How to become a hc Shmupper?

[MrSandman]

Hi all!
I am seeking your advise on Shmups.

Recently I have discovered 'the real deal' (i.e.JAMMA games).
I am looking for real arcade/JAMMA Shmups (hopefully vertical ones).

However, I am a newbie to Shmups.
I have played Parodius on GB/SNES, Super R-Type, Burai Fighter Delux, Super Probotector and maybe some others, but my main focus is on Vs.Fighters like SFZ etc.

The last Shmup I have attempted was Ikaruga on GC...but I have to admit it was beyond my capabilities and understanding (of gameplay etc)

I have been googling for a while (youtube) for demos of Shmups (Raiden, Progear, Guwange, Dodonpatchi, R-Type Leo, Parodius, Darius, Aero Fighers, 19xx etc) to name a few.

So far, the only game that could tickle my fancy was 'Viewpoint' (I alwas wanted to have and play that game)

So my question to you hardcore Shmuppers is:

What Shmup would you consider as an entertaining 'entry' to Shmups in general (pro/cons)?
For example, i find Ikaruga 'fun' until stage 2 on 'easy', but all the technicals are too advanced to me (maybe like Soul Calibur to a Fighter newbe)
Later games have the habit of serving a core community, so they may demand a 'working knowledge' of the past 2-5 year or so (IMHO).

Thank you for your consideration and advice.
-MrSandman

[emphatic]

If you're in the US and have an XBox 360, you should pick up DeathSmiles.

[Drum]

I really, really don't know what to recommend to somebody who was taken by Viewpoint but not Guwange, Parodius or R-Type Leo. Sorry.
Personally, I sort of feel that there is no such thing as an entry-level shooter, as it's not that hard to get to grips with any of them, so you're better off just playing whatever you like the looks of.
I guess the closest thing I can think of would be the Blazing Lazers/Aleste games as they are pretty easy.
I'll just list a few that I think are great:
Gradius Gaiden (PSX, PSP)
Gradius V (PS2)
Gynoug (Genesis)
Bio-Hazard Battle (Genesis)
Sexy Parodius (arcade)
Lords of Thunder (TurboGrafx CD)
Truxton II (arcade)
X Multiply (arcade)

EDIT: Oh, I guess I wasn't paying attention to the JAMMA part.
My advice would be to not really worry about all that and just play a bunch of games. That stuff is for the truly obsessed - get obsessed first.

[Obiwanshinobi]

If you can play Japanese PlayStation or Saturn games and do not fear putting your telly (preferably CRT) on its side (while it's NOT switched on), get a hold of Sonic Wings Special (avoid the PAL version), set the monitor settings to Arcade, difficulty to Hard and experiment with various fighters until one of them clicks with you (Ka-50 Hokum has two firing modes, mind you, and autofire button activates only one of them). This game will teach you alright.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

For MrSandman,

The best way to be able to play Viewpoint (aside from picking up an Neo-Geo AES console + AES Viewpoint cartridge) would be to pick up a Jamma based Neo-Geo MVS motherboard, a Neo-Geo MVS Viewpoint game cartridge, and a supergun (with composite video, S-Video & Component Video output support). Or if you live Europe, a CRT monitor with Scart input would be best, then would need to get a scart cable coming out from said supergun into the TV monitor. By going this route, would be the easiest way to play MVS Viewpoint to your heart's desire.

Or if you feel adventurous by delving into the world of Japanese candy cabs with both feet wet, a Taito Egret 29 or Taito Egret II candy cab would fit the bill quite nicely as both have a 29" sized arcade monitor (which is easy on the eyes) -- you can play your favorite arcade PCBs in both horizontal and vertical screen modes with the super easy built-in rotating monitor mechanism. Then all you'd need is a Jamma MVS motherboard + MVS Viewpoint cart and you're all set. It's recommended to find a candy cab with an arcade monitor that doesn't have any "screen burn-in" issues whatsoever, otherwise, you'll be looking at a faint or very faint image of a static screen of the previous Jamma game installed in the arcade cabinet when playing your favorite games. Something to keep in mind.

Some Jamma based arcade PCBs are quite notorious for having super bright contrast levels, so it'd be best to tone down the contrast knob on the arcade monitor. The Cave produced Jamma PCBs like Dodonpachi Dai-Ou-Jou, Ketsui & ESPGaluda running on the IGS produced PGM arcade platform have overall super bright contrast levels that some low-resolution RGB monitors can't accept (resulting in slight graphical glitches shown on-screen) and thus must be toned down with some resistors placed on the RGB lines to more acceptable levels.

On the other hand, there are some Jamma PCBs with very low contrast levels like with the Technos produced PCBs. For instance, the American Technos produced arcade puzzler Jamma Blockout PCB is known to have very low contrast levels from the get-go when powered up. It'd be easier to crank up the brightness knob but don't turn it up too high or else, the dreaded "screen burn-in" issue might result. Again, by cranking up the RGB levels on the Blockout PCB, will it be easier to see and play. (Of course, this isn't an issue if you play such Technos arcade game roms on Mame or Mame32 emulation.)

The other benefits of owning a candy cab is that in addition to being able to play Jamma PCBs, you can also play your favorite old school gaming consoles + the latest gen consoles (like the Wii, XBox 360 & Playstation 3) and Mame emulation with the appropiate optional hardware on one. How cool is that?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[neorichieb1971]

He says he wants the REAL DEAL of Jamma games. Therefore I think he is talking of getting into the exclusive crowd of PCB collecting/playing.

As someone who dives in and out I can say that I started with MVS Blazing Star and then bought an ESP Ra.de. I was thrilled with both games. My next shooter after that I can't remember. It was probably flying shark. Then I went into Galaga 88.

I sold both G88 and Flying shark and ended up paying a small fortune to replace them again. Silly me.

[RNGmaster]

If you're playing games with the exclusive intention of being hardcore/impressing people, you're kind of missing the point. If you're just looking for a great way to have fun and become proud of your own skill, you can't go wrong with Dodonpachi or Batrider. You can, however, go wrong with Battle Garegga. I like it, but it's not for everyone.

[xris]

This is a weird topic. You can't really just try to be hardcore. You is or you ain't. It takes time and passion, maybe a little stoopidity. It's not about the way you dress, you sure cannot buy your way in. It's an attitude, experience, and knowledge.
Well, Ikaruga might be a good place to start, it has been for many before you. It's a decent trainer, sure the game mechanics are different, but so are many others. If it's something you enjoy to play, spend time with it. Watch some videos, learn to chain a couple levels, and after about 50 hours of practice you should be able to 1CC easy. That's the type of shit that sets you on the course to being hardcore.
If you are passionate about something, and willing to put some time and effort into it, talk to like minded people, just be enthusiastic, people notice. Nobody likes a poseur. Play what interest you, try to be honest about how you feel toward your hobbies, and learn about them. There are many people here that have really casual attitudes, but would be labeled as hardcore by an outsider, it's just their perception of it. The truth is, the mindset they have makes them hardcore.

[nimitz]

Dodonpachi

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Once you get bitten by the arcade PCB bug, there ain't no turning back. Getting your first Cave shmup PCB is doing it in style. Can't just stop at one once you try one out at say like a shmupmeet or at an arcade/pinball gaming convention like the California Extreme shows. Even the groovy Dangun Feveron/Fever SOS PCB is far out with a disco ball lit up in the background to spice things up.

Upon trying out Dodonpachi at a Japanese game center, I knew that sooner or later I'd end up owning the real deal that is the DDP PCB a few years down the road. Tis a shame that Atlus USA didn't distribute DDP PCB conversion kits Stateside even though they did distribute Donpachi PCB conversion kits with the cool full-sized marquee. Perhaps Atlus USA thought that American arcade gamers weren't ready for a true danmaku experience with DDP. We'll really never know why.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Obiwanshinobi]

Capcom did release Progear in the US... with voices hacked out.

[captpain]

Dodonpachi

THE ANSWER TO ANY NEW-TO-SHMUPS "WHAT TO PLAY?" QUESTION IS

DODONPACHI

[Drum]

Don't play Dodonpachi. Play a good shooter, like Gradius V.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Don't play Dodonpachi. Play a good shooter, like Gradius V.

That would be a good advice, but:

a) Gradius V can be played on a horizontal monitor
b) it came out for a mainstream system
c) in all regions.

Dunno if it's hardcore enough. Sometimes people speak it's name on mainstream gaming forums. Once in a blue moon, but still...

[mesh control]

Thunderforce II-IV. go, go, go.

[Drum]

@OWS: Well, he said he doesn't want a hardcore game - just a hardcore setup. idk why. Gradius V is not a pushover at all, anyways, and the gameplay is about as sophisticated as anything out there. Obviously he's free to ignore my advice, but I think he's better off not going all-in with the hardware at first (or ever, really). Just seems ... weird. Hell, maybe he won't even really like the genre. Just get some rad games that almost everybody likes, maybe dl a ton of MAME roms, and play stuff.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I'd suggest something with a bigger hitbox. Something primordial. Of course Gradius V's small hitbox makes sense as the game is designed around it, but making impression that it's either Gradius V or DoDonPachi - the pimp's shmup of the internet, leaves out in the cold a whole bunch of shmups with more edgy feel so to speak. I suggested Sonic Wings Special before somebody says Psikyo (which is pretty much the same, but not as pure and bullshitless), because on hard it takes every single skill you'll ever need in most shmups, chews on it and spits it in your face if it's not honed well enough. It's a game carved in the very flesh and bone of the shmupness.
Of course it'd be nice of me to recommend also a horizontal shmup this pure, but I can't think of a single one ticking all the boxes. Everybody should certainly give R-Type a chance. It obviously doesn't click with everyone, but deserves that chance, that's for sure.

[kemical]

my best advice is to buy a Raiden PCB or Sky Shark for cheap and play the shit out of them. Focus on games from that era, late 80's to early 90's. Don't get caught up in the bullet hell current day stuff until you have wrapped your head around the early games and are feeling that you are enjoying the simplicity and challenge of them.

[t0yrobo]

Battle Bakraid, but don't bother with any scoring beyond medaling. It's a great beginner game, and lots of fun to just play for survival once you've got the hang of it.

[MrSandman]

Hi all!

Thank you all for numerous advices; having a scoop of opinions really helped a lot

I also had Raiden in mind and Gradius 5 also looks interesting as does Parodius Otomedius.
Sky Shark seems quite old but I think this could really be a staring point.

See, I do enjoy Ikaruga and I relly want to be able to play and enjoy the game (and others as well).
Its just that I feel that I am lacking the 'intuition' to play the game, so I hoped through playing other (older/simpler/easier) games I can get a general feeling for the genre.
Looks like you guys set me on the right track for that

Some things I didn't express correctly:
By 'hardcore' i actually meant 'skilled' - sorry if this generated any confusion.
I don't collect PCBs per se, but there are some games I'd like to own in its most original form, which would be the arcade version.
I am familiar with JAMMA/PCBs/MAK/SuperGun, having some CPS2 games at home - sorry for not mentioning that earlier.

[Drum]

Hi all!

Thank you all for numerous advices; having a scoop of opinions really helped a lot

I also had Raiden in mind and Gradius 5 also looks interesting as does Parodius Otomedius.
Sky Shark seems quite old but I think this could really be a staring point.

See, I do enjoy Ikaruga and I relly want to be able to play and enjoy the game (and others as well).
Its just that I feel that I am lacking the 'intuition' to play the game, so I hoped through playing other (older/simpler/easier) games I can get a general feeling for the genre.
Looks like you guys set me on the right track for that

Some things I didn't express correctly:
By 'hardcore' i actually meant 'skilled' - sorry if this generated any confusion.
I don't collect PCBs per se, but there are some games I'd like to own in its most original form, which would be the arcade version.
I am familiar with JAMMA/PCBs/MAK/SuperGun, having some CPS2 games at home - sorry for not mentioning that earlier.

I urge you to not bother with Otomedius. Sexy Parodius and Gokujyou Parodius, yes.

[MrSandman]

I really, really don't know what to recommend to somebody who was taken by Viewpoint but not Guwange, Parodius or R-Type Leo....
I urge you to not bother with Otomedius. Sexy Parodius and Gokujyou Parodius, yes.

Hello Drum!

If i am not misunderstanding your first statement, then there are better games than Viewpoint.
Could you please tell me what, in your opinion, VP is not doing so well that other shooters are doing better (e.g. Graphic/Sound/Fairness/Glitches)?

And what is wrong with Otomedius (wont be what I am looking for/dissappointing sequel)?

Thanks for your advice, I really appreciate it.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Hmm im alittle out of my depth here as I usually just recomend easy PC shmups like Blue wish resurrection, exceed 3: black package and demolition gunner: isad as they have auto-bomb or shield so that a shmup noob can stay in the game longer which will help develop basic dodging skills quickly plus gets the anti creditfeed / 1CC bug quickly and easily

While im not into pcbs myself for arcade games my 2 cents are Dodonpachi, Gekrinden or Rayforce (i think thats the name of the arcade original)

I would suggest you take the time to install shmupMAME laggless (theres a thread for it in this forum) get yourself some ROMs of the most popular shmups and find out what you like and dislike and buy the pcbs of the shmups you want to spend time with for 1CC or score play.

[NzzpNzzp]

And what is wrong with Otomedius (wont be what I am looking for/dissappointing sequel)?

The level design is horribly boring. Nearly every level is just flying straight forward killing waves of easy enemies and barely moving because there's hardly any terrain. I've played Gradius Gaiden like a billion times and the levels are still interesting. Otomedius was old after one run.
Also massive slowdown half the time/bosses who won't shut up/no speed stage. And of course it's pretty hard to even think of playing the game without feeling like a huge loser due to that whole massively sexualised anime characters thing.

[antares]

Viewpoint is one of the most unforgiving and hardest shmups of that era. I'd definitely not recommend it for starters.

I'd get Epsrade or Espgaluda on PCB as these are fairly easy, not to expensive and have great gameplay.

If you want to get better at Ikaruga watch a few replays to understamd how it is meant to be played. If you have an X360 download Ikaruga from XBLA and watch the replays of the top players. The scoring system is very easy to understand really. Then play Ikaruga on normal for an hour a day. Don't continue if you are Game Over, start from the beginning.
You will get much better after a few weeks.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Yea not credit feeding a shmup and trying to beat it on a single credit (1CC) or atleast aim for a 2CC or 3CC is what changes a mindless shooter into the deep and complex games shmups are since you need get a deep understanding of the game to beat a hard shmup (or any hard arcade game aswell). Playing for a high score is equally important aswell. Its just some shmuppers play more for completion and some invest more time into score. But both aspects cant be fully ignored if one wants to suceed in the other.

Many of us guys who are passionate about 1CC / scoreplay and tell credit feeders that they are playing it wrong and that it cheapens shmups get labelled as elitist but really all we want to do is to open up casual shmuppers to the great fun and challenge to be had. Tate can be another thing we get branded as elitist. But its fun when you get the odd thread post where the OP says hes Tated or 1CCed for the 1st time and is totally on cloud 9

(i know i like to go off on a tangent but let a old dog have his fun)

[Drum]

I really, really don't know what to recommend to somebody who was taken by Viewpoint but not Guwange, Parodius or R-Type Leo....
I urge you to not bother with Otomedius. Sexy Parodius and Gokujyou Parodius, yes.

Hello Drum!

If i am not misunderstanding your first statement, then there are better games than Viewpoint.
Could you please tell me what, in your opinion, VP is not doing so well that other shooters are doing better (e.g. Graphic/Sound/Fairness/Glitches)?

And what is wrong with Otomedius (wont be what I am looking for/dissappointing sequel)?

Thanks for your advice, I really appreciate it.

It's not that I think Viewpoint is bad (I don't, but I don't think it's amazing either), it's just really hard to know what to recommend somebody who likes it above a bunch of what I consider to be classic games. It sorts of stands alone so it's hard to go 'If you like Viewpoint you might like ...'.
Otomedius is just a mess, unfortunately - play its sister games instead: Gradius Gaiden, Gradius V, the Parodius series ... any of them is preferable, all of them are easy to track down.