Do shmups age better than other game types?

[FatCobra]

It's been a while since I've posted on these forums. I was once known as Kris Typher, but for some reason I couldn't access my old account, so I made a new one.

Anyway, I was playing R-Type Delta on my shiny new PSTwo (my name for the slim model) with enhanced graphics and loading time. I thought, "damn this game is still pretty sweet and the PSTwo made it better!" I know most 8-bit and 16-bit (and possibly GBA) games tend to age well due to the 2-Dness maybe. Gradius V on the PSTwo kicks ass and I'm really sad that this genre isn't popular anymore. But shmups tend to stand the test of time pretty well, I'd gladly pop a few quarters into the Raiden II machine at the local bowling alley while some foos are playing some dumb anime racing game (or play it at home instead of GTA:SA).

Seriously, the game industry is messed up. Planned obsoletance seems to the new thing here. No-one values older games as classics anymore. (Sports games are notorious for this, also who wants to play the old 2-D GTA games when there's the 3-D ones). All of a sudden, Halo 2 is out now and no-one plays Halo anymore (not that I did anyway, just an example).

To tell you the truth, I am not really excited about the next-gen consoles. The only one I'm remotely interested in is the Nintendo Revolution, but even then Nintendo isn't what they used to be. It's just a part of getting old.

One thing for sure, even though I am playing GTA:SA right now; I know that once I suck all the fun out of it (getting 100% in that game requires you to be pretty anal at times), I know I'll be back to playing Gradius 5 and my collection of PS1 shmups (which, out of all PS1/N64 era games, aged pretty well).

I actually want to buy a refrubished NES at the flea market (I know a guy) and start doing some old school collecting.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

Hey hey,HEY...watch it now. I like those anime racing games...

I think the only games really showing their age would have to be those 3D poloygon ones released at the Playstation launch. The first Gran Turismo was great, but now it looks, and practically plays like shit by today's standards.

I'm a firm believer though, that the old NES, and games like Contra II,Castelvania III,RC Pro-Am II etc, will never die from "old age".

[dboeren]

Shmups definately age very well. I'm a PCB collector (need to get into consoles at some point) and last weekend my wife was out of town and I had a blast playing some of my old boards. Sky Shark, Raiden, 1943, R-Type II, that's old school!

Yeah, I also played Dragon Blaze, Esprade, and other newer stuff too, but the old games are just as much fun.

[FatCobra]

Hey hey,HEY...watch it now. I like those anime racing games...

I was joking about that, I have a card for the Inital D Stage 3 machine they have at the bowling alley where I live.

I'm a firm believer though, that the old NES, and games like Contra II,Castelvania III,RC Pro-Am II etc, will never die from "old age".

Right on! I'd play Super Mario Bros 3 over Super Mario Sunshine anyday.

[Stormwatch]

I guess, for each style, there is a threshold for aging well.

For example, when it comes to 2D... most/all NES games look old, even those that were nice back in the day. But all Genesis games that looked good back then still look pretty good now.

And when it comes to 3D... most/all Playstation games look old, even those that were nice back in the day. But all N64 games that looked good back then still look pretty good now.

It is a matter of reaching the "good enough" point.

[Davey]

No-one values older games as classics anymore.

I think the millions of copies of Namco Museum sold by Best Buy would beg to differ.

[the2bears]

I'll reply from the pov of a indie-shmup developer wannabe:

2D game-play is considered retro - and once you're there you cannot go "out of style". That to me is the beauty of the genre. The technology is for the most part fixed now and all innovation must stem from gameplay.

Bill

[Dylan1CC]

Of course 2D games in general age much better than most 3D games. Look at the graphics of Yoshi's Island, they're still just as great to look at as they were way back in '95. I think Yoshi's Island and Storm of Progear are like art in motion and smoke the visuals of most modern games. I also agree Delta's visuals are great. One of the best uses of 3D visuals with 2D gameplay ever, the enemies and environments are very crisp and well detailed.

Although 3D games like Mario 64, the Saturn Panzer series for a few random examples still hold up very well. And I think Metroid Prime's visuals will still hold up well years down the line, if not for its gameplay also obviously which I still can't get over how well it holds up in authenticity to the original.

[malc]

stuff using 2d art does not seem to age for me. The fact is, 2d is dependent on ability, and creativeness - whereas 3d is still dependent on textures and technical quality. So for me, the one that works in the context of time is 2d, every time. Long live yoshi's island malc

[whoisKeel]

A few thoughts, I think 'glitchy-ness' for lack of better word plays a big role. Nes games that feature lots of flicker and slowdown don't hold up nearly as well as the games that don't. Same goes for psx/saturn with pop up, poor camera, and clipping. Also, when designers try to make graphics realistic, they will always end up looking dated. Zelda WW (whether you care for the graphics or not) will probably hold up better than any other current gen title out there. Not too many shooters go for that realistic look

I have to say tho, I enjoy older games much more. I don't care for 10 minute movies that can't be skipped, 45 minutes of tutorials before you get to play, etc. and I'm not too fond of this open ended gameplay (gta, and everything afterwards) where I have to run around for 20 minutes before I even get to where I need to be (I only PLAY a game for 20-40 minutes most of the times).

Long live 2D (on a side note, there's alot of 3D games that I do enjoy)

[neorichieb1971]

Simplicity is genious. Shmups, like Tetris and puzzle bobble are a kind of game that are accessible and don't need 3D graphics to work well.

Although the latest shmups are totally off the wall for newcomers. I do like the art direction in 2D games better.

The nextgen consoles will be more of the same, most games run close to 60fps already, so the only thing left is graphics.. and soon enough it will become so close to reality that it will lose its appeal and character. One of the best things about videogames in the past is watching someone use limited tools to make something believable. If the hardware performs this feat all by itself, all your left with usually is heartless.

[Dylan1CC]

Another 3D game that I forgot to add which will still look amazing years down the road is Jet Grind Radio. But again, that's because it mimics 2D art. Played it before coming to work, darn shame Smilebit's various work didn't get the sales they deserved along with the praise.

[Thunder Force]

Since I've been playing Galaga for over 20 years now, I can safely say...

Shmups don't age.

Something to consider: your shmup collection will outlive you.

[OptimusPrimeX]

Another 3D game that I forgot to add which will still look amazing years down the road is Jet Grind Radio. But again, that's because it mimics 2D art. Played it before coming to work, darn shame Smilebit's various work didn't get the sales they deserved along with the praise.

I would tend to agree with that. Smilebit makes some awesome games. To add to that, even though i never liked 3d as much ... some of the Saturn game are still fun to play.. like Burning Rangers and Shining Force III I still play current consoles, but tend to shy away from the crap pop culture games that are blockbluster hits, sold to the masses and casual gamers.

2d as a videogame artform will always be loved more than passing technology such as 3d which changes drasticly each generation, almost completely pushing aside old poligonal games like PS1, which were at one time dependant on great technology and graphics.. for the WOW eye candy factor.

RPG"s..... I would say second to SHMUPS as the most followed old genra IMO, is definitely RPG's. I'm not sure if allot of you around here play RPG's, but for the collectors and hardcore RPG fans, the genra never really fades. Allot of nostalgia is involved, as well as love for characters and story, which keep people buying them up on Ebay, and driving up prices just like SHMUPS....RPG's just like SHMUPS are one of the last somewhat strong following of good 2d hand drawn art. Take Shining Tears for example (SEGA) which is a completely 2d overhead game, with hand drawn characters and backgrounds, which i think is being released this month in the States.

[Andi]

It's hard to say whether 2D games age better than 3D games really. 3D games just haven't been around long enough to age as long as 2D games.

However, I suspect that they will age in much the same way. Some 2D games are still great and playable today, some of today's 3D games will be great and playable 10 year from now.

There was a reference passed around of Halo 1 being forgotten now that Halo 2 is out. This isn't limited to the sequels of 3D games, many 2D games (and even shooters) suffer the same fate. I'd rather play Twin Cobra over Tiger-Heli and Twinbee Yahho! over Detana Twinbee.

[system11]

Depends on the quality of the original to some extent.

Take a look at DOA2 on the PS2 - that was a launch title, it still looks absolutely stunning.

[Dylan1CC]

Long live yoshi's island malc

Indeed. *Raises a beer in toast of 2D sprites*

Or in Yoshi's case *Raises a glass of frosty milk and a s'mores*

[Cugel]

Shmups age well. I still play TIME PILOT, GALAGA, GALAXIAN, and JUNO FIRST. I played these games as a kid and still enjoy them immensely.

Lately, I've been getting a kick out of playing old shooters such as FIRE SHARK, MUSHA, and THUNDEFORCE III on my Genesis. MAME still doesn't have sound emulation for FIRE SHARK and some other Toaplan games.

As for 3D games, yes, the older games look crude, but I still like VIRTUA RACING for the Sega 32x. It has great gameplay and is arguably better than its Saturn counterpart. I'm looking forward to SEGA CLASSICS for the PS2 which will contain an arcade perfect copy of VIRTUA RACING.

[BrianC]

I still love playing Shmups, but it's hard for me to tell if they aged better than other game times since I still play stuff like Mappy, Pac-Man, Ms. Pac-Man, Pole Position, Breakout, Super Breakout, and many other classic games too. For me stuff like Scramble, Time Pilot, Mappy, Twinbee, Gyruss, Pac-Man, Xevious, Dig Dug, Berzerk, and many other classic style games never get old.

[GaijinPunch]

I think they age well, but I'm the one that just played a round of Rastan before work. I personally think any well-done 2D game will age well... especially people that like 2D games, and also especially since so few 2D games are being made.

But to be honest, I tried Star Soldier & Twinbee on my GBA, and it just didn't stick. 16-bit and up I'm very open to, but the 8-bit shooters do very little for me now.

Twitch -- didn't know you were in Texas. What part? Dallas-native, school in Austin.

[The n00b]

Seriously, the game industry is messed up. Planned obsoletance seems to the new thing here. No-one values older games as classics anymore. (Sports games are notorious for this, also who wants to play the old 2-D GTA games when there's the 3-D ones). All of a sudden, Halo 2 is out now and no-one plays Halo anymore (not that I did anyway, just an example). .

Lot's of people still play Halo 1. Halo 2 plays like a completely different game because Bungie balanced all the weapons. Some people were actually pissed off by this so they kept playing Halo 1 through xlink and in lan parties.

[system11]

Seriously, the game industry is messed up. Planned obsoletance seems to the new thing here. No-one values older games as classics anymore. (Sports games are notorious for this, also who wants to play the old 2-D GTA games when there's the 3-D ones). All of a sudden, Halo 2 is out now and no-one plays Halo anymore (not that I did anyway, just an example). .

Lot's of people still play Halo 1. Halo 2 plays like a completely different game because Bungie balanced all the weapons. Some people were actually pissed off by this so they kept playing Halo 1 through xlink and in lan parties.

They BALANCED them!?

Halo 2 online is all about the sword. Get the sword, kill endlessly. It's one of the least balanced weapons I have ever seen in a game.

[BUHA]

I've been playing Pac-Man since as long as i can remember. Off and on, yes, but I still play it and i'm going to be 21 years old soon. And I'm still not sick of it.

I agree that some games age better than others. Play Xevious...didn't age so well (and the music will drive you crazy). But then play battletoads or even galaga and see how well they hold up still.

[uwfan]

the simple answer:

YES [definitly]

[neorichieb1971]

The reason why Galaga, pacman, Galaxians and such don't age is because the concept was maximised with the technology that was available in the day.

[DEL]

This belongs in the ST section, but I noticed Thunder Force, Cugel & neorichieb1971 have mentioned GALAGA.

For those of you who don't know (& I haven't got a clue how many), here's how to CLOCK the digits on GALAGA:-

Pick any stage (preferably ST1), kill every enemy except for one 'beam spreader'. Allow the beam spreader to twirl its way down the screen 255+ times. Kill it after the 255th time and nothing will shoot you in the game from then on.

You can then 999,990

[Thunder Force]

^ That Galaga "no shoot" glitch has always been considered an illegal cheat in competitions. It's not uncommon for old games to have severe glitches like that (e.g. 200+ lives cheat in Sinistar), or even completely crash if you play a certain way (Donkey Kong, etc).

[magnum opus]

Seriously, the game industry is messed up. Planned obsoletance seems to the new thing here. No-one values older games as classics anymore. (Sports games are notorious for this, also who wants to play the old 2-D GTA games when there's the 3-D ones). All of a sudden, Halo 2 is out now and no-one plays Halo anymore (not that I did anyway, just an example). .

Lot's of people still play Halo 1. Halo 2 plays like a completely different game because Bungie balanced all the weapons. Some people were actually pissed off by this so they kept playing Halo 1 through xlink and in lan parties.

They BALANCED them!?

Halo 2 online is all about the sword. Get the sword, kill endlessly. It's one of the least balanced weapons I have ever seen in a game.

man making the warthog destructable totally changes the dynamic.

[BiQ]

About best 2D graphics being more beautiful and better-designed than best 3D graphics I think it's partly an immersion thing: In some sense, all games (well, most of them at least) try to create their own world where the player wants to jump in. Making this world coherent and believable from it's own principles is actually easier with 2D graphics, since being a 2D automatically forces the player's subconcious/imagination/whatever to fill some of the gaps for the game. In contrast, a 3D game basically tries to create everything for the player, and forget trying to really tap into the power of player's own imagination, or fail doing this as well as good 2D games.

In other words, when playing a 3D game, player unconciously "expects" the game to actually replicate a reality to the same level as the real reality. This effectively means that player is more forgiving for the "faults" of 2D game reality than 3D game reality.

About how the 3D games are going to age, well, I guess there will be hard-core FPS fans when they go underground like the shmups are now. And there probably still is going to be people who make them even when they are "underground" genre. I could care less though, since I'm not a big fan of them, partly because I can't play them without getting a headache. Something about spatial disorientation and stuff...

...and do not go dissin' the NES' 8-bit graphic power!
"Crystalis and Recca". I rest my case.

[99pence]

The reason some games are so timeless is that they don't make that type of game anymore so nothing has superseded it. When was the last time anyone made a Rolling Thunder type game and even in that genre nothing can touch the original RT, that game is so slick and it's from 1986. Maybe if some one made a new one today which had everything and more that made the original so good, got rid of its flaws and had incredible 2D grafix I might not think the original would be so timeless. Then again the 2D Mario games compliment each other so I dunno.

Of course older grafix have a certain style to them like the film Tron's old school 3D grafix is what makes it look so good. More would certainly be less. Plus I just wanted to have an excuse to talk about Rolling Thunder.