Time Attack as a rebirth in a new era of shmups

[szycag]

I've been thinking about how much I love time attack modes, as well as games that are all about time rush like Pac-Man CE. In the main game of Dangun Feveron the discoman scoring is borderline sadistic, but in the time attack it's a blast. Certainly the whole game is Cave at their best, but the time attack mode is more inviting to more types of players, while having the same risk/reward gameplay. Pac-Man CE is obviously a very deep scoring game but not in a way that would turn away casual players. Get what I'm saying?

Anyways, if Cave is trying to make it into the western market through platforms like the iPhone, I think time attack style gameplay isn't just the best way to invite new players, but a whole new way to look at their games. Most casual players still refuse to come to terms with creditfeeding as it stands, while diehard fans get cases of restartitis trying to play well at home with their ports or PCBs. This is certainly a better approach on portable devices where it's most convenient to get in a quick game or two when you take a break, but it's just as viable for full-featured console games as well. If you've got your average half-hour long arcade shmup, cut it up into say, five 5-minute levels with a final TLB style level to unlock. This streamlines watching and sharing your replays a lot more as well. One of the best things about the Star Soldier-style caravan games is that they manage to cast a better balance between actually shooting enemies and dodging bullets, but no reason you couldn't throw chaining or proximity bonuses on top of that.

A point I'm trying to make is that not just Cave, but any developer who releases outside of japan, are entering a market where "please continue" isn't even really a part of the lexicon anymore. Your quarters aren't on the line if you've already bought the game, which is why I like the idea of time attack as a way to have players feel like they need to make it count where you're not fixated in a world of your change versus the evil arcade vendor's earnings. It's also a way to make crappier games fun. Bejeweled 2 is painfully boring while Bejeweled Blitz is embarrasingly addictive (if you're scoffing you obviously haven't given it a college try, snob )

Anyone else see time attack as a way to get more gamers interested in shmups and transistion to a new arena of smartphones and XBLA/PSN as real arcades everywhere continue to close?

[Obiwanshinobi]

Starfighter Sanvein could use a PSN reissue. As intense as 2D shooter should be, but completely devoid of the dreaded one-hit-one-life mechanics. You just earn and lose time, that's it.

[Elixir]

Time trials, if anything, should be additional. They should not become the centre of attention, nor strip the game away from the original, nor downgrade the game to a portable.

[Kollision]

^ this

[szycag]

For the record I'm talking about scoring in a limited amount of time, not trying to get the best time, which is what you made me think of when you said time trials, not assuming that's what you meant though. Fair enough if you don't like time attack as the center of attention, but any one stage in a shooting game is only going to last so long anyways, which makes me think "why not?" I guess you really prefer trogging through the easy stages on every credit and relying on practice modes to get good at the hard ones. I really don't see how basing the scoring system around a limited amount of time downgrades the game to a portable, whatever that means. It only means the focus is on taking out enemies quickly and taking out as many stationary targets as possible. As for stripping the game away from the original, I was thinking more about games designed specifically for the home and portable market. Cave has said they'll be making a game originating on consoles that will be for the international market, and I thought this sort of idea would be really good for that. I wasn't suggesting just slapping a time limit on stages.

Curious how many more people agree with Elixir.

[mjclark]

CAVE CARAVAN!!!!!!!

[t0yrobo]

CAVE CARAVAN!!!!!!!

Exactly, I don't see anyone devaluing caravan games for being time attack. I think it'd be great to see more time attack games, though I'm not sure if it'd do anything to convince people that they're worth the cost still.

On a side note, anyone else here get Pac-Man CE DX? It has a way stronger scoring focus, and survival is easier as well. It shouldn't be difficult for most people to finish the 5 minute mode, but scoring decently takes some skill. And it's seriously fun

[szycag]

CAVE CARAVAN!!!!!!!

HELL YES

I'm not sure if it'd do anything to convince people that they're worth the cost still.

Right, although you wouldn't see a lot of people saying this about Pac-Man CE... I guess the trick would be packing in as many diverse stages with interesting scenarios as possible, and having variations on the goals as different modes. People might still say "you're paying for only 30 minutes of gameplay", but at least they'd be outwardly ignorant in saying so since playing for score takes much more precedence over survival. I'd love to see time attack modes where you had to work alongside a friend over XBLA/PSN, on the same course or perhaps a sort of tag team mishmash (latency might be an issue)

I will probably get Pac-Man CE DX when I get paid again. I just wished they added multiplayer for this one (where's that port of Battle Royale?)

[Aleanil]

I think Time Attack-type modes / games would probably do well in the current, more casual focused market. Something that is a quick, pick up and play thing (XBLA, iOS, whatever) would be great. I really wish the iOS ports of ESPGaluda II and DDP had some sort of a time attack mode - I'd probably play them more, but as it is I rarely have the time to sit down and play 'em for a half hour to clear.

To complaints of repetitiveness: take a page from some other games, e.g. Mars Matrix. What you do during the stage / what you destroy will affect enemy formations and enemy placement. Variable enemy placement, or even variable routes like Homura would be an interesting thing to see in a modern-style shmup.

A competitive time attack shmup with friend support / leaderboards / something to actively compare you to other people you know would be really interesting. Geometry Wars did it for the arena shooter, there just needs to be that perfect game that inspires dozens of clones to revitalizes the TA subgenre.

[Ghegs]

Well, there is Star Soldier R which did the leaderboard thing quite nicely. But sadly it often got the same complaints from the mainstream that they make about full-length shmups: too short, too expensive and "just for the hardcore crowd". Not to say it didn't get some positive reviews as well, but still.

On the subject of time attack, I'm contemplating getting the Pink Sweets port just because the game has a caravan mode, even though I'm quite sure the main game is something I wouldn't particularly enjoy.

[szycag]

There's a lot of room for criticism with Star Soldier R, but I still liked it since I'm a fanboy. It really needed another stage or two to be worth 10 bucks, also it didn't stray too far from convention and could have benefitted from a more polished look.

[gs68]

Caravan modes, for me, are the only reason I have Super Star Soldier.

[CStarFlare]

nor downgrade the game to a portable.

I wouldn't mind a caravan/time attack only portable port.

I do agree that time attacks would either have to be cheap or accompanied by a "full" game mode.

[Kaiser]

Time trials, if anything, should be additional. They should not become the centre of attention, nor strip the game away from the original, nor downgrade the game to a portable.

Star Soldier R was a big money rip-off. One 5-minute stage isn't even worth that much.

[Frederik]

I definitely know what you´re talking about, szycag. The older I get the more I realize that I love shmups because of their general mechanics - doding enemy fire, taking down huge bosses piece by piece, trying to play better and with more elegance, and not because of their arcade structure - by that I mean the idea of starting the whole game from the first stage each time and try to get as far as possible.

I know it´s kind of heretic to even say that this approach might not necessarily the defining part of shooting games. Sure, the full 2-loop 1cc-run is still something that I admire; I just realized I don´t have the time, dedication and energy, let alone the patience to learn a game inside-out like that. If you take this hardcore approach to the extremes, you could even argue that console ports destroy the magic of the PCB by adding stage select - or even letting you pause. Hell, top japanese arcade players don´t need bathroom breaks! They keep their empty soda bottles under the cab!

I don´t think that the average modern mainstream gamer (whatever that is) doesn´t understand the general appeal of doding stuff while shooting stuff on a 2D plane - Geometry Wars was quite successful I assume! - I think it´s the 1cc-type structure that feels so foreign to most gamers who grew up with consoles that save their progress. As I said in the recent "What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?", I would love to have a shmup with tons of short stages, arranged in a Super Mario World type map, with different branches and hidden stages, unlocking new stages by beating the one you´re at, and ONLY the one you´re at (not replaying the whole game up to that point).

This way the game could be a LOT longer than traditional arcade shmups, have tons of content, and still be played for 10 or 20 minutes at a time. And the best thing about that would be that you wouldn´t have to touch any part of the actual game mechanics.

I´m repeating myself here, but compare it to jump`n`runs: Super Mario Bros has to be played from the start each time, and it´s an awesome, genre-defining game. But Mario World, Yoshis Island or the Wario Land series are terrific platformers as well, and nobody is arguing that the games lose something by not having to be replayed each time you start them up. The arcade structure of shmups have been so synonymous with the games themselves that a lot of people might argue that shaping the game mechanics into a different presentation might ruin them, however, a lot of modern arcadish-type games already do that and it works wonderfully.

One of the best times I have with shmups are simple stuff like playing the Batrider boss rush, or abusing savestates in DDP by starting with stage 4 or battling the stage 3 boss ten times in a row, trying different strategies. I love playing short, intense bursts, and would love to see that carry over into a full-sized shmup specifically made for a console or handheld (Ketsui Death Label kinda tried that, but it felt pretty wonky, with the messed-up life system, the broken scoring system and the general idea of scaling a huge arcade game down like that. I also really loved Bangai-O Spirits in that way; however, it felt a bit too open right from the start and I would have liked some sort of goal for each stage, like ranking my time or something like that.)

Sorry if I went a bit off-topic here and didn´t really talk about time attack specifically, but I think what you´re arguing falls into the same category

[Ruldra]

As it was said before, time attack should be a separate mode in the game, but not the whole game itself. Star Soldier R is a great shmup but far too short to be worthwhile. Same thing with Macross II, I really wish that game was a normal shmup instead of caravan.

I guess I'm the opposite of you guys, since I really like to play for long periods of time. My favorite shmups (Varth, Tatsujin Oh, Gradius III) are all very long games.

[szycag]

What about a game where time attack was the emphasis, but with a gauntlet mode where you could run through all the stages at once on three lives? Wouldn't that please players like Ruldra and Frederik alike? I just like the idea of getting half a dozen to a dozen 5-minute stages that could stand on their own. That is, they each have enough scoring nuances that you could just stick with one stage for hours and keep finding ways to drip out another 10k. I love that kind of thing.

What I hate, is playing the first two levels of an arcade shmup on every credit, and by the time I'm done with that I've forgotten what it was I did wrong in stage 3 on the last run. I hate fucking up on stage 1 just because I've played it a thousand times and I'm practically falling asleep from boredom. Those are arcade game conventions.

[gs68]

Recca-style time attack (where you must get x points ASAP) sounds like it could appeal to less hardcore fans, at least slightly more than a mode with a (to most players) meaningless number to increase as high as possible.

[Rob]

I would love to have a shmup with tons of short stages, arranged in a Super Mario World type map, with different branches and hidden stages,

I was thinking (dreaming) about making something like this recently. Someone has to do it.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Even in sub-one hour long arcade games, I find staying focused as long as I can rewarding in a way games fractured into "short bursts" (as if your average run wasn't short enugh) won't ever be able to replicate. Yes, technically a shmup is demountable along those lines without breaking its mechanics and losing its basic appeal, but this way the air of journey evaporates.
By all means include stage select, boss rush, time attack etc., experiment with world map modes, but if you make a shmup of ultra-short fragments, expect many complaints that it fell somewhat short of epic.
Although I wouldn't agree that games must have cutscenes and all that to be "immersive" (I for one found Tempest being "immersive" and Space Giraffe recaputred that feeling in a way), there are some qualities in the likes of RayForce (not even a farourite game of mine, but it's a good example), especially without loadings, that you can't hope to breath into a game of quick blast structure.
I guess shmups satisfying opposite tastes in this regard will be games of two halves, like Seirei Senshi Spriggan and Sonic Wings Special.

[Ruldra]

I would love to have a shmup with tons of short stages, arranged in a Super Mario World type map, with different branches and hidden stages,

I guess Hydorah qualifies.

[Xonatron]

You may want to check out our upcoming Xbox LIVE Indie Game, Score Rush:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33540

As mentioned in our thread, it fits the quick play gameplay mentioned earlier in this thread. Similar to Geometry Wars, where when you want to start at the beginning each time. I find it interesting that our choice in game style with Score Rush is similar to these ideas. It's a good thing!

Trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtuiCoQBwD8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtuiCoQBwD8&hd=1 (HD)

[szycag]

I will for sure be playing Score Rush, and so should everybody with access to XBL. Looks great.

[Xonatron]

I will for sure be playing Score Rush, and so should everybody with access to XBL. Looks great.

Thank you. It's intense. I was at the edge of my seat getting my PR last night. I hope I get to see some expert footage from some of you on youtube once it's released.

[Shatterhand]

What about a game where time attack was the emphasis, but with a gauntlet mode where you could run through all the stages at once on three lives? Wouldn't that please players like Ruldra and Frederik alike?

I was developing a game like this (With some pretty good graphics from a very talented artist), but it got stuck in development hell. It would be just 3 stages though

[Sandlegs]

CAVE CARAVAN!!! 2 & 5 MIN. MODE!!!

[Drum]

Yes. Time attack and procedural generation. Burn it down, burn it allllll down.

[Dave_K.]

Dangun and Pink Sweets time attack is not procedural generation.

[Drum]

?

[Drum]

I should just add one thing: Fixed time limit is the devil. Time extenders required. Maybe some sort of checkpoint system that kicks you out unless you pass it with a high enough score, gives you a time extend based on score. Something like that. But not shit or anything.