Noob looking for advice on CRT/VGA

[Paradigm]

So basically I play my console shmups on a tated CRT TV through RGB scart. It looks nice enough but I see that a lot of people here use old PC monitors such as the NEC-XM29 through VGA to get a proper low-res picture quality. I'm looking for something as close to the actual PCB on a candy cab as I can get it.

So I'm interested in going this route, but I'm pretty clueless and I'm hoping you guys can offer some help with the basics. I'd like to hook up my 360, PS1/2, Saturn and Dreamcast since those are the consoles I use for shmups. I have RGB scart cables for all of these so compatibility with that would help (rather than having to hunt down S-Video cables for everything).

Where should I start?

[kamiboy]

If you have a CRT TV with RGB SCART input then you are already set in terms of display technology. I have a XM29, and I wish I could exchange it for a TV like yours. All you need then is finding the proper SCART cables for all your systems.

Saturn and PS1/2 certainly have RGB SCART cables available for them. I believe you can get SCART RGB cables for the 360, I suggest doing a google search, or perhaps a search on eBay. As for Dreamcast, the preferred output from that console, I hear, is via its VGA adapter, but that is a moot point for your TV, so in that case your best bet is RGB SCART once again, I have heard people owning them, so they exist for the Dreamcast.

All of these you can hunt down on eBay, but a word of warning first. When doing a search with the keywords SCART or RGB and the name of any console you will get a lot of results of really cheap generic looking cables. Usually based out of China or Hong Kong. Some of these cables might work well, but then some are of dubious quality and arent even wired for RGB, so you'd get a pretty poor composite picture.

As a rule of thumb you will want to go with official cables made by the manufacturer of the console themselves. But those kinds are usually very expensive. Do a google search and research RGB SCART cables to find which ones, if any, are the reputable ones. Usually if you go with one made by a third party peripheral maker, such as mad catz, Monster cables, etc. then those cables will be of a good build and will work well.

A last word, if your TV, per chance, happens to have component inputs, then those will work just as well for the Playstation consoles.

[Fudoh]

...happens to have component inputs, then those will work just as well for the Playstation consoles.

just PS2 and PS3, not on the PS1/One.

I have a XM29, and I wish I could exchange it for a TV like yours.

You should exchange your XM29 for a Sony PVM. You dislike the picture because the XM29 is a multi-sync display. The discussion about scanline strength (etc) on 15khz vs. 31khz tubes is common when you look at cab owners. The older 15/24khz only CRTs have much lighter and thinner scanlines. On the other hand, when going with a 15khz only display, you cannot use 480p progressive scan outputs from a DC, PS2 or 360 anymore. It's a tradeoff.

@Paradigm: as kamiboy stated, if you got a nice 15khz RGB tube, you're set and good. The only reason to go with a XM29 (or similar display) is that you can natively feed 15khz RGBs and 31khz VGA without any need for a converter. The downside is - again as kamiboy stated - the more defined scanlines on 15kz signals. Another reason why you read much about displays like the XM29 is that Americans didn't have Scart RGB on their TVs, so these professional displays were the only alternative.

Anyway, if you've good a CRT, you're already as close to an actual candy cab as you'll ever get.

If you've got the space, I'd recommend keeping your current CRT for vintage systems and using a Plasma (or low-lag LCD) for 360. The DC can be used via RGB on the CRT or via VGA on the flatcreen.

[kamiboy]

You dislike the picture because the XM29 is a multi-sync display. The discussion about scanline strength (etc) on 15khz vs. 31khz tubes is common when you look at cab owners. The older 15/24khz only CRTs have much lighter and thinner scanlines. On the other hand, when going with a 15khz only display, you cannot use 480p progressive scan outputs from a DC, PS2 or 360 anymore. It's a tradeoff.

Yes, that is it exactly, the scanlines being so thick, and clearly defined, prevents each horizontal line of resolution to blend in together naturally. I will possibly keep the XM29 for 480i/480p games and perhaps get me something else for 240p material. Would you say that the SONY PVM's more like the XM29, or more like older 15/24hz only displays?

[kamiboy]

...happens to have component inputs, then those will work just as well for the Playstation consoles.

just PS2 and PS3, not on the PS1/One.

Just to clarify, component will not work if you try to put the cable into an actual original PlayStation/PS1/PSOne. If you put the cable into a PS2, or 3, then you can use it even if you play PS1 games on the system via backwards compatibility.

Also, for PS1 material, the PS3 will not work very well, because it does not put out 240p, the lowest the PS3 can go is 480i. So you wouldn't get those wonderful lowfi scanlines if you play a PS1 game on the PS3. For older Playstation games a PS2 is your best best.

[Fudoh]

Would you say that the SONY PVM's more like the XM29, or more like older 15/24hz only displays?

the Sony PVM definitely look like classic RGB TVs, while the Sony PGM look like a XM29 (with 31khz, since the PGM is 31khz only).

[gray117]

Only further considerations will be finding out how to access the service menus on a crt - you'll probably find a lot of geometry and color tweaks in particular will help you get the most out of a tv that otherwise you might assume had a bad picture... or simply just allow you to setup a screen how you want it.

... makes you wonder how many tv repair shops used to just fiddle with these hidden menus rather than replacing parts ...

Sony's are usually a safe bet on this front; but, as ever, google may reveal answers - depends where you are, what's easily available, and how lucky/unlucky you are

soft15 video driver hack / arcadevga video cards / emotias ... are further tools to consider in your pursuit of arcade 240p with a 15khz crt... depending on your setup ...

Enjoy the reading

[spadgy]

So the PVM is 15/24khz only, meaning it has thinner scanlines?

[kamiboy]

Be careful about service menus though, very very careful. My XM29 has some bad geometry issues, and rather than hidden in some service menu the geometry options are all there in the main menu. But I find whenever I fiddle with them I end up ruining things even more, thank god for the reset to defaults feature then.

Some TV's don't have this luxury for service menu items, if you fiddle with something you shouldn't have and forget which option it was and what it was set to you might be in trouble. I did this on CRT TV I owned back in the day, I regretted my tampering and had no way to restore it to its factory defaults. I would say unless something is horribly awry stay away from the advanced options.

[Endymion]

All PVMs are 15KHz only. They might be able to do some other lower cycle broadcasts close to that range but they will not do a 31KHz+ for VGA. It's the other models that do VGA, PGM, GDM, etc.

They also use an aperture grille instead of the shadow mask that is more common with higher resolution screens.

[Paradigm]

I was doing a bit of reading up (like I said I'm a total noob when it comes to this stuff) on this page http://postback.geedorah.com/extra/a_ma ... cision.htm and it says "Your standard CRT TV works at 15 kHz but it doesn't at 31 kHz, while your standard CRT VGA monitor for your PC, just the contrary" which is something I didn't even know, I thought only PC monitors did 15 kHz.

Anyway, if you've good a CRT, you're already as close to an actual candy cab as you'll ever get.

Surely though isn't VGA a better option than RGB scart through a TV? It's the only way I can get a proper 240p low-res image isn't it?

I know there's a Dreamcast VGA box and it's possible to run the 360 through VGA using something (XRGB 2???), but are PS1/2 and Saturn capable of VGA?

What would be the cheapest method for me to get as many of these consoles as possible running in VGA?

And is this kind of stuff complicated to set up? Like I've said, I'm not at all knowledgable on the subject so some of the things that you guys discuss regarding this type of thing tend to go over my head

Anyway, thanks for the help so far.

[kamiboy]

Hold on a tick, you got this whole thing backwards. VGA is 31 khz, sure, that gets you your basic 640x480 desktop resolution if you will. But 240p is 15khz.

In short when you plug your NES, SNES, SMS, Genesis, PS1 consoles into your current TV via SCART, there is your 15khz 240p right there. The best way to connect a 240p console to a display is via SCART RGB, and you already have that, as well as display that supports it.

I am not sure where you got this whole VGA business from, but VGA is for computer resolutions, e.g. anything 640x480 and above. The only console that can put out such a signal is the Dreamcast via its VGA adapter.

You do best to forget about this whole VGA thing, it does not even make sense for 240p consoles to have VGA cables, and for the dreamcast you do best to forget there as well and just get yourself a SCART cable.

If all of that went above your head, here is the bottom line. With you current TV and SCART connectors you already have the best possible picture, enjoy it.

[antron]

Surely though isn't VGA a better option than RGB scart through a TV? It's the only way I can get a proper 240p low-res image isn't it?

VGA is hi-res.

I know there's a Dreamcast VGA box and it's possible to run the 360 through VGA using something (XRGB 2???), but are PS1/2 and Saturn capable of VGA?

DC and 360 Yes, with the right cable.
Saturn No
PS1 no
PS2 yes but only for monitors that can do Sync on Green (not many)

[Paradigm]

Ah OK, so the only people worried about getting a 240p image from their 360 should be people who want to play it in their cabs on their arcade monitors right?

So say I bought a supergun, I'd be better off connecting that to my CRT TV via RGB scart than I would connecting it to a monitor via VGA? That seems odd to me, I would have thought that a monitor would have a crisper picture with improved clarity despite the image being upscaled from 15kHz to 31kHz.

But if I actually am better off with my current CRT TV RGB scart set up, I'm not complaining.

[kamiboy]

You never get better clarity from an upscaled picture as opposed to a picture shown at native resolution on a CRT. Only reason anyone would upscale 15khz to 31khz is if one does not have a display that can accept 15khz, which counts almost all CRT monitors.

You have a TV with native 15khz support and a RGB input, such a setup is the envy of anyone who has to put up with upscaling and all the troubles that come with it.

I am sure other's can fill you in with the technical reasons why a analog CRT display, which by nature has no fixed resolution, performs best if a signal is fed to it untouched. In short look at that lovely lowfi image on your TV right now, that is about as good as it gets, at least it is for some.

[Thjodbjorn]

Ah OK, so the only people worried about getting a 240p image from their 360 should be people who want to play it in their cabs on their arcade monitors right?

I can't afford or find a cab here in MN, but I'm trying to make a stopgap setup at home with my CRT TV, 360 and Super Emotia.