Why do you suppose people can't make great shmups anymore?

[xris]

... This doesn't really sit well.. There are a ton of games being made now!!
Raiden IV was good, damn good. There are games that I have yet to play that look promising, Fast Strikers, and Bullet Soul stand out. Hell, Shoot 1up is a step in the right direction! And, when he makes another shmup, it'll probably be even more awesome! What do you have to say when Suda 51 announced his shmup? Crimzon Clover absolutely killed it with a 3 stage demo! And, we are frothing at the mouth for the full version! Xona Games has just put up a vid for Score Rush, that looks worth playing to me. Without the interest and support from us, nothing great will ever come out.

[Square King]

edit: nevermind

[TrevHead (TVR)]

... This doesn't really sit well.. There are a ton of games being made now!!
Raiden IV was good, damn good. There are games that I have yet to play that look promising, Fast Strikers, and Bullet Soul stand out. Hell, Shoot 1up is a step in the right direction! And, when he makes another shmup, it'll probably be even more awesome! What do you have to say when Suda 51 announced his shmup? Crimzon Clover absolutely killed it with a 3 stage demo! And, we are frothing at the mouth for the full version! Xona Games has just put up a vid for Score Rush, that looks worth playing to me. Without the interest and support from us, nothing great will ever come out.

i agree with you there (and will add that theres even loads more great doujins been made) but the OP is right aswell in some ways in that some devs have forgotten how to make good shmups, just look at Konami.


Call the OP a cave fanboy or not but Cave has risen the standard to what a AAA shmup should be

[evil_ash_xero]

I'm not a Cave fanboy. I just got into them in the last few years, and the reason being was because they were the only guys making great shmups. (well, after Treasure quit)

[clp]

I'm not a Cave fanboy. I just got into them in the last few years, and the reason being was because they were the only guys making great shmups. (well, after Treasure quit)

But there are already so many AMAZING shmups out there besides cave even in mame alone that could keep you going forever so surely its one of the few genres where constant streams of new are not so important from a player perspective anyway.

[RNGmaster]

You don't make shmups these days and expect profit unless you have an established fanbase (like CAVE). That's the sad truth. Indie developers aren't concerned with profit on a massive scale, though, and so they keep pumping out new ideas. And you really shouldn't be complaining about a lack of new titles when there are so many good old ones that never fade/ haven't got the attention they deserve.

[THE]

@dan76

You are using a lot the word garbage, that sound for me as you consider everything not Cave made garbage? I never meant that shmups fans should buy every garbage, but maybe some could open their mind a little more for other devs. Some devs may start with a mediocre game, but they have potential to become a lot better within a few releases.

For example:
Just look at our progression from Last Hope->Pink Bullets->Fast Striker.
The difference between each is huge...if we only had 20% of the financial resources of Cave, we could do amazing things both in shmups and STGs. But we mostly just get ignored...but I'm sure that people will see our potential after playing Fast Striker for DC, well if they play it at all

[RHE]

Just look at our progression from Last Hope->Pink Bullets->Fast Striker.
The difference between each is huge...

Bad -> Good- > Greatshmup™

[THE]

i agree with you there (and will add that theres even loads more great doujins been made) but the OP is right aswell in some ways in that some devs have forgotten how to make good shmups, just look at Konami.

Not Konami made this shmups, the people that worked back in that time for Konami did! Those people are long time gone. Just alone changing a superior officer to another, can completely kill the ability of a team to create good games, but the whole teams are gone. I don't think we will ever see a good shmup from this former leading shmups studios again. Konami, Capcom, IREM, Seibu, Tecnosoft, Toaplan, they are all gone...
The future for shmups are Cave and small independent studios.

I'm not a Cave fanboy. I just got into them in the last few years, and the reason being was because they were the only guys making great shmups. (well, after Treasure quit)

Treasure never quit, there weren't a shmup dev to begin with. They can still put out a new shmup from time to time. But it's just one genre of many for them. If suddenly 200,000 people purchase RSG, they will do a sequel for Wii

[professor ganson]

Dear op, consider just the 360:

Trizeal
Shikigami no Shiro 3
Raiden IV

These games are not by Cave, and they are all awesome. What more do you want?

[RHE]

What more do you want?

He wants them great not just awesome.

[professor ganson]

What more do you want?

He wants them great not just awesome.

Ah, now it makes perfect sense. Thanks for clearing that up!

[evil_ash_xero]

Ahem, well, I guess it's a matter of what one likes. I didn't like Raiden IV.

I just recall a better time, when there were more options out. Do DonPachi, Battle Garegga, Radiant Silvergun, Layer Section, Batsugun, Gradius Gaiden, Einhander, G Darius, R-Type Delta, Soukyugurentai, all out during the same time period(32 bit systems). And that's not even counting the arcade only ones(ESP Ra.De., Batrider, etc.). If we had this kind of variety and quality now, it would be phenomenal. Man, that's 7 different companies making kick ass shmups.

And yeah yeah yeah, I know there are tons of old games. But that's like saying "I don't care if anymore good books or films come out again...I have enough already!". Everyone likes the new.

Just wonderin' why you guys thought it wasn't like that now. But if you think things are just hunky dory now...well, that's fine.

[dan76]

@THE
It's true that these days if I play a shmup it'll probably be a Cave game, but I don't blindly love everything they make - all those arrange modes are God awful, DFK left me cold... anyhow, this isn't about that. You are assuming that I may have a closed mind - were this the case (which it isn't) wouldn't it be down to you to open it with a great game. C'mon, amaze me. If you want my money, you've got to give me something.

While it's good that there has been a progression in the quality of your work, a full priced game is a full priced game. Are you now saying that Last Hope wasn't worth the cost ( I remember seeing it for £70 when it first came out!). Someone probably bought it. Again, it's nuts to expect customers to support your progression in the hope that 3, 5, 8, 20 games down the line you actually make one worth buying! As a consumer I have the luxury of not having to give as toss about the developers problems.

Your point of view seems to be putting the blame on the consumer, for having closed minds, for not giving you a chance etc. I don't think this is true or a healthy way to view the situation if you're a developer. The bottom line is that if you make better games people will buy them.

[clp]

@THE
It's true that these days if I play as shmup it'll probably be a Cave game, but I don't blindly love everything they make - all those arrange modes are God awful.

Bar Espgaluda arrange which is honestly awesome ! better than the original and deserves a solo release.

[MathU]

It's threads like these that make me embarrassed I even post here.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Although i havnt bought any of THEs games I tend to think that niche products (ie English anime / manga, professional software etc) can get away with selling at a higher price due to the simple fact that not many units will get sold and the developers need to raise the price to make it ecomnomically worth while. Ofc it needs to be a quality product not just any old piece of shit repackaged as an niche collectors item.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

It's threads like these that make me embarrassed I even post here.

Imo i do think this is a worthy thread to discuss. Making a good shmup is an art that not everybody can do to a good enough standard. Although unlike the OP i do think theres more the just Cave who can make a good shmup even if Cave games are the best examples of modern day shmups

[evil_ash_xero]

It's threads like these that make me embarrassed I even post here.

Well geez.

[professor ganson]

I just recall a better time, when there were more options out. Do DonPachi, Battle Garegga, Radiant Silvergun, Layer Section, Batsugun, Gradius Gaiden, Einhander, G Darius, R-Type Delta, Soukyugurentai, all out during the same time period(32 bit systems). And that's not even counting the arcade only ones(ESP Ra.De., Batrider, etc.). If we had this kind of variety and quality now, it would be phenomenal. Man, that's 7 different companies making kick ass shmups.

And yet that was long after the golden age of shooters, on most accounts. It's been a steady decline for many, many years, a decline that is no doubt partly due to the waning interest in arcades in Japan and worldwide. As you know, the shmup is principally a type of arcade game.

[Taylor]

Touhou players generally don't play anything

You could've stopped here.

[Ed Oscuro]

Touhou players generally don't play anything

You could've stopped here.

brb too "busy" with c78 materials to care

[Taylor]

I only "listen" to the "music."

[neorichieb1971]

In the old days the talent/money was here at this very genre at the forefront of videogame technology.

Although people make shmups, the talent that designed the best ones have retired, moved onto another genre that pays a little better.

What we are left with are part timing copy cats and sprite stealing cowboys to some extent. There are some fanboys.

The problem is, with so many shmups already behind us from the golden age, it would take some of those older folks to revisit the genre to put some well needed oil on the cogs again. If someone put a big $2m carrot to make a shmup that was good.. I'm sure some pretty interesting results would ensue.

[rancor]

Keep in mind that legal access to a lot of doujin shooters requires some real effort when you live in the west. I'm sure a lot of those games certainly are a lot of fun, but i'm never going to go through the hassle of tracking them down if they look like something I've played before. That's the problem.

*ahem*

If I may interject here...

[Demetori]

Keep in mind that legal access to a lot of doujin shooters requires some real effort when you live in the west. I'm sure a lot of those games certainly are a lot of fun, but i'm never going to go through the hassle of tracking them down if they look like something I've played before. That's the problem.

*ahem*

If I may interject here...

Please do.

[evil_ash_xero]

Please click on the site in my sig, go to the free software / demo section and download either Crimzon Clover or Siter Skains' Alltynex Second. Those are both amazing titles that either have, or are going to be released in 2010. There are still amazing shooters being made, you just cant rely on arcades for all of your titles. Even then NG:DEV team have made an amazing shooter this year in their Fast Striker title. Not only is your title controversial, but in my opinion it's downright wrong.

...anyhow, thats just my opinion.

You know, after playing the Crimzon Clover demo, it made me sad it was a doujin. Because it plays better than 95% of shmups out there today, but it looks...well, like a doujin. Good music and gameplay.

What if RayStorm and Do DonPachi DFK had a baby?

[THE]

@THE
While it's good that there has been a progression in the quality of your work, a full priced game is a full priced game. Are you now saying that Last Hope wasn't worth the cost ( I remember seeing it for £70 when it first came out!). Someone probably bought it.

Just for the record, the regular edition of our Dreamcast games normally retail at 32 EUR / £28.
If someone pays more, well that's not our fault...full price for shmups is 60-70 EUR to me.

>Your point of view seems to be putting the blame on the consumer, for having closed minds, for not giving you a chance etc. I don't think this is true or a healthy way to view the situation if you're a developer. The bottom line is that if you make better games people will buy them.

I'm not expecting people to buy our games to support us, I'm just wishing it. You are of course right, a developer needs to provide high quality to ensure that people buy their products.
Well we do that with Fast Striker! So there shouldn't be a problem, right? Still there is a lot of room in sales...
But unfortunately video game sales today are driven more by marketing, hype and brands. But we are working hard on becoming a brand....and we will do.

[THE]

You know, after playing the Crimzon Clover demo, it made me sad it was a doujin. Because it plays better than 95% of shmups out there today, but it looks...well, like a doujin. Good music and gameplay.

What if RayStorm and Do DonPachi DFK had a baby?

Yeah, I wish this guy speaks English, I really would like to work with him. Crimzon Clover would be a perfect match for our JAMMA board or at least for Dreamcast...just needs a small GFX overhaul and some tweaking. None of which would be a problem. I would gladly pay for the license...

[evil_ash_xero]

You know, after playing the Crimzon Clover demo, it made me sad it was a doujin. Because it plays better than 95% of shmups out there today, but it looks...well, like a doujin. Good music and gameplay.

What if RayStorm and Do DonPachi DFK had a baby?

Yeah, I wish this guy speaks English, I really would like to work with him. Crimzon Clover would be a perfect match for our JAMMA board or at least for Dreamcast...just needs a small GFX overhaul and some tweaking. None of which would be a problem. I would gladly pay for the license...

Now that would be really cool. Give it a graphical overhaul(from what i've seen, you guys have solid graphics), and we'd be somewhere. But it's still fun anyway. But it needs some visual work. Have you tried to contact him?