... so much so i have been tempted to get a plastic Jesus figure to put on top of it with a sign stating "God's tate monitor" as a joke.

You can tweak a XS955 for very good geometry. I know exactly what you are talking about with your "tree" description. I bought my 32 in XS955 new in the box about... dunno the exact date but it was shortly after the 360 launched. I've tweaked it over the years and the geometry is pretty dead on for the most part. You can see a SLIGHT ark on stright edges near the corners but it really would have to be pointed out unless you are OCD like me.

I have got the geometry to a very good point.... but it did take alot of time and learning the service menu. Grated that is a chore. I just bought a 34 inch XS955 to replace the 32 inch HS420 down stairs. I was watching the avatar blu ray after I was done calibrating it and was stunned by the color and image. I would easily challenge my buddies Plasma in a side by side comparison. Although his set is HUGE and looks fantastic also. I was gonna use it to replace my 32 inch upstairs but I sit so close to that set and have spent so much time tweaking it, it just seemed to make more sense to use it downstairs in the movie room. The good sound system is down their and the sitting distance is much further. It's size would benefit better there. Not to mention my gaming set up is upstairs and lugging that beast up the steps... ugh.

It's really a shame that manufacturers didn't tweak the geometry more out of box.... but that would have been way more hours to have have to pay more employees to do ect....

I feel you though on the geometry and convergence, it drove me up the walls even when it was minor. I'm just saying that after tweaking the set over the years I've got it pretty damn good, not PERFECT but about 90 percent or more (depending on how OCD you are) there.

[brandonp514]

I got a PVM 20L5 recently and my jaw dropped at the geometry and convergence... it was incredibly accurate. Not PERFECT but damn close....

You can tweak a XS955 for very good geometry. I know exactly what you are talking about with your "tree" description. I bought my 32 in XS955 new in the box about... dunno the exact date but it was shortly after the 360 launched. I've tweaked it over the years and the geometry is pretty dead on for the most part. You can see a SLIGHT ark on stright edges near the corners but it really would have to be pointed out unless you are OCD like me.

I have got the geometry to a very good point.... but it did take alot of time and learning the service menu. Grated that is a chore. I just bought a 34 inch XS955 to replace the 32 inch HS420 down stairs. I was watching the avatar blu ray after I was done calibrating it and was stunned by the color and image. I would easily challenge my buddies Plasma in a side by side comparison. Although his set is HUGE and looks fantastic also. I was gonna use it to replace my 32 inch upstairs but I sit so close to that set and have spent so much time tweaking it, it just seemed to make more sense to use it downstairs in the movie room. The good sound system is down their and the sitting distance is much further. It's size would benefit better there. Not to mention my gaming set up is upstairs and lugging that beast up the steps... ugh.

It's really a shame that manufacturers didn't tweak the geometry more out of box.... but that would have been way more hours to have have to pay more employees to do ect....

I feel you though on the geometry and convergence, it drove me up the walls even when it was minor. I'm just saying that after tweaking the set over the years I've got it pretty damn good, not PERFECT but about 90 percent or more (depending on how OCD you are) there.

We are both OCD about that crap. It's really not that noticeable in 3d games but if you play 2d games (what I mostly play) then you are going to very easily notice geometry imperfection. It may sound like we're whining but it's really warranted.

I find that the plasma is the balance between CRT and LCD. There are things I like about CRT that I don't like about plasma (phosphor lag, slight motion blur) and Plasma that I don't like about CRT (PERFECT geometry, no convergence issue, LIGHT, bigger screen size, and cheap. Mine was 399 for 42 inch) All in all, the plasma is the winner to me. Bear in mind though that I have the cheapest plasma I Could possibly find for black friday and it's still awesome. I can only imagine what an expensive Pioneer kuro would look like *drools*