Most Controversial Shmup?

[Aliquantic]

What would happen if DeathSmiles became known outside the shmup community? Just think of the controversy!

I think Touhou would fit that role even better... it's controversial both here and with outsiders!

It is my belief that battle garegga is unique in the fact that many players consider it a good game, but the number of poeple in the world who can single life clear it can almost certainly be counted on one hand.

t
If any member of this board can actually single life clear this game without tool assistance, I will take back everything i've ever said about it.

Well, there's always KET! Technically a member of this board and a world record holder on Garegga... his score runs are far more impressive than a 1-life, however. I'm not sure what your "member of this board" requirement is for, however, since there are a fair amount of games that have yet to be cleared by anybody on this board (let alone 1-lifed).

[Demetori]

. But, it we don't see some innovation soon, I fear the shooter is dead to all but portable systems. I hope I am wrong!

With fans, no genre can die.

HAVE A CARD!


Can't remember what he actually says, but I think it was that. AND MY GOD IT DRIVES ME CRAZY.

[drauch]

Darius rulez. Don't be haterz.

[linko9]

Didn't got through the whole thread, but I'd say Ikaruga. Seems to have lots of rabid fans (though not so many here), and lots of detractors. I'm personally in the middle, I've never been sucked in to the game, but I did enjoy the 15 or so hours I spent with it.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

This thread gives me the perfect opportunity to go off on an anti Touhou (fan) and Ikaruga rant but atm im feeling quite chilled out atm so ill save this for later [enter rant here]

[drauch]

I say Ikaruga, especially after that giant thread spawned like a month ago on how western audiences think it's the greatest shmup ever. It's a well made and interesting game, yeah, but Id really rather play any other shmup.

[Estebang]

I say Ikaruga, especially after that giant thread spawned like a month ago on how western audiences think it's the greatest shmup ever.

This is only because they're repeatedly told this by the mainstream press, who have a habit of giving games like Knights in the Nightmare (which coincidentally has shmup elements) the benefit of the doubt when they don't understand/suck at them. Not to mention that the timing of Atari's GC release couldn't have been better: it came out at a time when more people than ever (including myself) were discovering this website and starting to get into shmups, and it was one of the only ones available on post-Dreamcast consoles.

[Drum]

somehow there are at least 2 Darius games on this board's top 25 shmups.

What the fuck are you talking about

Yeah, looks like I'm dumb. Guess I misread the hon. mentions as the main list or something - idk, I saw it when I was running a board search for something else. Actually, ~10 Cave games is worse than a Darius game making it.

[drauch]

I say Ikaruga, especially after that giant thread spawned like a month ago on how western audiences think it's the greatest shmup ever.

This is only because they're repeatedly told this by the mainstream press, who have a habit of giving games like Knights in the Nightmare (which coincidentally has shmup elements) the benefit of the doubt when they don't understand/suck at them. Not to mention that the timing of Atari's GC release couldn't have been better: it came out at a time when more people than ever (including myself) were discovering this website and starting to get into shmups, and it was one of the only ones available on post-Dreamcast consoles.

Well, yeah, that's kinda what that whole aforementioned thread was about...

[Drum]

I say Ikaruga, especially after that giant thread spawned like a month ago on how western audiences think it's the greatest shmup ever.

This is only because they're repeatedly told this by the mainstream press, who have a habit of giving games like Knights in the Nightmare (which coincidentally has shmup elements) the benefit of the doubt when they don't understand/suck at them. Not to mention that the timing of Atari's GC release couldn't have been better: it came out at a time when more people than ever (including myself) were discovering this website and starting to get into shmups, and it was one of the only ones available on post-Dreamcast consoles.

Ok, you got me - what's wrong with Knights in the Nightmare now?

[Estebang]

Ok, you got me - what's wrong with Knights in the Nightmare now?

Nothing really, it's a well-designed and wonderfully strange SRPG. I was just using it as an example of another game that got mostly glowing reviews despite none of the reviewers understanding anything about how to play it.

The shmup element is that the battles see you guiding around a wisp with the touch screen (PSP version uses the nub), avoiding large projectiles and the occasional bullet pattern.

And sue me for not having read the old thread, at least I didn't plagiarize anything from it.

[BIL]

Actually, ~10 Cave games is worse than a Darius game making it.

True, that. Zing!

[Drum]

Ok, you got me - what's wrong with Knights in the Nightmare now?

Nothing really, it's a well-designed and wonderfully strange SRPG. I was just using it as an example of another game that got mostly glowing reviews despite none of the reviewers understanding anything about how to play it.

Well, that's ok. otoh, I know I sure as hell don't understand Knights, but I do like it!

And sue me for not having read the old thread, at least I didn't plagiarize anything from it.

I do not understand this comment.

[drauch]

And sue me for not having read the old thread, at least I didn't plagiarize anything from it.

I do not understand this comment.[/quote]

Yeah, wut?

[Ed Oscuro]

Come to think of it, Border Down seems to generate different kinds of opinions. Live and let enjoy crap games, I say!

[Slump]

Come to think of it, Border Down seems to generate different kinds of opinions. Live and let enjoy crap games, I say!

Yeah actually, the Dreamcast has quite a few controversial ones. Border Down, Under Defeat, and Ikaruga all have some pretty varying opinions.

[RNGmaster]

Touhou. When people talk about it at all, they get laughed off as amateurs. Yes, it has a scoreboard, but otherwise there's a lot of resentment and I see people refusing to talk about it or hurriedly insulting it after saying something appreciative.

[zaphod]

It has come to my attention that Battle Garegga can be single life cleared by doing a pacifist run, killing no enemies that are not required to advance the game.

I will only take back what I say about the game when i see someone on here single life clear the game, while still shooting down more than 50% of the enemies in each level.

[BIL]

I will only take back what I say about the game when i see someone on here single life clear the game, while still shooting down more than 50% of the enemies in each level.

In Garegga's case this would be a stunt akin to clearing a Takumi game without the shield, or a Psyvariar without buzzing. You'd get no recognition from the game despite the difficulty, and your score would suck. You're asking players to break a game in order to legitimise it for some arbitrary personal standard.

Considering the sheer intensity of a high-scoring Garegga run, where you'll have to deliberately come within a hair of game over countless times for the best results, often while chasing medals through those loveable grey bullets and craptons of shrapnel, I don't think any fan of the game will give a flying fuck if someone dislikes suiciding. It's their problem. If you think it degrades the challenge in some way you're mistaken (unless you're happy settling for less than your best possible score).

God knows I'm not the only one who'll take a Garegga or Border Down over a Thunder Force V (zzz... holy crap, it's the last boss -> NO MISS BONUS YEAHH -> zzz...).

edit: forgot quote

[Limbrooke]

God knows I'm not the only one who'll take a Garegga or Border Down over a Thunder Force V (zzz... holy crap, it's the last boss -> NO MISS BONUS YEAHH -> zzz...).

In the long term, certainly. Pardon squeezing out fasters kills and more milking, to reach the limit on Thunder Force 5 is far easier attained than Battle Garegga or Border Down. Outside of the obvious challenge difference, TF5 can still stand on it's own for someone new and can provide a good starting point and despite the claimed downgrade from TF4, it's still enjoyable/fun to a degree. The further down the path you go, it's apparent that skill will improve to the point where if one is so inclined that challenge requirement goes right along with it. It often boils down to "A game is easy by [my/yours] standards and B game is hard/challenging (see: possibly better designed, not necessarily), therefore I'd rather play B as some tangible progress or sense of accomplishment is fit to stand" with reciprocation that is "...as a result of experience between the two, A can be said to be inferior to B.". I enjoy and have spent more time with Garegga than TF5, and I too would rank Garegga higher but not solely on the fact it's a harder game. Despite challenge/design representing a good degree of significance, counting that as the only justification is narrow-minded so I try to avoid that confrontation.

Just saw zlk's comment on DonPachi. I have to say it fits the bill quite nicely and the day when sikraiken drops a 60 000 000 run down will be a one for the ages.

[BIL]

It's not that I particularly hate TFV (it's decently playable in my book, but totally outmoded by TFIV and Hyper Duel). I just dislike the implication that highly technical shooters like Garegga and BD, where extra lives are a scoring resource, are somehow "broken" or less worthwhile than 1LC-focused ones, regardless of the actual skill involved in high-level play.

[Limbrooke]

It's not that I particularly hate TFV (it's decently playable in my book, but totally outmoded by TFIV and Hyper Duel). I just dislike the implication that highly technical shooters like Garegga and BD, where extra lives are a scoring resource, are somehow "broken" or less worthwhile than 1LC-focused ones regardless of the actual skill involved in high-level play.

It's apples to oranges. No individual is the authority over the whole genre, and to state games akin to Battle Garegga are "broken" / inferior to complete survival / "end-of-game bonus" games is inconclusive. It's exclusive to that individual so why should it bother someone else based on their preference? Broken could be said to represent the breakdown in personal preference / acclimation. If there was more discussion understanding the opposing ideas that make up the difference, there might not be such heated division.

[BPzeBanshee]

It's not that I particularly hate TFV (it's decently playable in my book, but totally outmoded by TFIV and Hyper Duel). I just dislike the implication that highly technical shooters like Garegga and BD, where extra lives are a scoring resource, are somehow "broken" or less worthwhile than 1LC-focused ones regardless of the actual skill involved in high-level play.

It's apples to oranges. No individual is the authority over the whole genre, and to state games akin to Battle Garegga are "broken" / inferior to complete survival / "end-of-game bonus" games is inconclusive. It's exclusive to that individual so why should it bother someone else based on their preference? Broken could be said to represent the breakdown in personal preference / acclimation. If there was more discussion understanding the opposing ideas that make up the difference, there might not be such heated division.

I agree with this. In terms of enjoying and scoring in a game I can't and will not raise one up or down from games made with different ideas. There is no 'absolutely perfect' shmup to base off, because in the end it is always a difference of opinion.
Just look at the entire Thunder Force series for example. Difficulty and scoring methods vary greatly throughout the series, and if I didn't know better I'd say TF II was the hardest one out of the whole lot. Or if you count the original Thunder Force it's harder still, I can't get to the second stage a lot of the time on that. Then you have games like TF III and V which aren't as difficult in some areas but aren't lesser because of it (in fact I believe the series became popular in a larger area as a direct result of TF III).

Speaking of which, I think Broken Thunder's gotta be one of the taboo subjects here. Apparently one person got threatened with a ban for asking about Broken Thunder if memory serves.

[gennss]

RSG, some people say its terrible, some say its great, some say its only worth $0.99 others say its worth every penny of the $200+ it costs (or did cost).

[esreveR]

The most controversial shmup is obviously Battle Garegga. I have arguments with myself over it.

I see Ikaruga as pretty well-liked by everyone except me.

Not sure about you guys but Pink Sweets seemed to me like a very bad direction for Ibara to take. Maybe it was just me.

My head feels empty right now so I'll just end here and edit later. Maybe.