Wii screen size

[ShutokouBattle]

Sorry, this doesn't have anything directly to do with shmups, but it has a lot to do with videogame hardware in general.

I have a problem either with my TV or my Wii that causes the image not to be shown at the correct aspect ratio. When I have the TV set to 16:9 and the Wii set to widescreen, the Wii Menu and most Wii games display correctly; that is, they take up the whole screen. However, Gamecube games (every one I've tried, regardless of whether they are 480i or 480p) and some Wii games do not display correctly. It would appear that the Wii games that do this are not widescreen games; for example, WarioWare: Smooth Moves does this. On these games, when the TV is set to 16:9 mode, the image does not fill the whole screen; there are black bars to the sides. It doesn't make the image 4:3, though - the image is wider than 4:3 but narrower than 16:9. Switching the TV to display the image in 4:3 mode doesn't help; the image is then narrower than 4:3 (I've measured it).

I've tried every aspect ratio that my TV has to offer and I've looked through all of the menus. No matter what I do, I can't get the image to display correctly. Someone on ASSEMblergames suggested that it could be because my TV is unable automatically adjust for the letterboxing the Wii creates, with the implication that most TV's do this.

I've noticed that I have the same problem if I play PSX games on my PS3 with the output set to 480p. I think I had a similar problem with my Dreamcast over VGA, but I was able to solve that because the VGA input on my TV has an option for you to manually change the horizontal size of the image. There is no such option for component or any other input. I have PS2 and a component cable, but I've yet to test whether I get the same problem with that. I will probably test it within a week or so. By the way, my TV is an LG 32LH30.

What do you think could be the cause of this? What is the solution?

[ZOM]

I can already tell you that you will have the same problem with the PS2... but I don't really know the exact reason for this, I'm guessing it's something to do with the source's pixel aspect and what the TV does with it. I might be wrong though.
The only solution that comes to mind is hooking a VP with the ability to stretch the image, or something that alters pixel aspect, since the "4:3" image is clearly squished.

[StarCreator]

The Wii only supports up to 480p, which is pretty much a clusterfuck when you throw widescreen aspects into the mix.

Basically, a widescreen 480p signal is no different from a standard 480p signal - the source is actually compressing what would be the 16:9 widescreen image to fit in a 4:3 signal (a process called anamorphic widescreen). So, the Wii is actually always outputting a 4:3 signal, and the burden is on the user to switch the display mode when the software it is running doesn't support rendering in anamorphic 16:9.

I have access to a Wii but haven't done much experimenting in this regard, so I can't say for sure this is the issue here though. There are ways for the source to signal the correct output ratio, but I don't know if the Wii uses them. It's also possible your display doesn't understand them, even if they are present (our old RP CRT definitely didn't).

[neorichieb1971]

Yeah, its like a magic mirror. 480p is only 480 lines in 4:3 mode. To make it 16:9 the image is distorted 4:3 pulled outwards at the sides and geometry makes it look like a 16:9 image when really its not. Its the way it worked on DVD. Otherwise if you had a 4:3 TV and put widescreen on it, it would only take about 250 lines since the rest is black borders. Which on DVD was a waste of disc space. Why do this? Because HDTV have 1080 lines, so might as well cram as much detail in that 480 line restriction as possible!

With videogames, its likely most of the wii/GC games were never native 16:9.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MK5-tkE ... 1&index=37

Look at the original squished image on the left, which is distorted anamorphic. Stretched out it looks like 16:9.

If you look at Panzer Dragoon on the Saturn in 16:9, its just a distorted 4:3. You can do that with polygons since its realtime calculated. If the game is sprite based, it will stretch out of wack.

[ShutokouBattle]

The Wii only supports up to 480p, which is pretty much a clusterfuck when you throw widescreen aspects into the mix.

Basically, a widescreen 480p signal is no different from a standard 480p signal - the source is actually compressing what would be the 16:9 widescreen image to fit in a 4:3 signal (a process called anamorphic widescreen). So, the Wii is actually always outputting a 4:3 signal, and the burden is on the user to switch the display mode when the software it is running doesn't support rendering in anamorphic 16:9.

Right, that makes sense. But the issue is not the ability to change display modes; as I said, I've tried every display mode my TV has to offer and none of them display the Wii's image correctly. It would appear, from my perspective, that games that are supposedly 4:3 to begin with do not fill the whole frame, whereas games in anamorphic 16:9 do. My TV has various display modes to account for the image being a strange size, but none that account for it being squished horizontally. I should also note that while F-Zero GX has a widescreen mode, it has the same issue as all other Gamecube games. Changing the Wii's setting from widescreen to standard doesn't make any difference either.

[njiska]

Your TV is displaying the image correctly. I'm not entirely sure why but a number of Wii games choose to use the 1.66:1 aspect ratio, instead of the more standard 1.78 or 1.85:1. As the image is not as wide as a normal 16:9 image black bars must be added. Those black bars on the left and right are actually encoded in the video signal. If you put your TV in 4:3 mode you should be able to see that they're still there. I first noticed this when playing Fatal Frame IV.

Near as I can tell they do this because of however overscan works on analog 16x9 TVs.

[ShutokouBattle]

Well, I just tried connecting my PS2 and it does the same thing. Like the Wii, it doesn't matter if the image is 480i or 480p. Just like the Wii the image is neither 16:9 nor 4:3 but somewhere in between. Changing the aspect ratio setting in the PS2 settings doesn't make any difference either. It's really a shame because, aside from the screen size, the image looks excellent. Maybe I should call LG and see if they can help me. Maybe it needs a firmware update or something. Any other ideas?

[StarCreator]

Changing the aspect ratio setting on the video source isn't going to make a difference. As I said, the source should always be outputting full frame video, though it is reasonable for older video game consoles to not fill the entire picture for performance reasons. But most of the time, the amount of space where no picture is rendered is far beyond the safe title overscan range, and thus you shouldn't even be seeing it.

At this point, it would probably be most productive to show us a photo of the PS2's default menu as it appears on your TV.

[ShutokouBattle]

I don't see what the point of showing you the menu is. It's mostly black, so you can't see where the edges of the frame are. I've included it anyway.



Here's a photo of the PS2 running Tekken 4 at 480p. The incorrect size is clearly visible.



I tried emailing LG, but the system they use for sending messages seems to be broken. I'll try contacting them another way tomorrow.

[njiska]

I don't see what the point of showing you the menu is. It's mostly black, so you can't see where the edges of the frame are. I've included it anyway.

You don't need to see the edge of the image as we can tell whether or not it'd correct by the gap between version and the edge of the screen. Which it looks like it is to me, but I don't have my PS2 in front of me at the moment. It still looks to me like the issue is with the resolution of the game itself and not the display.

Another simple test is this:

- Put game system and the display mode in 4:3 where it pillar boxes both sides properly.
- Measure the distance across the image. Mark the edges of the display with a piece of tape.
- Put the system in 16:9 mode but leave the TV in 4:3
- Once more measure and mark. If there is a black space between the marks you made and the image then those black bars are in the video source and not being caused by the TV.
- Measure the distance between the side of the image to verify.

Just because a game can display in 16:9 does not mean it will use the entire area. Just like some dvd's on 16:9 displays still have tiny black bars on the bottom, so can games on the sides.

FYI: From what I can find for information Tekken 4 isn't even supposed to be a Widescreen capable game. Just 4:3 480p. It's Tekken 5 that added 16:9 support.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pl ... HD_support

[StarCreator]

In my experience, PS2 games aren't restricted by the aspect ratio setting in the system menu - the setting in the system menu usually only applies to DVDs.

As for taking a photo of the system menu, I think I meant to have you open up the system menu so the big blue clock would be visible in the background. Sorry, it's been ages since I've had my PS2 hooked up x_x Regardless, it was useful to make sure your TV wasn't set to a distorted zoom mode, since the letters on the menu look to be stretched uniformly.

In any case, besides the fact you're stretching 4:3 horizontally (you really should pillar box on the display end if you're playing 4:3 content), I'm not seeing a huge problem - the amount of black space suggests to me your display genuinely has near-zero (if any) overscan, which in my book is a good thing - you're seeing more of the picture than most sets display. As I said previously, games on the Wii, PS2, and older consoles generally fill less of the display than standard TV content for performance reasons.

I've played Tekken 4 on TVs where you couldn't even see the timer on top of the lifebar due to the overscan. Count yourself lucky.

[Ganelon]

Are you saying those images are from 16:9 mode? That looks like the 4:3 menu being stretched to fill your 16:9 monitor to me. Systems like the Wii, PS2, and prior aren't smart and can only display a 4:3 image, whether that was drawn for 4:3 or an anamorphic 4:3 image that's intended to be stretched to 16:9 by your monitor. So I don't understand why this may be an issue with your monitor. If your PS3 or 360 was displaying this sort of picture while in 16:9 mode and with proper cables, then that might actually be a legitimate concern.

From what I've seen, most Wii games (outside of some first-party titles like Super Mario Galaxy and Brawl) just stretch the 4:3 picture if you change the system setting to 16:9 rather than squeeze a widescreen picture into 4:3 so that you have correct proportions when it's stretched. Of course, I could be misinterpreting your issue entirely.

[ShutokouBattle]

Another simple test is this:

- Put game system and the display mode in 4:3 where it pillar boxes both sides properly.
- Measure the distance across the image. Mark the edges of the display with a piece of tape.
- Put the system in 16:9 mode but leave the TV in 4:3
- Once more measure and mark. If there is a black space between the marks you made and the image then those black bars are in the video source and not being caused by the TV.
- Measure the distance between the side of the image to verify.

There's no need to do this because I can already tell from changing the options in the PS2 menu that there's no difference between 4:3 mode and 16:9 mode except letterboxing at the top and bottom of the screen in 16:9 mode. Also, I did a similar test when I set my TV to 4:3 and measured the height and width of the image. The proportions were not 4:3, they were narrower.

In any case, besides the fact you're stretching 4:3 horizontally (you really should pillar box on the display end if you're playing 4:3 content), I'm not seeing a huge problem - the amount of black space suggests to me your display genuinely has near-zero (if any) overscan, which in my book is a good thing - you're seeing more of the picture than most sets display. As I said previously, games on the Wii, PS2, and older consoles generally fill less of the display than standard TV content for performance reasons.

I'm only stretching the image so it's easy to see the black bars on the sides. If I could get the image proportioned correctly then I would probably pillar box it. The issue is that, as I stated above, when the image is pillar boxed, it's pillar boxed too much. That is, the image is not 4:3 but more like 3.5:3 or something like that. Also, my TV has a "Just Scan" mode for HDMI sources that supposedly shows more of the image than most TVs are able to show. When I use that setting there is no black space and the image is proportioned correctly. The issue with 480i/480p content isn't a huge one, but I'm just kind of obsessed about this sort of thing.

If, as you suggest, my TV has near-zero overscan, then why do widescreen Wii games take up the whole screen whereas Gamecube games and PS2 games do not?

[StarCreator]

Hmm. If the proportions are off, it could very well be a defective or improperly programmed scaler. I haven't seen one work quite that badly, however...

On the difference between Wii and PS2/Gamecube, the latter consoles generally output 480i (and can only be switched to 480p if the game itself supports it, and only after the game has launched, either through the options menu or holding a certain combination of buttons as the game loads). If your Wii is set to output 480p at all times, that'd be an easy way to explain the difference.

[ShutokouBattle]

You could be right that there's something wrong with the scaler. Although, I don't think it's actually 3.5:3, I just gave that number to give a broad idea of the difference. I forgot to write down the ratio I got when I did the measurements, and I don't have a measuring tape with me at the moment.

My Wii is always set to 480p (in the settings), but it doesn't always output 480p. When it's running a standard Gamecube game without progressive support it outputs 480i. I can tell this because my TV has a button labeled "Info" that tells you the resolution, whether it is interlaced or progressive, and sometimes the framerate of the video input. I haven't tried an actual Gamecube because I don't have Gamecube component cables, but I suspect the same thing would happen.

Also, the issue I'm having doesn't seem to have anything to do with whether the image is 480i or 480p. Most (though not all) Wii games display correctly (which are all 480p), but not a single Gamecube game, regardless of whether it's 480i or 480p, displays correctly. Likewise, on the PS2 the issue occurs with both 480i and 480p games.

[gundamalpha]

You need to manually activate PScan on GC games by holding the red button (I think) upon boot up

[njiska]

You need to manually activate PScan on GC games by holding the red button (I think) upon boot up

It's B, I think that's the red one.

[ShutokouBattle]

Every game I've played that was 480p has asked me when I started the game whether or not I want to enable progressive scan. It does this even if you have said yes before; it doesn't seem to save the setting.

And yes, B is red.

[ZOM]

Of course, I could be misinterpreting your issue entirely.

Well... I think you (or most of the replies in general) are.
For clarification on the issue that lalilulelo is having: The problem is that he gets "tiny" black vertical bars on the sides of the picture. They're there in 4:3 but also in 16:9, making the image shown slightly more narrow than it should be - round objects in 4:3 games will appear slightly squished along the X axis. But NOT because the source is 16:9.
Like I mentioned before, I *think* this is because the final image is showing in a 1.0 pixel aspect ratio instead of the presumably needed non-square pixel aspect ratios those consoles use for certain games.

Again, I'm not 100% sure if that really is the issue, but it's the only reason I can think of. And if that's really the case, the only way to change it is either stretching the picture within your TV's service menu, or if not possible, use some sort of Videoprocessor to do the stretching.

@lalilulelo
Please correct me if I'm the one misinterpreting your problem

[StarCreator]

I'm fully aware of analog signals not being represented digitally as square pixels. It's the responsibility of the scaler to display the image at the correct aspect ratio. If it doesn't, the scaler is either malfunctioning or just badly programmed.

[ZOM]

Yes, I'm guessing the latter.
Although, my "bedroom"-sony has the same problem.

[neorichieb1971]

Most likely LG are using the double pixel rate. Which essentially just doubles the height and width to 960p leaving a border round the outside. If you play PS2 games on a PS3 you can choose the 1080 option which will fill the screen, but you'll lose resolution compared to the 480p option built into the game because the 1080 option upscales the 480i image, not the 480p one.

Unfortunately.

[Ganelon]

Again, I'm not 100% sure if that really is the issue, but it's the only reason I can think of. And if that's really the case, the only way to change it is either stretching the picture within your TV's service menu, or if not possible, use some sort of Videoprocessor to do the stretching.

Ah, that makes sense. Just showing those 4:3 ratio games stretched to almost-16:9 and saying the problem is "clearly visible" wasn't the best idea in representing the problem.

Is there any actual scanning issue though or is the full image being shown but in <4:3 ratio? Judging from the T4 picture's lifebar position to the side of the picture, I'm assuming it's the latter case.

If certain game signals are being scaled correctly despite scaling issues in others, then it would seem like these are the few games that output an even 4:3 aspect ratio (i.e. the square pixel case you mentioned). In that case, I guess the next step to seeing if that's true would be researching which resolutions the games are actually outputting and seeing if those with lower horizontal res are the ones being scaled incorrectly. It's hard to believe that T4 wouldn't be outputting a plain 640x480 picture though...

As for a double pixel rate, that sounds good for the problematic games but how does that account for no borders in certain Wii games when the Wii is still sending a 480p image in all cases?

[ShutokouBattle]

ZOM: Yes, you interpreted what my issue correctly. As to your theory explaining why it's happening, I really don't know. The fact that it happens on both Gamecube games and PS2 games (and even PS1 games when played on a PS3 at 480p) seems to imply that this is not an issue with the way those consoles output video, but with the way that my TV handles that signal - as you seem to think as well. It doesn't sound like this is a common issue with many different TVs, either.

I'm leaning towards StarCreator's hypothesis; it's just a poorly programmed scaler. Manufacturers cut corners on things like this all the time; they might have even realized the issue, but didn't bother to fix it because they figured most people wouldn't notice or care (which is probably true). I've been meaning to call LG and get their take on the issue, but I've been very busy lately.

Is there any actual scanning issue though or is the full image being shown but in <4:3 ratio? Judging from the T4 picture's lifebar position to the side of the picture, I'm assuming it's the latter case.

I don't understand the question.