I need convincing to use a stick...

[Thjodbjorn]

I haven't been playing shmups very long with any sort of passion, and I have been using a pad the entire time. But it seems that the general agreement is that a stick is preferred.

I use a stick for fighting games, and I understand their superiority for that genre. But so far for me (I've tried a stick once or twice), a pad feels more natural.

I also believe that a case can probably be made that would compell me to try using a stick more until I became more used to it. If anyone has the time, I'd appreciate reading a few arguments as to why they are superior for shmups.

Also, perhaps the stick itself makes a difference (I know it does in fighters). I use a sanwa JLF in all of the sticks I have. I think I've read that Seimitsu seems to be the preferred stick here? Why is this?

so while not a complete noob when it comes to input methods, I'm apparently noobish enough to still prefer a pad.

Edit: I think I meant to post this in off topic, or hardware. Unsure as to where it really should be...

[Ghegs]

I'm apparently noobish enough to still prefer a pad.

Nothing newbish about it at all. There are some top players on this very forum who use a pad. Some other top players use a stick and some even a keyboard. It's total madness!

No, what really matters is that you're comfortable with your input device of choice. Everything else is about practicing the game(s).

(Also moved to Off Topic)

[njiska]

I'll say this, my shmup scores improved dramatically when moving to a stick. Near as I can tell there are two reasons for this. First the stick is very precise and made moving minute distances a lot easier than with a pad that sort of jumped. Second, the ability to have your finger on multiple buttons at once greatly reduces the time it takes to react when a split second bomb or weapons switch is needed. Never have to let off shot unless I want to.

But Ghegs is right, it should be what you're most comfortable with. If you can do fighting games with the stick then the transition to shmupping with a stick should be easy. Ultimately just a matter of comfort and preference at that point.

[Acid King]

It comes down to preference. Obviously if you want to play well in an arcade you'll have to get used to using a stick, but at home it's whatever you're most comfortable and accurate with.

[Aliquantic]

I was a bit like you at first and still feeling awkward on a stick compared to keyboard after several weeks (I can't use a pad competently, though)... what worked for me was spending a few days experimenting with different ways of handling that stick for precision as my immediate, "obvious" approach just wasn't very effective.

You are competent at fighting games, though, so you should be already proficient, but a different grip might be better for you on STGs. Or maybe you're the next Prometheus

[drunkninja24]

Seimitsu sticks are generally preferred for shmups since they typically have tighter movement and don't feel quite as "mushy" as Sanwas for making small, precise movements. I use sticks for both fighters and shmups, and while I prefer Sanwas in fighters, Seimitsus are my choice for shmups (I have a Madcatz TE stick modded with a LS-32 for this reason).

Anyways, in general, I prefer using a stick because for me, it's much easier to do things like tap a direction if I have to make small movements (which is quite often in Cave games). And of course, it feels much better to me to coordinate my ring and index fingers for rapid fire/laser than my index and thumb on a controller, plus bomb is a quick tap away.

[Square King]

Before I started playing shmups a bit more seriously, I was keyboard-only for mame and doujin stuff. I decided to build a USB stick with Seimitsu parts and my scores and survival rate improved almost instantly across the board. Granted, I'm still awful, but that little jolt was an incentive to keep playing/practicing.

During my research for parts, Seimitsu always came out ahead for shooters and Sanwa for fighters. Comes down to the gate shape, sensitivity (apparently Seims are better for precise movements) and stock handle type, but ultimately it's personal preference. I didn't try a Sanwa, but I'm glad I went with the LS-32. It's worth a try if you're looking to change it up, but you might be more comfy with a pad -- and there's nothing wrong with that.

[KBZ]

Depending on how you hold the stick, I find left to right motions to be much faster on a stick than a dpad. So I prefer pretty much any japanese arcade stick over even a saturn dpad for yoko and tate shmups.

However up and down motions are not so fluid for me on a stick, so for hori shmups I absolutely need a dpad. Playing thunderforce III or Xexex with a stick just doesn't work for me.

[Drum]

Throw your pad in the trash and start using keyboard. It is best and the only people who disagree are people reading this with their heads tilted sideways because they do everything in tate.

[EPS21]

Just play with a stick so you know what the fuck you're doing in an arcade, should you ever venture to one with STG's.

[KindGrind]

People praise the LS-32 a lot, but others play competently with a JLF. As Ghegs mentioned, some great players around here use pads/keyboards, for example MMM on Ketsui and Prometheus on DDP. Matter of taste, but expect your scores to go down a bit in the stick learning phase, then up.

[neorichieb1971]

I can only play better using a stick when playing on a cabinet or proper bench. The idea of a big stick on your lap is not reassuring to me at all. I have tried it, but never liked it. It just feels ghetto and uncomfortable and the stick wobbles around all over the place.

[cools]

I need convincing I should spend my time convincing you.

Cash works.

[Elixir]

A tool is only as good as the person using it.

[Lordstar]

Just force yourself to use the stick. Everyones right though a great pad is as good as a great stick in the right hands.

[neorichieb1971]

The stick is to the shmup what a steering wheel is to the car.

Thats how I would sum it up in one nice tidy statement.

But a loose stick on your lap is like one of those Wii steering wheels. The interface is still the right shape, but it loses something along the way.

Will a stick improve your shmup skills? Thats not necessarily true, its what you feel comfortable with. But using my analogy above not many formula one drivers would drive so fast with a dualshock 3. I prefer a stick for simple games like Mr Driller.

What I would say is that I couldn't play something like RSG on a stick, too many damn buttons. I can push for a 4 button game on a stick, but prefer 3.

[Thjodbjorn]

I need convincing I should spend my time convincing you.

Cash works.

Unfortunately as a newer shmup enthusiast, I don't have much in the way of extra funds.

I think I'll just force myself to for a while with one of my JLF sticks and see if that clicks for me again. Worst case scenario, I "waste" some time and confirm my initial preference for pads.

But the 360 pad isn't very good to begin with.

But a loose stick on your lap is like one of those Wii steering wheels. The interface is still the right shape, but it loses something along the way.

Will a stick improve your shmup skills? Thats not necessarily true, its what you feel comfortable with. But using my analogy above not many formula one drivers would drive so fast with a dualshock 3. I prefer a stick for simple games like Mr Driller.

What I would say is that I couldn't play something like RSG on a stick, too many damn buttons. I can push for a 4 button game on a stick, but prefer 3.

Espgaluda 2 comes awfully close to having too many buttons for me, let alone RSG. Anything more than 3, and I imagine it would get kind of obnoxious.

And that's a good point on the lap thing. At least for me, it never hurt me with fighting games (although I could be argued to not be that great with them, but on the low side of good, or high side of average). I have a friend that goes through the trouble of using vice grips to attach his behemoth he built to a coffee table. It's definitely nice, but there seems to be a balance between authenticity, laziness, and cost that we all have to kind of figure out what we're willing to compromise on.

I do heavily support authenticity, but my laziness and cheapness will get in the way of me buying and setting up a cab, though that certainly is tempting.

I've also been trying to decide on scanline use. I haven't been using them, though I have been "arguing" with myself on the subject. The argument I see in favor of scanlines is that the graphics were probably designed with the limitations of SD CRTs in mind, and that one's brain does a better job of filling in the missing info between the lines than most of the line doublers do.

[cools]

Agree the 360 dpad sucks. No problem with a stick on my lap.

Swap the JLF in one of your sticks for an LS32. Play for a few days to break it in (~8 hours play gets them "just right" for me).

Just realised I've been using joysticks for ~25 years.

[captpain]

If you have a stick sitting around unused and you're playing with a 360 d-pad, you've got some real soul searching to do. What's with the masochism?

[Acid King]

If you have a stick sitting around unused and you're playing with a 360 d-pad, you've got some real soul searching to do. What's with the masochism?

Ridiculously true. The 360 pad is garbage.

[Shelcoof]

It's all about preference. Personally I enjoy using stick just because it feels more arcade authentic
Much more fun this way.

[xris]

Stick to what you know and like. I really don't like using a stick, and actually prefer using the analog on a controller, it's what I am used to. Sure I wish it would be a little tighter on some games, but it seems like it comes down to how the company codes it. Some games I can micrododge just fine with it, some I need to use larger movements. One thing I really do prefer about using a pad is that I can remap the buttons as needed. I really like having the bomb button on two places, typically the B button (360, O on psx) AND on the right trigger. You would be surprised how much faster you can activate the bomb button when all you have to do is pull, eliminates all of the time it takes to reach for a different button.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Second, the ability to have your finger on multiple buttons at once greatly reduces the time it takes to react when a split second bomb or weapons switch is needed.

With a tiny PlayStation pad in my fairly big hands I can have my fingers and my right hand thumb on 4 different buttons at once, no less. Particulary useful in platformers utilising many buttons, such as Super Metroid and Contra: Shattered Soldier.
I could use a stick for a handful of PSX ports that do not allow me to map stuff onto each and every button I would like to, adimttedly. Having to mash one of the face buttons constantly can fuck off right away, when R2 is so much more up to the job in my book.
P.S. Make it five different buttons at once in the likes of DMC3.

[Demetori]

I use a Playstation 3 controller, always have, and for all my games. One of the few people who use it professionally in the Street Fighter games. I crab handle the buttons so there is always three fingers on a button and one for quick switching between triangle and circle if the game requires the fourth button. I don't use the short cut buttons in Street Fighter as it breaks my rhythm.

I have also recently just started to play shmups seriously, and since most of them only require 3 buttons my setup for fighting games has transferred well and there was no real problem from the beginning as to the movement of the ship or anything in that area.
The only problems I have at the moment is that I'm still learning to score properly and learn the patterns/bosses.

If you're doing really well with a pad, keep at it. And there's no harm in trying to use a stick for awhile as well and see how much of a difference it makes for you.

[drauch]

I'd say strictly precise movements. Any time I play on a pad I almost always die because I couldn't move the way I wanted. Definitely has helped step up my (mediocre) game.

[Thjodbjorn]

I think I will have to try a seimitsu stick. The JLF feels like I have to move it too far to get a response.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

You'll be quite pleased with trying out an Seimitsu joystick -- although it's just a matter of personal tastes when it comes to besting your personal best shmup scores with either Sanwa or Seimitsu parts, Thjodbjorn.

Get access to both and make your decision. There are some folks whom don't like either said Japanese arcade controls and are more comfortable with using such alternative arcade parts like Happ, Suzo or Wico ones instead (due to larger and bigger hands compared to the smaller Japanese/Asian hand sizes). Whatever floats your boat.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Thjodbjorn]

I used to use a happ stick, and I do prefer the Sanwa for fighters at least. I just ordered an LS-32-01, and I'll swap that out in one of my sticks and see how that goes. I went with a round restrictor gate, as opposed to the octagonal I typically use.

Edit: I took delivery of my stick this afternoon! So I get to install it this evening. It definitely seems to have a shorter distance to travel to hit a switch, which should do me just fine.