Shooting or Dodging?

[moozooh]

Definitely dodging. I would take a dodgesim like YGS2000 or sdmkun (let alone Shoot the Bullet) over Space Invaders any day.

[nimitz]

Aquas has a point, limited player shot on screen with autofire not being the "best" option puts more emphasis on shooting. Games in which destroying enemies quickly is important are like that too. The vast majority shmups have some kind of gimmick that make it so dodging is not the only thing you have to do. Older games tend to have fewer thing going on other than shooting + dodging, so obviously shooting becomes more important in relative terms.

That being said, a game like flying shark is still a lot more about dodging than shooting, most of your attention when playing that game is focused on dodging super-fast aimed shots, not at shooting accurately or with good timing.

A game which has some sort of balance between shooting and dodging would be Galaga, the bonus stages in particular which are 100% shooting.


Dodging became more important than shooting in the genre around 1984 or so, it has been the "main" attraction since then. That distinction the OP makes between "traditional" shmups and bullet-hell in terms of shooting vs dodging is inaccurate, there are many factors that distinguish say Raiden from DOJ, just not that one.

[sikraiken]

This is a loaded question, you should never be dodging bullets if you learn2play. Dodging implies lack of control.

[ncp]

Dodging implies lack of control.

what

[agustusx]

Dodging: deliberately avoiding; keeping away from or preventing from happening link to source

Sounds like your still in control while dodging

[mjclark]

Surely not dodging implies lack of control - if I take my hands off the controller whilst playing then I don't dodge QED
If you want to survive then dodging is probably the most appropriate response to bullets that are being aimed at you.

[sikraiken]

You should be playing in a way that makes it look like the bullets are dodging you, not the other way around (in other words, you know the game).

Shooting all the time.

[Drum]

I don't like doing either.

[ZacharyB]

Sounds like your still in control while dodging

No no, he meant in control of the situation.

My favorite game is rRootage, where you just hold down a laser button and then keep tabs on the bullets. So I think I prefer "dodging." Actively engaging and aiming for targets is different... it's the opposite of dodging; flying AT the enemy (with bullets). It's a passive vs. active situation.

In spite of this dichotomy, the best moments do come when you navigate a cobra triangle of bullets to plant a fat one right on some difigured flying fortress's chin.

Edit: I meant "bermuda triangle," but I'll just leave that little typo in there.

[toaplan_shmupfan]

That being said, a game like flying shark is still a lot more about dodging than shooting, most of your attention when playing that game is focused on dodging super-fast aimed shots, not at shooting accurately or with good timing.

I don't think that's true.

Flying Shark/Sky Shark involves a lot of high speed nearly point blanking of the larger planes that shoot 3-spread (entering from the top of the screen) or 5-spread shots (entering from the bottom of the screen), rapid elimination of gun turrets on larger boats that are not a boss (especially stage 3), rapid destruction of tanks and gunboats if only to initially destroy the gun turret parts, and quick elimination of stage bosses even if they are not always right at the end of the stage.

Take too long to destroy the stage 1 boss, and its firing rate increases as the tanks join in and there's even a turret installation before the end of the stage if I recall. Easiest way out of that is just bomb-bomb-bomb while firing but that's a loss of 3000 points per bomb used. I ended up using a quick alternating fingers method on the fire button similar to the well-known Joust double-flap method to get that boss out of there using no bombs. (Stage 1 never gets played again on subsequent loops.)

Take too long to destroy the stage 2 boss (dual tanks firing multi-spread shot, entering one at a time) and again, the tanks will soon be joining in to add to the spread fire from the tank (or tanks, if both tanks are still on screen).

Don't fire enough times for the stage 3 battleship mid-stage boss, and lots of points are lost. That middle section simply cannot be destroyed until it goes off the bottom of the screen and then goes up again, so hitting it as many times as possible before it can be destroyed is a great score increasing tactic.

Take too long to destroy the stage 4 mid-stage railroad tank bosses (entering one at a time) and their rapid one-two firing will add to other enemies joining in but... the faster each tank is getting destroyed, the rapid firing from the tank increases gradually to a rapid one-two-three-four-five-six-seven burst of fire with just a short pause before the next burst. Okay, so each of those railroad tanks can be quickly eliminated by quick firing plus dropping two bombs, but then once again it's 3000 points bonus for each remaining bomb at the end of the stage lost for each bomb used during that stage. In fact, stage 4 is really the only stage that has much more emphasis on dodging than on shooting, I think.

Take too long to destroy the stage 5 bomber, and the green planes will start joining in, later on there will be a formation of tanks at the shore, and if the bomber still isn't destroyed it will start to exit towards the bottom of the screen. However, get rid of the bomber too quickly, and after the planes the shoreline will start with an a whole line of tanks. Lose a plane at the bomber, the most power up one can get back before fighting it again is 2nd level shot--it's definitely about quick shooting since the bomber's shot pattern is easily dodgeable but getting the bomber out of there before the other enemies join in.

Lose a plane in the middle of stage 3 on the first loop or higher and get placed very near a larger gun boat turret? It's not just about dodging, it's get that turret out of there shoot it as it quickly as possible as it spins to aim and get a shot off.

And so on, but I hope I've made a point here.

[nimitz]

Only if you include "positioning" as part of "shooting". Shooting is more about Aiming bullets accurately, Space Invaders comes to mind, or about shooting with proper timing, like Galaga or Gyruss.

All shmups with slow player speed have more focus on positioning, even bullet hell games often have a big emphasis on positioning, most chaining based scoring systems for example.

[Blue Protoman]

Perhaps I worded my thread incorrectly.

[ShmupSamurai]

Oooooh tough choice...

For me personally it's all about balance between both.

[third_strike]

This is a loaded question, you should never be frantically dodging bullets if you learn2play. frenzied Dodging implies lack of control.

Yes!

You should be playing in a way that makes you do a small amount of smooth moves, not the other way around (in other words, you know the game).

Shooting when is required

+1

[Phoenix]

Off course it is shooting, it is called a shooter not a dodger.

But maybe the main reason for me not liking dodgers is because:

- you have weapons that can fill large parts of the screen, so you dont have to aim properly
- most of the time you even dont see what you are shooting at, just hit the shootbuttum and whatch out for bullets
- i dont like the flowerlesc bullet patterns that come out of nowhere, i like it when a bug or plane is shooting at me directly.
- most of the enemies you never see because you shoot them before they are visiable on your screen. I like to see wtf that was what ive just shot.

[Lance Boyle]

Is there anything like Raiden, only with twice as many bullets going half as fast?

Because that sounds like it would hit the sweet spot for me, just hypothetically.

[JGcontraman]

Yea... shoot first dodge later.

But dodging is vital as well, especially depending on the situation. But ALWAYS make sure your firing shots prior to dodging. This goes for any game with the ability to attack/defend/dodge.

[burgerkingdiamond]

I think the question should be aimed bullets (raiden/old school style) or patterned bullets (danmaku). That is the main distinction as far as I'm concerned. It's what makes taking some Raiden II runs so frustrating after playing nothing but CAVE for awhile. It feels fucking personal when some tank comes up from the side of the screen in Raiden II and just snipes me out of nowhere. Pisses me off way more than dying in any CAVE game.

[BIL]

It feels fucking personal when some tank comes up from the side of the screen in Raiden II and just snipes me out of nowhere.

QFT. That's the distilled essence of the original Raiden games. A moment's distraction and

BOOM!

"Fuckin' sniper tank!!"