Why do you suppose people can't make great shmups anymore?

[BPzeBanshee]

Personally, I think the idea of making modern good shmups is based heavily on what your preference of a modern good shmup is, which in turn is dependant on what you're exposed to first. Even then, in the end it's all a mixture of personal taste, accessibility, game quality, and majority opinions.
- There'll never be as much money in shmups industry now because of the more popular genres (small audience to begin with)
- There'll never be as much sales in particular areas of the world where they won't/cant try to distribute properly (thus shrinking the audience)
- There'll never be as much sales for games that are just crap period (giving the genre a bad name and shrinking the audience further)
- And there'll never be as much sales now that the market has changed towards console gaming (versus arcade machines at a store) where it's all more tiered towards genres like FPS games and RPGs (diverting the audience to a genre where companies get said genre conventions right more often than not)
This, from a guy that's open-minded to games from various subgenres and difficulties now that he came out of the Land of Ignorance and actually saw everything that's out there. Make a game that reaches for someone in said Land of Ignorance AND gets him interested, and you're onto a good and popular seller. If you can make it have a good scoring and deep gameplay too, that's a plus.

[evil_ash_xero]

I don't like any Raiden games.

All future opinions void.

+1

Oh snap.

Well, I did like Raiden Project, back in the day. I don't really care much for it now though. It's just too meat and potatoes for me.

[Taylor]

- There'll never be as much money in shmups industry now because of the more popular genres (small audience to begin with)
- There'll never be as much sales in particular areas of the world where they won't/cant try to distribute properly (thus shrinking the audience)
- There'll never be as much sales for games that are just crap period (giving the genre a bad name and shrinking the audience further)
- And there'll never be as much sales now that the market has changed towards console gaming (versus arcade machines at a store) where it's all more tiered towards genres like FPS games and RPGs (diverting the audience to a genre where companies get said genre conventions right more often than not)

I think it depends how you play your cards. You're not going to be given a mainstream budget or expect mainstream sales, but shmups are much cheaper to produce and can be done with a small team.

There is a sales theory called 10,000 true fans, it goes that if you have that many fans and they all spend $10 on your product a year... that's a very respectable $100,000. Shmups may be even more niche than that unless they strike it lucky but a niche game can charge a niche price. You can also release a 'limited' collectors editions with soundtrack CDs and some glossy paper. Or maybe even do what the Trouble Witches guys did and produce some arcade boards: 50 at $1,000 each? $50,000. Well, and production costs. But with 1-3 people your quids in.

Or you can crank out another dual-stick particle effect game in a week and put it on Steam or XBLIG. Any money it makes is profit.

[Square King]

I'm going to generate an email that, when opened, automatically installs Steam on the user's computer. I'm going to send it to every Japanese email address I can find, starting with the Cave office.

No, I'm not really going to do that. But seriously. Would.

[BPzeBanshee]

I think it depends how you play your cards. You're not going to be given a mainstream budget or expect mainstream sales, but shmups are much cheaper to produce and can be done with a small team.

There is a sales theory called 10,000 true fans, it goes that if you have that many fans and they all spend $10 on your product a year... that's a very respectable $100,000. Shmups may be even more niche than that unless they strike it lucky but a niche game can charge a niche price. You can also release a 'limited' collectors editions with soundtrack CDs and some glossy paper. Or maybe even do what the Trouble Witches guys did and produce some arcade boards: 50 at $1,000 each? $50,000. Well, and production costs. But with 1-3 people your quids in.

Or you can crank out another dual-stick particle effect game in a week and put it on Steam or XBLIG. Any money it makes is profit.

Good point you have there. I noticed that collector's editions do seem to get companies more profit for any genre on any system in general, and then popularity comes into play (Halo:Reach for $130 bucks? Oh gee its by Bungie and so hi-def, must be worth it ).
Never heard of the 10,000 true fans theory but it certainly makes sense.

In the end those four statements I said are pretty much what I think are the four variables to keep in mind with shmup development - target audience, distribution, minority genre and consistent quality. This is why I believe 'people can't make great shmups anymore' on a commercial level.

For example, all over my town there are arcade machines from all parts of the Raiden series. The entire Raiden Fighters series plus Raiden II is all over the town. These games have consistently well-made graphics and immersive gameplay, its approachable for a rather large audience despite being a shmup, and its in my home town as well as in Japan and USA. Where I live, people that dont even know that a shmup is even a genre of shooter have all heard of Raiden via its cool jet fighters and big purple laser that homes in to everything. So it kinda has a surprising underdog reputation here.

Now let's look at Cave. They're popular enough......providing you're in the know. In this day and age they seem to have almost no form of distribution (and region-locking doesn't help) so a person like me will have never heard of or seen a Cave game because they don't distribute here unless I got into an online community base and imported the game. And now that we have channels like Steam and various forms of promotions this method is outdated against retail. The graphics are consistently good but is it really capturing the full extent of the audience it could get? Is it going same-o or not? In the end that's a matter of taste, and within the minority genre where there's already less to be gained they seem to be targeting a Japan-only audience (no way a loli manga chick on a broomstick with pink bullets going everywhere is going to appeal to a large Western audience, there's too many negative connotations in society for that) and further narrowing the amount of potential buyers.

Im not sure if I explained that quite right, but long story short most developers aren't adapting enough to the modern market and keeping those four variables in mind.

[defected78]

why dont people make good beat em ups.
or arcade racers (sega, etc)
or platformers (konami)

because the industry has changed for the worst, just take a look at kinnect. MS will destroy its own console.

I feel im living in the last worthwhile generation of gaming and it doesnt compare to PS2 or dreamcast, saturn.

Im going to totally skip this motion controlling one as high level play isnt possible with it and I prefer controllers, joysticks. I dont want to jump around in the living room like an idiot.

[Jockel]

because the industry has changed for the worst, just take a look at kinnect. MS will destroy its own console.

You're absolutely right, one entirely optional piece of additional hardware aimed at casual gamers will instantly make every single traditional game dissappear.
From what i've heard the next dashboard update will block out every shooter, and the release of Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu got cancelled.
Shit, what am i going to do with my collection of now worthless 360-shmups?

It happened with the eye-toy on PS2, too.
It was so annoying that i had to wave around like a retarded monkey just to play Dai Ou Jou.

[THE]

Never heard of the 10,000 true fans theory but it certainly makes sense.

10,000 true fans of what? Shmups? I don't think so, Cave, oh yes!

[evil_ash_xero]

why dont people make good beat em ups.
or arcade racers (sega, etc)
or platformers (konami)

because the industry has changed for the worst, just take a look at kinnect. MS will destroy its own console.

I feel im living in the last worthwhile generation of gaming and it doesnt compare to PS2 or dreamcast, saturn.

Im going to totally skip this motion controlling one as high level play isnt possible with it and I prefer controllers, joysticks. I dont want to jump around in the living room like an idiot.

I think beat 'em ups kind of morphed into stuff like Bayonetta and whatnot. Platformers...people seem to have a hard time with those. I'm always surprised at the poor level design a lot of the newer ones have . But there are exceptions.

[ZacharyB]

There is a sales theory called 10,000 true fans, it goes that if you have that many fans and they all spend $10 on your product a year... that's a very respectable $100,000.

That doesn't sound so good. If you have a 5-person team, that's only $20,000 a year per person. That's below the povery line for a family of four. Looks like shmups also have the power to keep you single in more ways than one.

Thanks for answering my question from before, by the way.

[Ed Oscuro]

because the industry has changed for the worst, just take a look at kinnect. MS will destroy its own console.

You're absolutely right, one entirely optional piece of additional hardware aimed at casual gamers will instantly make every single traditional game dissappear.
From what i've heard the next dashboard update will block out every shooter, and the release of Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu got cancelled.
Shit, what am i going to do with my collection of now worthless 360-shmups?

It happened with the eye-toy on PS2, too.
It was so annoying that i had to wave around like a retarded monkey just to play Dai Ou Jou.

Kinect is absolutely insidious, it actually mods the console to a region code for a nation where shooters are banned and you can only play dancing sims.

[THE]

That doesn't sound so good. If you have a 5-person team, that's only $20,000 a year per person. That's below the povery line for a family of four. Looks like shmups also have the power to keep you single in more ways than one.

Yeah, women aren't exactly enthusiastic when I tell them that I'm a game developer for the living, I guess in the future I will tell them, that I'm a pimp, I think that's more serious for them...

[Taylor]

The point wasn't to give concrete examples. It was to show how you don't need to make millions if your game isn't costing millions. I even clarified the numbers aren't realistic for a shmup in the next sentence.

[esreveR]

>Implying people can't make great shmups anymore

/thread

[stryc9]

Come on guys. Look at what we've been spoilt with the past 8 years. Sure this isn't another Golden Era?

[Lance Boyle]

People can't make great shmups anymore because people don't buy great shmups anymore.

[mangadrive]

I don't really like people using the FPS abundance argument as plausible much anymore. A few years ago I would have agreed, but now I just can't. You either like FPS or you don't, but simply because you do, does NOT mean you want to play every single FPS. They might be there in quantity but quality is something entirely different. They might have released a Call of Duty every year for the past few but theres only ONE call of duty just like there is only ONE Halo and each of these titles have been the poster child for game recycling. Also COD v/s Halo.. which is better? Its a troll level question. Don't answer it please it was rhetorical. Tastes vary..so saying theres all these awesome FPS for FPS players to play...not true. Its like saying Touhou appeals to everyone that loves DDP.

This same argument applies to RPG, because lets face it.. Stuff like the new FF13? Its not appealing to every single RPG either. JRPGs are actually getting RARER. Their shelf life is in just as much danger as shmups are. Just like arcade games had their commercial window, JRPGs have and its closing. Fast.

One the subject of shmups. I don't know. I've found some amazing games to play in the recent years. Sin and Punishment 2 taking the place of best rail shooter ever in my collection is a substantial achievement considering games like Starfox 64 and Panzer Dragoon have had that place FOREVER now. Most game franchises only give you one game every year or two. If you got a new shooter every 12 months you should essentially be happy. You can't expect quality and quantity into today's gaming industry period. Nostalgia will carry you so far in retrospect, but in reality if a shmups player can't find something to enjoy out of 100's of titles, then its just not the genre for you in the first place.

[RNGmaster]

I would sage this thread into oblivion if I could. It started out shit, and somehow got worse. I didn't even know it was possible to out-crap the "niche genre" thread, but apparently it's been done.

[NzzpNzzp]

I would sage this thread into oblivion if I could.

What does this even mean?

[BPzeBanshee]

I would sage this thread into oblivion if I could. It started out shit, and somehow got worse. I didn't even know it was possible to out-crap the "niche genre" thread, but apparently it's been done.

When you get comments like "10,000 true fans of what? Shmups? I don't think so, Cave, oh yes!" that piss on the geniune logical posts here in mass numbers, it's not surprising at all.

[THE]

When you get comments like "10,000 true fans of what? Shmups? I don't think so, Cave, oh yes!" that piss on the geniune logical posts here in mass numbers, it's not surprising at all.

Hahaha, that was me.
From my perspective as a developer, 10,000 true fans would imply for me: 10,000 sold units of Fast Striker DC
But we can only dream from of those numbers and yes according to all people that played Fast Striker the quality is there to reach those numbers. Please don't start an argument now but it's on DC...well owning a DC is requirement for a true Shmup fan

So 10,000 true fans where art thou?

[Obiwanshinobi]

Maybe you should port your shmup to the Capcom Power Charger System. Maybe that's where TRUE fans get their shit. Do some market research.

[THE]

Maybe you should port your shmup to the Capcom Power Charger System. Maybe that's where TRUE fans get their shit. Do some market research.

Nah, never liked Capcom hardware much

But your point is valid, unfortunately it's not easy to publish a Shmup on current gen if you are not Japanese. But we are working on becoming Japanese

[BPzeBanshee]

When you get comments like "10,000 true fans of what? Shmups? I don't think so, Cave, oh yes!" that piss on the geniune logical posts here in mass numbers, it's not surprising at all.

Hahaha, that was me.
From my perspective as a developer, 10,000 true fans would imply for me: 10,000 sold units of Fast Striker DC
But we can only dream from of those numbers and yes according to all people that played Fast Striker the quality is there to reach those numbers. Please don't start an argument now but it's on DC...well owning a DC is requirement for a true Shmup fan

So 10,000 true fans where art thou?

The statement I quoted from you, if read right, implied that Cave had more 'true fans' than all of Shmups, which is impossible. I was merely using it as an example of how some people tend to bring an otherwise good thread down.
Indeed 10,000 guaranteed customers in theory assures 10,000 guaranteed sales, and I don't doubt that Fast Striker has sufficient quality to reach said numbers (I can't opinionate it of course since I haven't played said game), so it would seem that you already have some of the factors I mentioned earlier that if kept in mind pretty much assures commercial success.

[Danza]

I would sage this thread into oblivion if I could.

What does this even mean?

Sage is a function used on imageboard like 4chan. Basically if you put sage in the email field, your post won't bump the thread. People misuse it by trying to insult the thread starter by sage bombing their thread. The thing is, one normal post will bump the thread anyway so it is kind of pointless. It is really meant to be used if you don't feel the content of your post is worth bumping the thread.

It is actually a good function though. For example, the DDP DOJ BLEX thread on here. People wig out a little when it gets bumped expecting news on the patch. If you used sage you could contribute a post to the thread but it wouldn't bump it and flag the thread as having new posts.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

For about 10 seconds I thought that sage is a pritty nifty thing, But then I thought what's the point in posting on a forum if other ppl cant read it? Are ppl really that sad?

[mjclark]

I would sage this thread into oblivion if I could.

What does this even mean?

...if you put sage in the email field, your post won't bump the thread.

Just to derail this a bit more then, is there something similar that does the opposite so that if I edit my post it bumps the thread. Ha ha- it would be astonishingly confusing and irritating for the thread to show up as bumped when someone edits an old post but very useful to draw attention to a significant edit (like a score update for instance). Maybe it's called "egas"...or something.
Meanwhile back OT, only time will tell if a shmup is great or not: great shmups may very well be being made and released right now but we'll only know with five years hindsight. And what about Crimzon Clover? It's already talked about on these forums with reverence and awe

[TrevHead (TVR)]

is there something similar that does the opposite so that if I edit my post it bumps the thread. Ha ha- it would be astonishingly confusing and irritating for the thread to show up as bumped when someone edits an old post but very useful to draw attention to a significant edit (like a score update for instance). Maybe it's called "egas"...or something.

There might be such a function out there but really all a poster needs to to is make the edit and make a new post just to bump it.

And what about Crimzon Clover? It's already talked about on these forums with reverence and awe

Although I like CC as it feels more like an arcade shmup then a doujin which is quite rare. Sure there are quite allot of doujin shmups made which tick all the boxes of good basic shmup design, most still dont have that extra bit of magic to really make them great.

CC is very promising I just hope the final game lives up to what everyone hopes itll be.

[Taylor]

When you get comments like "10,000 true fans of what? Shmups? I don't think so, Cave, oh yes!" that piss on the geniune logical posts here in mass numbers, it's not surprising at all.

Hahaha, that was me.
From my perspective as a developer, 10,000 true fans would imply for me: 10,000 sold units of Fast Striker DC
But we can only dream from of those numbers and yes according to all people that played Fast Striker the quality is there to reach those numbers. Please don't start an argument now but it's on DC...well owning a DC is requirement for a true Shmup fan

So 10,000 true fans where art thou?

As mentioned in the following sentence when I brought it up and the later post that explained this with complete clarity, this was just the name of the theory. It was not a pair of magical numbers that could be applied to any product regardless of expected audience or production expenses to guarantee your financial success.

In fact, I didn’t even get the title right; it’s actually 1,000 true fans and $100. But wait, before you get all analytical on those figures, remember that these are not supposed to be concrete examples for a 2010 Dreamcast shmup.

[THE]

As mentioned in the following sentence when I brought it up and the later post that explained this with complete clarity, this was just the name of the theory. It was not a pair of magical numbers that could be applied to any product regardless of expected audience or production expenses to guarantee your financial success.

In fact, I didn’t even get the title right; it’s actually 1,000 true fans and $100. But wait, before you get all analytical on those figures, remember that these are not supposed to be concrete examples for a 2010 Dreamcast shmup.

Taylor, you are taking this to serious. I'm not making fun out of you here.