XRGB-3

[kamiboy]

According to your first post this happened one day unprovoked. That is really not the typical profile of a software failure. I don't think firmware engineers design new updates with the constant thought of what might happen if an older firmware is applied on top of a newer one. In that sense it is generally not a very good idea to downgrade. That being said a sudden failure is more likely hardware related.

[kamiboy]

I went with the XRGB-3 as I wanted pixel resize scaling (B0). B1 mode (similar to the XRGB-2+) CAN be much tricker to get a stable image. On the XRGB-3 in B1, the single most important setting for a stable image is the AFC Level adjustment. I've only used the XRGB-3, so I can only share my experiences in respect to that. Getting clean stable video from B1 mode varies from platform to platform, and the particulars of cable construction, and in some cases, the revision of console. Once you get everything fine tuned, it'll all be worthwhile, as there's nothing quite like playing with real hardware!

Well aint that a merry old kick to the balls, and here I went with the XRGB-2+ because it was supposed to just work, also it was cheaper. Well, my options right now, it seems, are to either ditch the XRGB-2+ and see about getting a XRGB-3, or see about getting something to clean up that funky VGA signal somehow.

Both routes come at high costs, much delay and no guarantees, what to do...

Also, as far as playing SotN via PS3... the PS3 DOES NOT OUTPUT 240p video, regardless of using component or RGB output. The lowest resolution from the PS3 is 480i, not 240p, so scanlines will not work. Scanlines are for 240p. If you were to use a PS1 or PS2, SotN will output at 240p. Playing PS1 games on the PS3 is usefull when you'd like to scale the game to your flat panel's native resolution. This is equivalent of using the XRGB-3 in B0 mode with PS1 or PS2 hardware. Hope this is usefull info for you.

Hold on a tick, you mean to tell me that SoTN is actually a 240p game? I thought most PSX games were 480i? And why wouldn't scanlines work with 480i? Isn't Panzer Dragoon for the Saturn a 480i title like most 32 bit games? That looks fantastic with scanlines if it weren't for the unstable image.

[Fudoh]

Hold on a tick, you mean to tell me that SoTN is actually a 240p game? I thought most PSX games were 480i?

95%+ are 240p. The Tobal games are 480i, but other than that nothing jumps to mind...

And why wouldn't scanlines work with 480i?

because you wouldn't get typical 240p scanlines on a CRT with 480i either and the XRGB just simulates a CRT image.

Isn't Panzer Dragoon for the Saturn a 480i title like most 32 bit games? That looks fantastic with scanlines if it weren't for the unstable image.

Panzer Dragoon is 240p.

Fudoh, can you save my arse again, or is that tattered thing a lost cause?

too many posibilites and unfortunately the Vizio displays (you got one, right?) are US-only, so I can't help you with that. Of course you can add an RGB interface to the XRGB's output and hope for the TV to deliver, but as you said yourself: there's no guarantee.

[kamiboy]

too many posibilites and unfortunately the Vizio displays (you got one, right?) are US-only, so I can't help you with that. Of course you can add an RGB interface to the XRGB's output and hope for the TV to deliver, but as you said yourself: there's no guarantee.

Vizio? Oh, no. No, no, no. No not at all no. The label on the back of TV says made in Japan, and the very worst it could be expected to say is Korea, which hasn't happened yet.

My panel is a Limited Edition Sharp LC52XS1. It is a super, duper expensive concept model that features coloured dimming backlight. The price, over 10000 ducats MSRP was too rich for the plebeians and so they ended up pickling in dealer storage houses. So a year or so after release, if you were frugal like me, you could pick one up for a fraction of the initial price.

I was looking for a local dimming model at that time because my SONY TV at the time was horribly inadequate in dark environments and it came down to the SONY 55XBR8 or this. In the end the lower price and the fact that this was more than 5 times thinner than the SONY won out.

I am sure the SONY had much better processing and a better dimming algorithm to boot, but its unsightly thick profile put me off.

But enough of that, I doubt any setting on the TV will remedy the problem. It has a option for the PC input where it will try and optimize for best picture and that does nothing to solve the shaking.

Your experience with image processing hardware is vast, tapping into that could you at least point me to the most obvious location?

You think the XRGB-3's LPF settings might do the trick? Some cheap Lenkeng like device that does scaling of VGA tolerably well? Or should I start looking at stuff like the DVDO edge?

I changed the VGA cables going between my TV and the XRGB to some that look thick and shielded, this did nothing. Since the CRT shows a very good and stable picture from the same signal then it must simply be my LCD having a crappy VGA input. I have nothing else with a VGA output to confirm this, but logic states that the fault lies with the display source.

So all I need is to find something that has a proven track record with VGA processing. Something digital so that there is no room for error between it and my display. Just a simple device to take VGA in and output an HDMI signal, even without scaling would do the trick. My television does a fine job with scaling via any other input but the VGA apparently.

As I said, S-video looks great from older consoles, and the HDMI inputs, wither they get 480p, 720p or 1080p look stellar.

EDIT:

this seems to be the ticket:

LKV351

A Lenkeng product I believe.

[Fudoh]

Vizio? Oh, no. No, no, no.

sorry, someone recently asked for the XRGB's performance on a Vizio LCD set and I thought this was you.

You think the XRGB-3's LPF settings might do the trick?

no, definitely not. The XRGB-3's LPF setting is input processing and this definitely looks like an ouput compatibility problem.

Just a simple device to take VGA in and output an HDMI signal, even without scaling would do the trick.

give it a try then. There are many VGA to HDMI devices on eBay to choose from.

Have you tried the XRGB-2 on any other LCD display ? What kind of PC monitor do you have ? Neighbours ? Friends ?

[kamiboy]

Have you tried the XRGB-2 on any other LCD display ? What kind of PC monitor do you have ? Neighbours ? Friends ?

Nah, I am a mac guy, and I only deal with laptops, so the only other display I have in my house is that CRT.

I wish I could discreetly sneak that XRGB over to my workplace to test it with my work LCD monitor, alas.

give it a try then. There are many VGA to HDMI devices on eBay to choose from.

I was hoping you had come across one you could vouch for among them, if not I think I'll just give that model a try, at 60 ducats I think it is worth the risk.

[Endymion]

Also, as far as playing SotN via PS3... the PS3 DOES NOT OUTPUT 240p video, regardless of using component or RGB output. The lowest resolution from the PS3 is 480i, not 240p, so scanlines will not work.

And additionally, a PS3 connected via HDMI will never output less than 480p.

[kamiboy]

because you wouldn't get typical 240p scanlines on a CRT with 480i either and the XRGB just simulates a CRT image.

No not typical 240p scanlines, but I should get 480i scanlines. They might not be as pronounced but anything low res on a CRT gives you visible scanlines. Hell even throwing a 480p VGA signal on the CRT monitor I can see scanlines from up close. Or perhaps I shouldnt call them that, but I call whatever black spacing there is between each line of visible graphic a scanline, wither it technically is or not.

I was expecting that the XRGB, for 480i content, to draw each field alternately spaced with black fake scanlines when using the option to fake them. Looking at the screen when it was displaying the PS3 that did not seem the case.

It was a very weird whatever it was doing and caused strange artifacts on the LCD TV, but, in contrast, looked absolutely great on the CRT.

Out of curiosity what does the XRGB do with a 480i signal? Does it just line double it like with 240p content but instead of drawing each line of each frame exactly in the same place it should alternate the odd and even fields by one line, but I don't think it does that, or maybe it does, hard to tell.

[Xenogias]

Anyone know if the RGBs HD15 D2 input on the XRGB3 is just a straight passthrough or if I can get it to linedouble/scandouble? I am having an issue because I have an XSelect and wanted to do component out directly to the TV from xselect and VGA out into the XRGB-3, but the xrgb seems to want to just pass through the 15khz signal which my tv cannot display. PS this only affects B1 mode.

The D2 RGB input functions similar to the GAME input, but provides more sync configs (H&V, S, and Cv), and processes the RGB signals a little different. I prefer the D2 HD15 input for my Super Gun as it provides cleaner processing than the GAME input for one reason or another. There is an additional input that serves as a passthrough - PC IN:


The PC IN input is a DVI-I connection, so you can use a DVI to VGA adapter or cable.

For the life of me I can't get the xrgb-3 D2 input to play nicely with my xselect RGB output... I assume you must set it to RGBHV since xselect is transcoding 240p material into 15khz signal... I might be able to whip up an HD15 to JRGB cable to test this on the game input but I'm afraid the xselect is sending a vga signal the xrgb doesn't like. Anyone with both of these boxes fancy testing this?

[ShutokouBattle]

Hold on a tick, you mean to tell me that SoTN is actually a 240p game? I thought most PSX games were 480i?

95%+ are 240p. The Tobal games are 480i, but other than that nothing jumps to mind...

I think one or both of the Bloody Roar games on PSX were 480i.

[Fudoh]

I might be able to whip up an HD15 to JRGB cable to test this on the game input

won't work since you can't set the GAME IN to seperate incoming sync signals. I'll take a few screenshots of my XSelect/XRGB combo's menus later today.

[BuckoA51]

Hello everyone and thank you for such great information on the XRGB upscalers!

I finally got my XRGB-3 from Solaris today after almost a month of waiting. However, I can't get the unit to turn on

I am in the UK so I know I need a stepdown converter, can anyone tell me if the one pictured below (that I am using) is suitable.



I connected the power adaptor into the stepdown and plugged the other end into the XRGB with no other cables connected but I could not get the unit to turn on (no power light)

I'd read this thread and the Wiki over and over and I am so gutted I can't use my XRGB-3 now it's finally turned up, please help!

Edit - Nevermind sorry, I went up into the attic and found another stepdown, this one rated for 60Watts, that worked. For anyone needing a Stepdown for their XRGB-3, use one rated for at least 60W

[Konsolkongen]

I think your stepdown was faulty. At 11V 2A the XRGB-3 shouldn't require more than 22W.

[kamiboy]

Strangest thing. Last night, after a lengthy session of Zombie chopping, I decided to hook up the old XRGB again to see if there was any remedy to be found. At the get go it was obvious that something had changed drastically. The image I was getting on my TV was much more stable. Not as stable as the one the CRT produced, but much, much better than before.

I hadn't changed any setting, but for some reason the results had changed drastically. The quality is bearable now. The occasional random noise shakes through the image, but I think I can live with it.

I was only able to test my 32bit systems properly. The SNES still looked god awful though, but that is no doubt most in owing to the composite cable, once those official RGB cables arrive I hope to have similar results across the board. The CDX I left I untested, I've returned the possibly faulty cables and now await replacement.

Is it possible that the faulty shorted SCART cable I connected to the XRGB caused it to misbehave? When I don't use my TV I cut the power to everything connected to it. So before this test everything had enjoyed many hours of respite, is it possible that did the trick?

[jugu]

I might be able to whip up an HD15 to JRGB cable to test this on the game input but I'm afraid the xselect is sending a vga signal the xrgb doesn't like. Anyone with both of these boxes fancy testing this?

I haven't encountered any issues with my Wii or PS2 connected via component to the Xselect-D4 which then runs HD15 to the XRGB-3. I did set the "D IN 2 Signal" under Options for the XRGB to RGBHV, otherwise I wouldn't get a picture.

I am having an issue with the Xbox 360 --> Extron Emotia --> Xselect-D4 --> XRGB-3. In this setup, the "Progressive" scan LED on the front of the Xselect-D4 blinks on and off and I'll will get a picture but not consistently. And when a picture does show up the picture lightens and then darkens in sync with the progressive LED on the front of the unit. Still trying to figure this out.

jugu

[speedlolita]

Hey guys, quick question. Is there anywhere with XRGB-2 Plus still available or am I only going to find one used?

[SGGG2]

Well that there is the reason why I keep my launch model PS3 around. I am even considering picking up one of the busted YLOD ones being sold locally, sending it in to SONY be repaired or swapped for a refurb launch model for $200 and keep it around as backup in case my own should bite the dust again.

Ugh. I just picked up a backwards compatible PS3 checha01 and the PS2 upscaling to 1080p is not good at all. I use GS Mode selector or HD Xploder to boot games into 480p -- The HD Box Pro does a better job upscaling than the PS3, and it doesn't even begin to compare to the quality of a X-Select/XRGB-3 combo.

[kamiboy]

Ugh. I just picked up a backwards compatible PS3 checha01 and the PS2 upscaling to 1080p is not good at all. I use GS Mode selector or HD Xploder to boot games into 480p -- The HD Box Pro does a better job upscaling than the PS3, and it doesn't even begin to compare to the quality of a X-Select/XRGB-3 combo.

Well that doesn't really apply to me, I chose to save about 200 and went with the XRGB-2+ over the 3. Mostly because I kept hearing that the 3 had very inadequate upscaling and I only wanted it for adding scanlines to 240p RGB sources. Honestly I have never had the opportunity to see what real good upscaling looks like and short of a side by side I am more and happy with what my PS3 puts out. Wither I choose to have it upscale to PS2 games to 1080p or just let it put 480p and let my TV do the scaling.

I already have 8 devices under my TV, with more forthcoming, you can imagine what the nightmare of cables behind this collection looks like, and I even tried my damnest to reduce clutter by using HDMI where possible. I am not really convinced of the advantages of adding a dedicated upscaler to the mix.

But in order to get a more stable picture from the XRGB onto my TV it looks like I may be forced to add something to the mix. It could either be a cheap dedicated VGA upscaler from eBay or go all out and get a DVDO edge. I'll have think about that one.

[SGGG2]

Gradius V @ 480p > X-Select > XRGB-3 in B0 @ 1080p

[Sargon]

I just hooked up my new XRGB-3 today and I have a few questions...

1) My LG 30FS4D direct view TV is known for "jittery" composite video, which is the primary reason that I purchased the XRGB-3. The best way I can explain the issue is that images on the screen become blurry for a short time and then return to normal. I thought for sure the XRGB-3 would resolve this issue, but I'm still seeing it with the 640x480 output resolution. I connected my NES to the XRGB-3 with a composite cable and tried outputting both VGA to component (through a 9A60 transcoder) and DVI to HDMI, but they both exhibit the same symptoms. The jittery video is not as noticeable as it was when the NES was connected directly to my TV's composite inputs, but it is still there in both B0 and B1 mode. Does anyone know what causes that type of effect on the picture and is there anything else I can do with the XRGB-3 to try to resolve it?

2) Continuing from my first question, I figured if I increased the output resolution it may eliminate the jittery video altogether if I could output my TV's native 1080i resolution in B0 mode. Unfortunately the only output resolution that my TV will display by either component or HDMI is 640x480. Every other resolution results in a "No Signal" message, even 1920x1080, which I thought was a standard HDTV resolution. Is there a difference between the 1920x1080 resolution that the XRGB-3 outputs versus a standard HDTV signal? Could it be that it is actually 1080p and my TV won't accept it since it is only a 1080i TV?

I would appreciate any feedback that you can provide on the above issues. Thanks!

[Endymion]

Unfortunately the only output resolution that my TV will display by either component or HDMI is 640x480. Every other resolution results in a "No Signal" message, even 1920x1080, which I thought was a standard HDTV resolution. Is there a difference between the 1920x1080 resolution that the XRGB-3 outputs versus a standard HDTV signal? Could it be that it is actually 1080p and my TV won't accept it since it is only a 1080i TV?

That is correct. 1920x1080 over VGA or DVI is ordinarily progressive and your CRT television is only going to be handling a resolution such as that interlaced. As with a lot of situations here you will find a great deal of the results you want may come from choosing to use a suitable screen,.

[Sargon]

Unfortunately the only output resolution that my TV will display by either component or HDMI is 640x480. Every other resolution results in a "No Signal" message, even 1920x1080, which I thought was a standard HDTV resolution. Is there a difference between the 1920x1080 resolution that the XRGB-3 outputs versus a standard HDTV signal? Could it be that it is actually 1080p and my TV won't accept it since it is only a 1080i TV?

That is correct. 1920x1080 over VGA or DVI is ordinarily progressive and your CRT television is only going to be handling a resolution such as that interlaced. As with a lot of situations here you will find a great deal of the results you want may come from choosing to use a suitable screen,.

That is what I was afraid of. Does anyone have experience with the Audio Authority 1366 PC/HD Scaler? It looks like that would solve my problem by scaling to any resolution that I need to output, but I'm hesitant to order one without knowing how much input lag it will add.

[Endymion]

I doubt it would do what you want. I've never seen a device made to scale to an interlaced resolution and it is a relatively rare want, I've just never seen anybody really desire upscaling from any resolution to "only" 1080i.

Alternatively, I have a (very) cheap transcoder which also upscales, and performs no deinterlacing or line doubling, meaning, if you feed it an interlaced resolution, it transcodes and upscales the image interlaced as well. But, it only outputs at 1600x1200 so it is unsuitable for your purposes here also. That it outputs any interlaced image at all is kind of an accident, as its designers seem to have intended it only for use with progressive inputs.

I know how it is to hope, and you could always quiz AA if their box will create a 1080i signal, but I just really doubt that it will as the product page doesn't explicitly say this.

[Fudoh]

Is there a difference between the 1920x1080 resolution that the XRGB-3 outputs versus a standard HDTV signal? Could it be that it is actually 1080p and my TV won't accept it since it is only a 1080i TV?

as mentioned before your TV will only accept 1080i, not 1080p. In addition is the XRGB's 1080p signal is not very compatible, so many 1080p LCDs also can't handle it, despite the matching resolution.

Whatever you see on your tube is likely caused by the digital processing of the input signal.

[Fudoh]

I've never seen a device made to scale to an interlaced resolution and it is a relatively rare want, I've just never seen anybody really desire upscaling from any resolution to "only" 1080i.

quite on the contrary. Only a few years ago (let's say up to 2007) 1080i was one of the prefered output resolution for most video processors...

[Sargon]

I know how it is to hope, and you could always quiz AA if their box will create a 1080i signal, but I just really doubt that it will as the product page doesn't explicitly say this.

According to the user manual, the Audio Authority 1366 will output anything between 480i and 1080p. I just don't know at what expense that scaling is going to come. If it is going to insert another 2-3 frames of input lag, then it probably isn't worth it.

Output Resolutions

VGA 640x480 RGBHV 60Hz
SVGA 800x600 RGBHV 60Hz
XGA 1024x768 RGBHV 60Hz
WXGA 1280x768 RGBHV 60Hz
WXGA+ 1440x900 RGBHV 60Hz
SXGA 1280x1024 RGBHV 60Hz
SXGA+ 1400x1050 RGBHV 60Hz
WSXGA 1680x1050 RGBHV 60Hz
UXGA 1600x1200 RGBHV 60Hz
WUXGA 1920x1200 RGBHV 60Hz
480i 720x480 NTSC YPbPr 60Hz
576i 720x576 PAL YPbPr 50Hz
1080i 1920x1080 YPbPr 50, 60Hz
480p 720x480 YPbPr 60Hz
576p 720x576 YPbPr 50Hz
720p 1280x720 YPbPr 50, 60Hz
1080p 1920x1080 YPbPr 50, 60Hz

[Endymion]

According to the user manual, the Audio Authority 1366 will output anything between 480i and 1080p. I just don't know at what expense that scaling is going to come. If it is going to insert another 2-3 frames of input lag, then it probably isn't worth it.

Getting things to work for you would be worth it, but yes, at that kind of a rate you would be no better off than using a newer flat screen HDTV. Does your TV have VGA input?

[kamiboy]

[Gradius V @ 480p > X-Select > XRGB-3 in B0 @ 1080p

I don't have that game so I have no frame of reference. I did throw on Metal Gear Solid 2 and Silent Hill 2 on my PS3 just now to feel things out. There was no difference I could pinpoint between letting the PS3 scale to 1080p or letting it put out 480p and allowing my TV to do the rest.

The results were quite good regardless. I mean, these are low res 3D game we are talking about here, I am not so sure there is even any point in putting a lot of thought into how they are upscaled. I tried to take some shots of MGS2, and one shot of SH2. They didn't come out very well for the most part, but here they are never the less.

Maybe you could take some shots in those two games, or something that I can throw onto my setup as well so I can see what you are talking about. Or maybe just tell me in words what the general problem with PS3 upscaling is? Is it that the end result is blurry?

Regardless of this, before I can even begin to think about such small details there is the issue of the shaky picture my LCD is pulling out of the XRGB. Currently that is worlds worse than something as a little bad scaling.

EDIT:
I thought of something, my Denon receiver has a FLI2200 chip inside it which it uses for upscaling. I could try to let my PS3 put out 480i via component cables and see how the FLI2200 handles upscaling. It is supposed to be a pretty good upscaling chip.

[RGB32E]

According to the user manual, the Audio Authority 1366 will output anything between 480i and 1080p. I just don't know at what expense that scaling is going to come. If it is going to insert another 2-3 frames of input lag, then it probably isn't worth it.

Getting things to work for you would be worth it, but yes, at that kind of a rate you would be no better off than using a newer flat screen HDTV. Does your TV have VGA input?

Speaking of which, did your PF20U ever arrive? Did you ever pick up a XRGB-3?

[Sargon]

According to the user manual, the Audio Authority 1366 will output anything between 480i and 1080p. I just don't know at what expense that scaling is going to come. If it is going to insert another 2-3 frames of input lag, then it probably isn't worth it.

Getting things to work for you would be worth it, but yes, at that kind of a rate you would be no better off than using a newer flat screen HDTV. Does your TV have VGA input?

No it doesn't, which is why I'm going the VGA to Component route.