Why do you suppose people can't make great shmups anymore?

[agustusx]

unfortunately video game sales today are driven more by marketing, hype and brands.

That has always been the case. Regardless one form of marketing is having the product available and visible for those who may be interested in purchasing it.

I think some folks on this forum forget that you didn't always have to be some die-hard fan to have exposure to quality shooters. The consensus seems to be that if you want to play a great shmup you need to play doujins, which is tragic. It's just accepted by most in this community that everyone is willing to:

• hunt around foreign sites and purchase from vendors you normally wouldn't
  know how to overcome a 4x3 game from stretching on your 16x9
  map game controls via an external program
  or still have a working dreamcast
  or use a supergun or have a cab

While the OP is asking why people can't make great shmups, an equally good question is why can't devs make them accessible to a larger audience. Are the digital distribution channels so draconian that indie devs are scared away from them. I've heard that Steam has some decent shmups these days but I can't say I've really logged in for years to check for myself.(I don't really use my home PC much)

But really I guess it all adds up. You can get a flood of "ok" shooters via the easy channels I mentioned in my earlier post, but if you want that extra special you have to jump over a few obstacles. Unfortunately for me I will probably never give Crimson Clover another chance due to all the technical difficulties I had with it(key mapping for example), and I will never play THEs games because I just not "hardcore" enough to have a compatible system.

Even if there are new Great shmups still be created, its easy to see why some may not notice this.

[Herr Schatten]

Man, that's 7 different companies making kick ass shmups.

Ten, actually. You completely disregarded Psikyo, Seibu, and Takumi.

[chempop]

unfortunately video game sales today are driven more by marketing, hype and brands.

That has always been the case. Regardless one form of marketing is having the product available and visible for those who may be interested in purchasing it.

I disagree to an extent that its always been this way. Back when I was a kid I'd go into the store and look at the boxes and see what interested me. After a while the clerk got to know me and would offer suggestions like "have you played Streets of Rage yet? or Here is a little gem that you might not consider (shows me Quackshot)". Now days its different, people watch the reviews, and preorder the blockbusters in advance.

Last time I bothered to go into a Gamestop was the week when Sin and Punishment 2 was released. There was this guy in there asking the Clerk if he knew any good rail shooters for the Wii- Clerk had this blank look and mentioned something about xbox and CoD, meanwhile Sin and Punishment was tucked away in the very corner of the rack and when I asked to see the box (because I couldn't find it) the Clerk who had just put it on display also couldn't find it... sad, but not entirely surprising either.

[THE]

While the OP is asking why people can't make great shmups, an equally good question is why can't devs make them accessible to a larger audience.

Good point. But all you need today is basically a Japanese x360 and you can access nearly all new commercially developed shmups. Owning a Japanese console is hardcore though from a casual perspective...Doujins are still a pain in the ass, with all this PC problems...

Are the digital distribution channels so draconian that indie devs are scared away from them. I've heard that Steam has some decent shmups these days but I can't say I've really logged in for years to check for myself.(I don't really use my home PC much)

Yes they are draconian, releasing a shmup on XBLA/PSN is quite difficult. If you ain't have a publisher it is basically impossible and even if you have one, the people that decide about your fate, consider shmups crap or in best case they just wonder what is this shit...
Steam should be doable without much problems for western devs though, but the Japanese doujin developers can't contact Valve due to the language barrier and probably they don't have any awareness for this anyway. Therefore I wouldn't have much hope in Steam either...

I will never play THEs games because I just not "hardcore" enough to have a compatible system.

A DC is 50 bucks or something and worth it for the shmups alone...

[Jockel]

I will never play THEs games because I just not "hardcore" enough to have a compatible system.

A DC is 50 bucks or something and worth it for the shmups alone...

This. It's baffling enough that he even has to say it.
One of the greatest consoles of all time, you can play games from every region and copied games without modding, and all that for a low, low price.

PS: Don't be an asshole and pirate games that are still sold.

[chempop]

Recently I got the 1st Edition of Last Hope and I love it, despite THE saying that it's "bad". The music and atmosphere are some of the best (level 4 is really brilliant with the water, plants, moon reflection, and insects flying around) So now I'm really pumped about Pink Bullets and Fast Striker. One quick question though: why has the NG-DEV site removed everything DUX related? I know it was limited and "had issues", did it just sell out or are you guys trying to forget about it? I guess I'll have to find a copy form a reseller if I want to play it (and I don't really care about the bugz which I hear are easy enough to ignore if I want to enjoy the game.

[RHE]

DUX is a HUCAST.net side project of mine there's still a web-site for it: http://dux.hucast.net/
Videogameimports and VideoGamesNewyork have some pcs. left. Tip: with a US console and/or VGA on any console variation the game doesn't suffer from the bug. I can PM you more detail.

Glad you like Last Hope btw, you're some of a few.

Alright, now let's keep it on-topic.

[THE]

Recently I got the 1st Edition of Last Hope and I love it, despite THE saying that it's "bad". The music and atmosphere are some of the best (level 4 is really brilliant with the water, plants, moon reflection, and insects flying around) So now I'm really pumped about Pink Bullets and Fast Striker. One quick question though: why has the NG-DEV site removed everything DUX related? I know it was limited and "had issues", did it just sell out or are you guys trying to forget about it? I guess I'll have to find a copy form a reseller if I want to play it (and I don't really care about the bugz which I hear are easy enough to ignore if I want to enjoy the game.

LOL, never said it's bad. For a memorizer it's a great game. Just wanted to point out, that we got better and better which each release.

Dux never was on our site, because it's not made by NG:DEV.TEAM! However it was designed by RHE and programmed by a contractor called KonTechs Ltd. AFAIK this scoring bug only affects PAL consoles and can be ignored.

[evil_ash_xero]

Man, that's 7 different companies making kick ass shmups.

Ten, actually. You completely disregarded Psikyo, Seibu, and Takumi.

Yeah, they're not faves of mine. But sure, they were there too. 10 it is.

Another thing about these doujins...they have no budget, so the graphics are usually substandard.

Yeah, graphics matter a bit.

[Domino]

I don't play the new shmups anymore because the loli/moe/anime style is a big turn off and I don't like the concept of bullet-hell games. All of my favorite shmups were from the mid-80s to the mid-90s. When shmups went fully with the bullet hell direction it mostly turned me off from shmups altogether.

I think for me when the shift from sprites to 3D/Render sprites and using a lot of the anime/loli/moe artstyle is when I stop caring for the newer stuff.

I guess I like the military/space shooter settings.

I tried out some dounin games and I just can't play them for long because of a lack of polish.

I'm very picky.

[chempop]

THE wrote:
Just look at our progression from Last Hope->Pink Bullets->Fast Striker.
The difference between each is huge...

RHE wrote: Bad -> Good- > Greatshmup™

LOL, never said it's bad. For a memorizer it's a great game. Just wanted to point out, that we got better and better which each release.

Dux never was on our site, because it's not made by NG:DEV.TEAM!

AHHHHH! So sorry, thats twice in one thread.... I've got a serious case of dyslexia going on today!

Is the music in Fast Striker done by the same dude who did Last Hope? I hope so, hardy-har

[Obiwanshinobi]

I tried out some dounin games and I just can't play them for long because of a lack of polish.

Play Hydorah. It's not without technical issues, but at least the presentation is as polished as you could reasonably ask for.

[Domino]

I tried out some dounin games and I just can't play them for long because of a lack of polish.

Play Hydorah. It's not without technical issues, but at least the presentation is as polished as you could reasonably ask for.

Thanks for the tip!

[agustusx]

Good point. But all you need today is basically a Japanese x360 and you can access nearly all new commercially developed shmups.

I own a J360 and the majority of shmups released on the system including a fair amount of non-Cave titles.(Mamoru-kun, CoS3, Triggerheart, RIV, Senko No Ronde 1 & DUO). Truth be told none of my non-Cave games compare with my favs which are currently Futari and DeathSmiles. DeathSmiles is a funny one because I really wanted to hate it for being overly lolitastic (JB > Loli), but over the months of owning it its taken to the poduim.

Back on topic, personally I'm pretty content with this generation, I don't expect all games satisfy me as much as Futari. However it would be nice if a dev other than Cave entered my top 3. I think it is related to what I have access to which leads to

A DC is 50 bucks or something and worth it for the shmups alone...

I am an owner of 3 Dreamcasts, two of which can't play games for more than 30 minutes before overheating. So you'll have to forgive me from not really wanting to invest in DC hardware and software anymore. I am wiling to support the genre and its devs, but I do have a threshold.

@Jockel I'm surprised I have to say that DC's are no longer supported and can no longer be purchased reliably. It's not a system I would recommend lightly, but I'm glad for those who are still having success with theirs.

[clp]

The overheating issue is simply resolved with a small mod.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I'm not sure if releasing commercially games for dead systems is the sort of mindset that gets along with making masterpieces. I mean, if your game really is intended to be all that special, is it necessary to make it any more special? Even some ZX Spectrum games, made by bedroom developers and pirated to hell and back in the days of the industry growing fatter with every day and building new hardware for one game wasn't unheard of, even some of those Spectrum games are considered classics.

[Rozyrg]

Great ones can and still will be made IMO; but as for them being as great as they once were, I can agree. That's really no mystery, though. The competition between experienced game makers regularly working in the genre will never be as fierce and there will never be as much money to be made as there once was.

My personal feeling is the best you can really do is try to capture some of the original feeling or heart of those games.

[devilmanozzy]

This thread is a total joke. Let me know when you'll actually get out of you all's caves and see a walmart or gamespot.


..........All you will find for shmups is Raiden IV and Space Invaders Extreme 2. Thats it. Stop telling me about all these titles when really it is these. We ARE in a dying niche genre. Going through the ps2 of used games you may find the last games released years ago, but for the most part fans now have to go to fan make games.

[Taylor]

While the OP is asking why people can't make great shmups, an equally good question is why can't devs make them accessible to a larger audience. Are the digital distribution channels so draconian that indie devs are scared away from them. I've heard that Steam has some decent shmups these days but I can't say I've really logged in for years to check for myself.(I don't really use my home PC much)

In Japan you can buy the console games straight from high-street stores and pop into any second hand shop for a dreamcast and games collection. Indie games also get sold in specalist shops if they're really good (or the author had the wisdom to replace his main character with one from touhou), and can be found flogged at any manga convention. You're jumping through hoops because you're not the target market, whitey.

Steam currently has no Japanese presence. So all the shmups on it are western. So all the shmups on it are bloomed, particle systems with an arena shooters attached. The Japanese have places like DLSite but I’ve no idea how popular it is, though it does seem like Steam is an untapped market for them.

[rancor]

....All you will find for shmups is Raiden IV and Space Invaders Extreme 2. Thats it. Stop telling me about all these titles when really it is these. We ARE in a dying niche genre. Going through the ps2 of used games you may find the last games released years ago, but for the most part fans now have to go to fan make games.

[the black_7]

Call the OP a cave fanboy or not but Cave has risen the standard to what a AAA shmup should be

Cave has made innovations in things like scoring, but I don't see where they push the envelope anywhere else.

Nothing they've made compares to games like Ikaruga or Gradius V.

[Drum]

....All you will find for shmups is Raiden IV and Space Invaders Extreme 2. Thats it. Stop telling me about all these titles when really it is these. We ARE in a dying niche genre. Going through the ps2 of used games you may find the last games released years ago, but for the most part fans now have to go to fan make games.

It's pretty cool that they sell wells at Wal-Mart now, but I wouldn't want to live in one.

[dan76]

Call the OP a cave fanboy or not but Cave has risen the standard to what a AAA shmup should be

Cave has made innovations in things like scoring, but I don't see where they push the envelope anywhere else.

Nothing they've made compares to games like Ikaruga or Gradius V.

Do you work for IGN?

[neorichieb1971]

I think Cave are amazing at what they do (you wouldn't find me praising much else that highly). The only thing I knock them down points for is low resolution arcade hardware. Considering much smaller companies have gone 640x480 or higher it does beg the question when they will upgrade.

Shouldn't we define "Great" before we start preaching. Ultimately "Great" could mean anything. Example, one guy above talks about Best buy and Walmart not stocking apparent "Great" shmups. I think he has a point, if something is "Great" it makes it worldwide. Not some Japanese community in Akihabara.

[Skykid]

Man, that's 7 different companies making kick ass shmups.

Ten, actually. You completely disregarded Psikyo, Seibu, and Takumi.

Yeah, they're not faves of mine.

They must have made some games you like though?

GigaWing
Sengoku Ace 2
Raiden Fighters??!

[agustusx]

You're jumping through hoops because you're not the target market, native-american negro mutt.

fixed, I get it and I'm used to it trust me I was really targeting our Euro devs with my comments. But I get the vibe now that I'm a fool for thinking about shmups outside of Japan. My favs are indeed from Japan, but I envisioned it could be otherwise. Particularly because we have some Euro devs commenting on this thread, but their statements explain very clearly why distribution is still a challenge.

I mean, if your game really is intended to be all that special, is it necessary to make it any more special?

A bit of a tangent but it's not really all that special to me if I don't have access, granted I tend to forget that devs don't really care about me or my market anyway. Your right though, there are countless classical Greek tragedies that have been lost in time, with only fragments left to read and "scholars" regard them as the best ever made. I guess my point is simply because ShmupScholarX tells me it's great, I can't really acknowledge that from a few screen-shots and some colorful descriptions. I won't challenge that Spectrum games aren't classics, I'll have to trust you on that. For modern shmups It just makes sense to me that if something is really all that hot they would share, but we've beaten the economics of it all the death and I'll leave it alone and let the thread address the actual game development and not its distribution.

[evil_ash_xero]

They must have made some games you like though?

GigaWing
Sengoku Ace 2
Raiden Fighters??!

Well.....I like Mars Matrix. I also like Zero Gunner 2 and Dragon Blaze. I don't like any Raiden games.
I actually think Mars Matrix is pretty damn interesting, but i'm TERRIBLE at it.

Now, the reason I didn't mention them, is because these games that I liked came out during the Dreamcast/PS2 era, which was later. I wasn't too hot on Psikyo's games in the 32 bit era.

[clp]

I don't like any Raiden games.

All future opinions void.

[CptRansom]

I don't like any Raiden games.

All future opinions void.

+1

[TrevHead (TVR)]

While Steam isan unknown thing in Japan. Due to Recettear been picked up by a western publisher, translated and sold on steam where it shot to number 1 in the sales charts, it would be intresting to see those whove noticed start jumping on the bandwagon and bring even more doujins to the west. Where non arena shmups fit into this equation i dont know but hopefully itll be better then whats on steam atm. (apart from arena shmups theres only the god awfull Razor 2 which is a nice looking 3D vert thats as bad and euroshmuppy as those abortions by CoderGames, it steam forum page is full of ppl asking for a refund)

As ive said just recently on another thread considering the sheer number of steam users (aswell as PC gamers as a whole) out there the mind does boggle at just how much the games industry both east and west ignores them.