CO-OP Shmups; a taboo thing?

[Demetori]

So, I can't really find any Youtube videos of people playing any shmups in coop. I dunno about everyone else but I enjoy playing with my siblings when I go home, it is a lot harder but it's also fun seeing who can stay alive most of the time.

Does anyone here play any multi-player shmups and if so, for scoring reasons or just for fun?

[Jockel]

Twinkle Star Sprites or bust.
Seriously, multiplayer almost always sucks, because it either
*fucks up the balancing
*fucks up individual scoring
*irritates you that some other ship is flying around

or all of the above.
And then, there's the second coming of christ, pure awesomeness
pressed into cartridge-form known as Twinkle Star Sprites.

[Demetori]

I'm quite good at Twinkle Star Sprites, played it in Japan a lot when I was over there.

[Battletoad]

I kinda like playing some shmups in Coop, but mainly just for fun.

Here is me and an online friend 1CCing Giga Wing in Coop. He rarely knew the later stages and generally has not so much experience with bullet hell shooters, so that was really cool. We just played for survival of course. Sometimes I bombed to go sure and protect him, in the end I was the first to lose a life.

YouTube playlist

Besides I credit feed Giga Wing 2, Under Defeat, Zero Gunner 2 and Gradius V with a friend sometimes. In Giga Wing 2 you can even play for score this way because the medal count isn´t reset when dying like it is in single player mode. Also the score isn´t reset when continuing. Not so well balanced yeah, but still a whole lot of fun.

Giga Wing 2 is one of the few games that might be good in Coop to play for score and 1CC at the same time. But only if you have 2 experienced players and well planned strategies.

[Drum]

It's not so much a taboo thing, but many - most? - shooters are geared towards high score and co-op does mess with that unless they've been designed specifically (I'm not sure why anybody would play co-op for scoring reasons ... what do you know that I don't?). I guess it's because they are often so fast-paced/hectic that there is little room for anything but the broadest co-op strategies (ie. Just stay on your side of the screen. I SAID YOUR SIDE OF THE SCREEN. DON'T TAKE THAT POWER-UP I JUST DIED.).
I'm mostly just guessing and looking at the differences between shmups and arcade genres that seem particularly geared for co-op (bmups, single-screen platformers). There are a tiny handful of shooters with novel mechanics that encourage or reward co-op play though, so you might want to check them out: Side Arms, Lightning Fighters (aka Trigon), 1942:Joint Strike, there are probably more. I never played Hellfire 2P but that strikes me as a perfect candidate for a fun co-op experience/grounds for divorce.

[sirmax]

I tried to co-op shmups with a friend of mine. Mainly to introduce him to shmups, but I was also fed up of co-oping Halo. We began with R-Type Generations wich worked out quite good, although we mistook our fighters sometimes and "stole" each others power-ups, but with a little bit of planing, the latter wasn't that much of a problem.

Then I thought introduce him to Ikaruga. Having played R-Type before, this was also no problem for him, he also thought it was way easier than R-Type (except for the 4th stage).

Then I had the great idea to introduce him to Futari's Novicemode (or was it 1.5 original? I don't know anymore). That was a mistake. I've never seen him panicing so much in a game. He was flying all over the screen, making it impossible for me to dodge anything, because the weren't any patterns anymore, just everything going everywhere. And he kept bombing, ohmygod, he even died and creditfeed on purpose to get bombs.

I don't co-op any shmups anymore with anybody, because of this.

[Drum]

Was just playing Pollux for some reason - which is co-op, incidentally - and I thought a game where you could actually create your own bullet plugholes (instead of just activating ones hidden in levels) would be awesome in co-op. Especially if you are a motherfucker.

[Demetori]

I'm wondering how a versus type game would work in the vein of Twinkle Star Sprites.
The more ships you're killing and the more points your gaining faster makes it so the enemies have more HP and maybe faster bullets on your opponents side or something.

Or the other way around, your opponent gets boosted damage or something.

[Keade]

TSS is good, but I wouldn't say it's co-op, it is versus all the way.
But it's 2 players alright, if it is what the OP meant.

Jockel has good points. You can add that in many games, if 2 players shoot together, things becomes crowded and often confusing, it just becomes harder to read overall.
To sum up, an additionnal player-controlled ship is an impredictable element on screen for each of the players, and most shmups have few to none of them, hence finding it disturbing having that ship move all around the screen, I think it is as simple as that

Does anyone here play any multi-player shmups and if so, for scoring reasons or just for fun?

Yes, I used to play Twinkle Star Sprites. Maybe we could play some matches on Supercade some time.

[Jockel]

Oh, i forgot one of the most annoying parts about co-op shooting.
Aimed bullets.

[Ghegs]

Me and Zaarock played some R-Type Dimensions co-op and I found it pretty fun. I'd love to get back to it and make no-miss co-op superplay videos for both games, but sadly whoever's not hosting the game will experience slight input lag. Annoying.

Doing the co-op offline locally would solve that problem, but that of course has its own logistical problems...mainly finding the other player.

[Ruldra]

Summing up the problems of co-op shmupping:

- More often than not the other guy doesn't know how to play a shmup, so he keeps dying, bombing and credit-feeding
- The other ship distracts you, often leading to your death even when you know the stage well
- Powerup stealing
- The other ship makes bullets go all over the place, leading to the death of both players
- You can't play for score at all

I tried playing co-op a couple of times and it was really frustrating. I'll only try that again if the other guy really knows how to play shmups.

By the way, is there any shmup out there where score counts for both players and not individually? This would solve the scoring problem in co-op.

[Battletoad]

By the way, is there any shmup out there where score counts for both players and not individually? This would solve the scoring problem in co-op.

Giga Wing 2. Multiplier and score both count together.

[Observer]

See, Cave still puts 2 player modes in their games but in something like DoDonPachi it's pretty much pointless.

HOWEVER, playing DPP-DOJ with a buddy transforms a painful experience of horror and wtfbbq night terrors into something at least enjoyable. Yes, forget about chaining though. Same with the original DDP, which is even funnier with two people: you forget about chaining and focus on trying not to get owned by the flak. Plus you have twice the bomb stock so it's a matter of roflstomping everything at will. Now, it would be good to see a 2 player run beating Hibachi, which I think it has been done already but with just one guy controlling 2 ships?

Raiden III and IV also have some partially succesful 2 player modes... that you can play alone using both ships, heh.

The huge exception is the game exception (pun intended).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMfUOOHjfuI

Here you can see the creator of Diadra Empty, i-saint and another buddy teaming up to blast those evil cubes.

If you can set up a LAN, I think you can play the campaign in a 4-player co-op of glory and lock-on laser missiles. Almost like Armored F---- Warriors but with surreal cubes and huge lasers.

Gradius games also seem to have a lot of double enemy formations that clearly give away there should be a second player shooting them down in an almost Evangelion-worth synchronisation exercise. Plus, with some "stick together" tactic, bosses would go down way faster (unless the weapons do half the damage). And there is no chaining.

Something cool would be having a ship with multidirectional/multipurpose fire and you put your buddy to control the fire ("just hold fire until everything stops moving", 'cause if the doesn't know how to play, it's the only thing he will do well ) while you take care of the dodging (because you are the Master of the Universe of Shmukmups and king of dodging) and bombing (so the other guy just fires and doesn't waste bombs on nothing).

Game title: Double the pain!

[ZacharyB]

Co-op play is just for having a good time. It works best when you just relax and don't care about dying or score; just spending time with another person.

[Keade]

- Powerup stealing

I know it is stupid, but I think that part can be fun sometimes
It's a bit like beating your friends in a beat'em all game.

By the way, is there any shmup out there where score counts for both players and not individually? This would solve the scoring problem in co-op.

Maybe Dangun Feveron, too ? I'm almost certain the + bonuses are in common, not that sure about the actual scores, though.

[captpain]

I kinda like playing some shmups in Coop, but mainly just for fun.

Here is me and an online friend 1CCing Giga Wing in Coop. He rarely knew the later stages and generally has not so much experience with bullet hell shooters, so that was really cool. We just played for survival of course. Sometimes I bombed to go sure and protect him, in the end I was the first to lose a life.

YouTube playlist

Besides I credit feed Giga Wing 2, Under Defeat, Zero Gunner 2 and Gradius V with a friend sometimes. In Giga Wing 2 you can even play for score this way because the medal count isn´t reset when dying like it is in single player mode. Also the score isn´t reset when continuing. Not so well balanced yeah, but still a whole lot of fun.

Giga Wing 2 is one of the few games that might be good in Coop to play for score and 1CC at the same time. But only if you have 2 experienced players and well planned strategies.

Danbo Daxter and I got to the pre-TLB boss before the game crashed, and we're across the ocean from each other. Giga Wing gets totally destroyed with two players... I don't think it ranks up at all.

Generally, any game with a wiggly screen is really tough to play 2P. Otherwise, it's lots of fun, assuming two fairly competent people are playing.

[njiska]

Summing up the problems of co-op shmupping:

- More often than not the other guy doesn't know how to play a shmup, so he keeps dying, bombing and credit-feeding
- The other ship distracts you, often leading to your death even when you know the stage well
- Powerup stealing
- The other ship makes bullets go all over the place, leading to the death of both players
- You can't play for score at all

These are all the reasons why i like playing co-op. In short CO-OP shmups for me are just a fun time sync. They allow me to play a genre I love with my friends who may otherwise be hesitant. I don't have to worry about score or even survival. Just sit back, have fun and laugh at how things go wrong.

Single player is serious business. Multiplayer is literally just for fucking around.

[Edwards80]

If you try to play to 1cc or going for high scores then co-op rarely seems much fun.

Playing competitively, going for scores + Stealing Powerups can be great fun. All the annoyance that occurs when aimed shots follow the other player and catch you out, turn into a very funny way to compete against each other.

Decimation X and Hypership out of Control on XBLA are alot of fun with 4 mates and a few beers. . . they aren't exactly traditional shoot 'em ups with co-op tagged onto them though.

[MathU]

I've been working on a Darius Gaiden 2-player clear with a friend of mine for a while now. It's a shame more people don't play shooters together. I try to get people to play more on the IRC channel every now and then, but maybe 3 or 4 people even have a clue that you can do netplay.

Games such as In The Hunt and R-Type Leo make excellent co-op shooters for players of just about any skill. Other games require both players to be at similar skill levels for them to have similar levels of enjoyment.

[Frenetic]

I've been playing Valkyrie Sky for about a week or so. It's the MMORPG with the combat being shmup based. IMHO, this is the best co-op shmup around. The Swordsman class has a sword like in the Milestone shmups, the sword also blocks bullets! The Bowman is more traditional, and then there are mages who have homing shots and can post barriers on the field, and finally summoners which are really interesting. Playing in a team makes for a unique shmup experience. Player fire isn't distracting and the game is pretty lag free. I use my Hori stick and it works like a dream, especially with button mapping.

Plus it's free! When you get started on the game be sure to do quests, you can read more at the wiki here: http://valkyriesky.wikia.com/

[Aliquantic]

I try to get people to play more on the IRC channel every now and then, but maybe 3 or 4 people even have a clue that you can do netplay.

Okay, count me in as part of the I'm sorry but I don't have a clue crew... are you using Kailasa and MAME (which didn't work very well in my experience) or something else altogether?

The most fun I've had playing in real co-op was with Psykio games (I'd almost prefer co-op to single play for those), and Vasara for gratuitous ramming of the "allied" ship... oh, and messing up with Kakusei on Galuda is pretty fun too (Just don't even think of going for a 1cc)

[brentsg]

I have twin 4 year olds. I often open up continues, and either play with them or let them play together. They cleared DS MBL this weekend on who knows how many credits.

[Dave_K.]

Screw co-op, its all about one person piloting two ships at the same time!

[sh00g]

I never turn down co-op opportunities. I think its way more fun.

[captpain]

Screw co-op, its all about one person piloting two ships at the same time!

Shmups = HARDEST VIDEO GAME BOSS EVER and ONE GUY PLAYS BOTH IKARUGA SHIPS

[the2bears]

Must be blurry-eyed from games... read the thread title as "COIN-OP Shmups; a taboo thing?"

I was already to come in here defending the arcade and lamenting its loss.

Bill

[guigui]

Shmups = HARDEST VIDEO GAME BOSS EVER and ONE GUY PLAYS BOTH IKARUGA SHIPS

I just can't stand that cliché.

I also wish I had a friend that actually knows ho to play shmup, I am sure that working on a Ikaruga co-op game would be a really enjoyable video game experience.

[neorichieb1971]

I can't find anyone who plays shmups seriously. Its a case of them bombing through the whole game credit feeding.

The only game I can play in Co-op is Bubble bobble and even then I can get to level 40 without losing a life whilst they use the other 15 credits lol.

[Jockel]

I am sure that working on a Ikaruga co-op game would be a really enjoyable video game experience.

No.
Think about it.
The keyword here is "backfire".