Will the real Dracula please stand up?

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Skykid
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Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by Skykid »

You can't imagine the lolz I had tonight. I just finished reading Bram Stoker's original Dracula, a brilliant work of horror and fantasy fiction, and then I just browsed Youtube for a clip of Francis Ford Coppola's movie because I couldn't remember a thing about it.
I kind of had it in my head that I'd watch the movie, despite remembering it being poorly received, when I'd done with the book.

Then I found this clip and couldn't stop laughing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfY3ewjD ... re=related

It's absolutely ridiculous? What the hell is going on in this scene?!

I just finished a book about a horrific and terrifying creature plaguing people over centuries by preying on them in the night, a shape-shifting beast that's so ghastly he was hunted to the bitter end by a group of stalwart heroes - then I check out this scene and he's basically making whoopee with Mina Harker? WTF? :lol:

This got me thinking. Bram Stoker probably never realised the legacy he left behind, but how the hell did they romanticise such a foul creation to the degree we see today? These days everything is vampire, it's just too cool. We've even got nice vampires who only suck on necks to survive and fight 'bad' vampires.
But in 120 years, no fucker has managed to make a film or programme that actually accurately adapts the book at all!

That's a feat of unbelievable magnitude!
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by TrevHead (TVR) »

I really should read the book myself aswell as mary shelly's Frankenstein
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by Acid King »

I don't know why you're so surprised. I doubt you can find many discussions of the book that don't mention sexuality and lust as major themes.
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by Skykid »

Acid King wrote:I don't know why you're so surprised. I doubt you can find many discussions of the book that don't mention sexuality and lust as major themes.
Only surprised that as it's called 'Bram Stoker's Dracula' I expected to see an adaptation of the book. It clearly has absolutely nothing to do with the book and it's completely offensive to call it 'Bram Stoker's' when it's not at all what he wrote.

The more I think about it, the more horribly distasteful that seems, especially as it's a great piece of work. Trust some moneyspinning Hollywood nob jockey's to just think "Ah the guy's dead, we'll just use his name and pretend like he wrote it that way."

:roll:
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by Acid King »

Skykid wrote:
Only surprised that as it's called 'Bram Stoker's Dracula' I expected to see an adaptation of the book. It clearly has absolutely nothing to do with the book and it's completely offensive to call it 'Bram Stoker's' when it's not at all what he wrote.

The more I think about it, the more horribly distasteful that seems, especially as it's a great piece of work. Trust some moneyspinning Hollywood nob jockey's to just think "Ah the guy's dead, we'll just use his name and pretend like he wrote it that way."

:roll:
And you gleaned all that from one 7 minute clip of the movie? Not to say that it's altogether true to the novel, but atleast watch the fucking movie before you go shitting all over it.
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by Skykid »

Acid King wrote:
Skykid wrote:
Only surprised that as it's called 'Bram Stoker's Dracula' I expected to see an adaptation of the book. It clearly has absolutely nothing to do with the book and it's completely offensive to call it 'Bram Stoker's' when it's not at all what he wrote.

The more I think about it, the more horribly distasteful that seems, especially as it's a great piece of work. Trust some moneyspinning Hollywood nob jockey's to just think "Ah the guy's dead, we'll just use his name and pretend like he wrote it that way."

:roll:
And you gleaned all that from one 7 minute clip of the movie? Not to say that it's altogether true to the novel, but atleast watch the fucking movie before you go shitting all over it.
Uh, I just finished 1,700 pages of ipod book, if I check out a 7 minute clip of the movie and see Dracula sucking Mina's tits I'm perfectly within my rights to shit on it from a great height.

And I will, and it will deserve all the shit it gets.

Getting a rewind:
Acid King wrote:I don't know why you're so surprised. I doubt you can find many discussions of the book that don't mention sexuality and lust as major themes.
Just re-assessing the point of this sentence, it seems that should I seek in-depth analyses of the book, I'll likely find sex and lust being pinpointed as major themes?

How is this possible? Sex and lust aren't major themes in the book at all. In fact, only Lucy Westenra is a figure of sexuality for the brief period that she exists within the book. But sex and lust only go so far as describing her as a voluptuous woman with several suitors - but even that is portrayed as periphery to her character, who centrally acts as a catalyst for the discovery of Dracula in London.

As far as I understand from some google research, in Coppola's movie Dracula comes to London, turns into a giant wolf, and fucks Lucy over a fountain in her garden. :|


Seeking the discussion of which you speak, I found Sparknotes.com's essays. There are two females in the book, one is Lucy, one is Mina. Forget Lucy's mum cos she's old and cobwebbed and not very sexual.

Sparknotes character analysis writes of Mina:
Mina’s sexuality remains enigmatic throughout the whole of Dracula. Though she marries, she never gives voice to anything resembling a sexual desire or impulse, which enables her to retain her purity. Indeed, the entire second half of the novel concerns the issue of Mina’s purity. Stoker creates suspense about whether Mina, like Lucy, will be lost. Given that Dracula means to use women to access the men of England, Mina’s loss could have terrifying repercussions.
So she's pretty much a-sexual throughout.

Lucy:
In many ways, Lucy is much like her dear friend Mina. She is a paragon of virtue and innocence, qualities that draw not one but three suitors to her. Lucy differs from her friend in one crucial aspect, however—she is sexualized. Lucy’s physical beauty captivates each of her suitors, and she displays a comfort or playfulness about her desirability that Mina never feels. In an early letter to Mina, Lucy laments, “Why can’t they let a girl marry three men, or as many as want her, and save all this trouble?”
But in truth, Lucy being 'sexualised' is a fairly broad interpretation. You can read into it as you will, but Stoker simply describes her beauty many times in a descriptive fashion, and a visage that is at painful odds to her changing into an undead creature.

Apart from Lucy we have an uptight lawyer's wife, four blokes and an old crackpot doctor, a monster that lives in a Carpathian castle and sucks blood to survive and a looney patient.

To suggest that themes of lust and sex are central to the book's themes is absurb - it's just not the case.

I know, because I just read it.
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by iluvmonsterz »

the movie is amazing for what it is...turn off the dialoge watch the pretty pictures and skip every scene with keanu in it. is it the book? no. is it shit? not by a long shot. sometimes you have to veiw a particular item without preconceived notions to appreciate it. dracula as a scene for scene literary to theatrical translation? loosing the images stoker had us come up with in our own heads? now that woulda been a turd of a movie.

P>S> i feel that vampires have become some kinda alternative religion for some of these doey eyed pansy assholes, they think "oh i can suck blood,be sexy and live forever! thats way better than going to heaven and sooooo much easier." vampires are supposed to be monstrous and horrible...for fucks sake!
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by Skykid »

iluvmonsterz wrote: P>S> i feel that vampires have become some kinda alternative religion for some of these doey eyed pansy assholes, they think "oh i can suck blood,be sexy and live forever! thats way better than going to heaven and sooooo much easier." vampires are supposed to be monstrous and horrible...for fucks sake!
Yes, and to be honest, while I agree with the above statement, I don't agree a straight adaptation of the book would be boring at all. He's a fiend, a horror to be feared - not a cursed man to be pitied. It's a tale of prey and threat - and yes, if you want to view Stoker's Dracula as a sexual entity - the undertones of neck biting, blood sucking, and coming in at night to prey on sleeping women all being valid argument - you can do (I'm sure in Victorian England the notion of such things was considerably taboo).

But it's not primarily a story of lust or sex - it's a story about a horrible undead beast.

I don't mind watching the movie. I probably will. Gary Oldman is terrific, and I'm sure he's terrific as Dracula - it's just a shame he couldn't find his way into a more credible telling of the story instead of some nonsensical 'love story' version ffs. :roll:
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by Zeether »

When I saw the name Mina I thought this thread had turned into a discussion about Dance in the Vampire Bund.
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by Observer »

You might wanna check Nosferatu. Now that's the real, freaking scary monster you are looking for. Although if you are not fond of the first movies (Nosferatu is from 1922), you will end up laughing... But it's amazing what these guys could do with make up, an orchestra providing the sound effects and the brutal and baroque scenery typical of those years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcyzubFvBsA

There is something really unnerving with the low fps movement of the old movies that makes them even greater.

Also, Stephen King did a poor attempt at vampires with Salem's Lot but the book was so-so and I didn't watch the movie but seems they changed a lot of things, not as many as The Running Man (where I can say the movie was, by far, ages better than the boring book! Arnie "Governator"'s acting and one liners destroyed everything else, lol, it's almost like a premonition of Total Recall) but still quite a lot.
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by KindGrind »

I'm a great fan of the book and had the chance to study it years ago, and I'm definitely with Skykid here. I've watched the movie about 4-5 times, the last one quite recently after talking with a good friend of mine who truly enjoys it. When asked "Why do you like it?", he went on saying that the movie was very moody, rich with color, moving music and nuances. He lent me his blu-ray and I despite all my good faith I still found it very subpar.

I think nothing's untouchable. I'm not against adaptations from revered sources at all. Dune, for example, is one example of a perfectly fine adaptation, in which I feel Lynch captured the mood of the book while taking liberties here and there. Some Dune fans truly hate it, but I found it very apt. This is pretty much the same for Dracula; some will always defend the movie tooth and nail, and others will just say it's plain bad. It's a matter of taste.

Edit: If you go down the Nosferatu route, Herzog's take on it form the late 70's is pretty good, too. Quite over the top, though. :)
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by Acid King »

Skykid wrote:
Uh, I just finished 1,700 pages of ipod book, if I check out a 7 minute clip of the movie and see Dracula sucking Mina's tits I'm perfectly within my rights to shit on it from a great height.
Classic Skykid.

As for the sexual themes of the book, Novelguide.com says
"Dracula is usually seen as a novel about suppressed sexuality, especially female sexuality, for which vampirism is a metaphor. Four of the five women characters are vampires, and their sexual aggressiveness and insatiability are presented as men's secret fantasy and greatest nightmare. Lucy's transformation from respectable Victorian lady to voracious sexual predator is a cautionary tale warning us of the threat that the Count, through his sexual prowess, presents to civilized society. Such women prey upon innocent children (Lucy and the vampire women both do this) and seduce and drain men, driving them from their reason through their power of arousing sexual desire. Sexuality is only safe when it is monogamous, low-key and sanctified by the production of children within marriage, as represented by Mina before her corruption by the Count and after she is 'cured' of vampirism by his destruction. It is remarkable that Harker has far more sexual interaction with the vampire women in one short scene than with his wife in the entire novel. "
I punched Dracula and sex into academic search premier and JSTOR and came up with the following article titles.

"Productive Fear: Labor, Sexuality, and Mimicry in Bram Stoker's Dracula"
"Transcending The Virgin/Whore Dichotomy: Telling Mina's Story in Bram Stoker's Dracula."
"(Un)safe Sex: Romancing the Vampire."
"Repossessing the body: Transgressive desire in `Carmilla' and Dracula."
"A Vampire in the Mirror: The Sexuality of Dracula"
"Feminism, Sex Role Exchanges, and Other Subliminal Fantasies in Bram Stoker's "Dracula""

That's without looking at citations within the articles or wading through the other few hundred results. I don't know how you aren't aware of well known interpretation of novel as a sexual metaphor. Saying it's just about an undead monster is like suggesting Animal Farm is just about talking animals.
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by evil_ash_xero »

All I remember about that movie was Gary Oldman, some pretty scenes, a werewolf humping a girl, and Keanu Reeves being really out of place.

I really don't like vampire movies much. I like stuff like Fright Night, more than the the "classic" type.

Oh, and if you thought this adaption of a classic novel was wonky, watch Mary Shelly's Frankenstein.
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by Acid King »

evil_ash_xero wrote:All I remember about that movie was Gary Oldman, some pretty scenes, a werewolf humping a girl, and Keanu Reeves being really out of place.
Keanu Reeves and Winona Ryder were pretty bad casting choices. The opening scene is great though.
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by ROBOTRON »

I guess I have NO TASTE when it comes to Dracula movies. I think Fright Night's Dracula and Van Helsing's Draucla were the greatest portrayals of the creature ever put to film. :roll:
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

Murnau's Nosferatu is terrific indeed and it's a quite faithful adaptation of Dracula. The monster's appearance (looks and behaviour) resembles an arahnid (spider or tick) somehow and it's not laughable at all (even though the actor's supposed second name sounds like a joke and no-one really knows who he was). He's got the traits of a predator and a parasite alike.
Herzog's remake sports that awesome Popol Vuh tunes and that's about it. Also, Isabelle Adjani.
Coppola's film is downright tacky. Maybe it looks better in the cinema, but I don't think much about its production values. Even Gary Oldman didn't save the lot.
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

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Observer wrote:not as many as The Running Man (where I can say the movie was, by far, ages better than the boring book! Arnie "Governator"'s acting and one liners destroyed everything else, lol, it's almost like a premonition of Total Recall) but still quite a lot.
:shock: I'm speechless...... I can't believe you actually said that. The Running Man is one of the best sci-fi books I've ever read, a knockout. It knocked the film into the stratosphere, it was incredible. For fear of thread derailment I'll leave it there, but I had to read what you wrote three times to make sure I wasn't seeing it backward.

(Nosferatu is very good btw, watching a bit of it now. I like the old classic stuff. Dunno wtf you're talking about with the Running Man book tho.)
ROBOTRON wrote:I guess I have NO TASTE when it comes to Dracula movies. I think Fright Night's Dracula and Val Helsing's Draucla were the greatest portrayals of the creature ever put to film. :roll:
Fright Night rules. :)
Acid King wrote: That's without looking at citations within the articles or wading through the other few hundred results. I don't know how you aren't aware of well known interpretation of novel as a sexual metaphor. Saying it's just about an undead monster is like suggesting Animal Farm is just about talking animals.
I'm not well aware of the novel being a sexual metaphor, and funnily enough, it didn't leap out at me while I was reading it either. I am aware of how Vampirism has been sexualised commercially and it makes me wonder how much this affects the analyses of a book written in the late seventeenth century.

Let's not be pithy, Animal Farm wears it's subtext completely on its sleeve. The sexual subtext of Dracula simply does not. Stoker writes in a very simple, straightforward manner. His only actual descriptions of sexuality are fairly restrained to commenting on the beauty of someone, or someone's attractiveness. For the time the book was written, the female vampires are very racy, and Harker has an incredible attraction to them he can barely tear himself away from - but Stoker doesn't write that in underlying narrative, just that they're voluptuous and wanton and spellbinding.

Now, being fair to studies made of the book, the premise of a beast flying in through the window to prey on sleeping women could admittedly be seen as taboo and sexual by way of perversion of social values considering the time in which the book was written. I would agree that taboo, and the beauty of the vampire women being desirable and perhaps lustful (while also being pure evil) is something to go on for someone looking to pry a subtext out of the novel. It's worth keeping in mind it doesn't take them too long to get over the fact the chicks look pretty and peaceful lying in their tombs before they shove a stake through their heart, saw their head off and stuff garlic in the mouth.
I suppose that's a metaphor for male dominance in victorian England, suppressing women's rights to sexual freedom by force (see, I can do it too.)

But:
"Dracula is usually seen as a novel about suppressed sexuality, especially female sexuality, for which vampirism is a metaphor. Four of the five women characters are vampires, and their sexual aggressiveness and insatiability are presented as men's secret fantasy and greatest nightmare.
Lucy's transformation from respectable Victorian lady to voracious sexual predator is a cautionary tale warning us of the threat that the Count, through his sexual prowess, presents to civilized society. Such women prey upon innocent children (Lucy and the vampire women both do this) and seduce and drain men, driving them from their reason through their power of arousing sexual desire. Sexuality is only safe when it is monogamous, low-key and sanctified by the production of children within marriage, as represented by Mina before her corruption by the Count and after she is 'cured' of vampirism by his destruction. It is remarkable that Harker has far more sexual interaction with the vampire women in one short scene than with his wife in the entire novel. "
All that steamy, heady sexuality swimming beneath the surface? :| The Counts "Sexual Prowess", and Lucy's transformation into a "Voracious sexual predator."

It's a bit much. It's a shame no-one actually asked Stoker if his book about an ancient, waxen, undead blood drinking monster threatening the women of London was actually softcore porn literature.
Stoker might have said he'd written the count and vampirism as a taboo and metaphorical perhaps of the breaking of strict social values at the time, but it's a story nonetheless.

Stoker had a history in theatre and dramatisation of plays before he wrote the book. All of this ridiculous essay writing:
"Productive Fear: Labor, Sexuality, and Mimicry in Bram Stoker's Dracula"
"Transcending The Virgin/Whore Dichotomy: Telling Mina's Story in Bram Stoker's Dracula."
"(Un)safe Sex: Romancing the Vampire."
"Repossessing the body: Transgressive desire in `Carmilla' and Dracula."
"A Vampire in the Mirror: The Sexuality of Dracula"
"Feminism, Sex Role Exchanges, and Other Subliminal Fantasies in Bram Stoker's "Dracula""
- smacks firmly of people writing for an audience who are clearly obsessed with the commercial link between Vampirism and sexuality.

For me, the hellishness of the book and the straightforwardness of the heroes plight to destroy Dracula was as fresh a telling of the story I'd ever heard. Just weird I had to go back to the source to find it.
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by Observer »

Skykid> Don't mind me about The Running Man. It's not the book itself but the terrible work done by the translators that made it so boring (and after seeing the movie in english without subtitles, I had a lot of fun listening to Arnie's terrible one liners) and almost makes me hate it. I think it's been translated several times, using spanish from Spain and a "neutered" version of the Latin American spanish. Both have many, many problems that damage the reading experience.

This also happens with several other King books (Hearts in Atlantis suffered a huge title change, corrected with a recent version, and other poor choices). I always forget when I talk about books that I'm reading most of them in my own language :P A lot is lost in translation...

Back to the count, consider reading Hellsing by Kouta Hirano? It's Dracula heavy on acid and other surrealistic stuff.
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by terry330 »

I have to agree that the film should not have been titled Bram Stoker's Dracula. It really is quite a seperate entity from the book and I would have though Coppola would have left the authors name out of the title.

But I do have to say I enjoy the movie quite a bit. Yes it is exremely flawed and most of the casting is terrible aside from Gary Oldman. I have to give it credit though as it is one of the last big special effects movies at the time just before CG came in and started shitting all over everything. The practical and optical effects back in the day were fantastic and it's easy to see the workmanship and ingenuity that went into alot them.
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by dan76 »

I agree - Coppola's Dracula now has some charm because of the lack of CGI. You can really see Coppola's theatrical lighting techniques in use, some nice opticals and old fashioned effects.

Also, Herzog's Nosferatu comes off much better in the German version. When it was filmed they shot english and german takes, so the actors aren't dubbed - they essentially made two versions of the same film. It also has a few weird little shots inserted, some slight alterations that make a difference. I'd put it at the top of the pile (along with the original) when compared to the book.

Films seem to have a problem with vampires in general - I don't think the book will ever be cracked, certainly not by a hollywood movie. Vampires are popular now because of those awful tv shows etc. It's like a franchise that can be applied to anything.
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by cools »

Hmm. I really didn't enjoy the novel. As a literary achievement it's excellent. It just didn't transport my imagination into the world it portrayed.
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by Jon »

No mention of Tom Waits as Renfield? :(
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by jochen »

An interesting and not well known ( but in my opinion good ) Dracula version:

Count Dracula, TV-film from the BBC , 1977 with Louis Jourdan as the Count.
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by E. Randy Dupre »

Observer wrote:You might wanna check Nosferatu. Now that's the real, freaking scary monster you are looking for. Although if you are not fond of the first movies (Nosferatu is from 1922), you will end up laughing... But it's amazing what these guys could do with make up, an orchestra providing the sound effects and the brutal and baroque scenery typical of those years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcyzubFvBsA

There is something really unnerving with the low fps movement of the old movies that makes them even greater.
I'd also suggest Vampyr, which is both atmospheric and pretty fucked up. It got an awesome DVD release over here as part of Eureka's Masters of Cinema range and it's currently just under a tenner on Amazon and Play. Same with Nosferatu, actually, now that I think about it.
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by E. Randy Dupre »

Oh! And if you want some idea as to how the character of Dracula got turned into all those different characters, the Fortean Times recently published a pretty good article on just that subject, which they've got up on their website here:

http://www.forteantimes.com/features/ar ... acula.html
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by PC Engine Fan X! »

Another cool indie vampire flick to watch is "God of Vampires" since it was finally finished in 2007. I did get to see it once in it's entirety at the 2007 Shockerfest indie horror/sci-fi film expo. There was a cool Q&A session with the film director afterwards. He said that principle shooting was first started back in 2000 but would run into money problems. After getting some more funds to restart filming again, he'd do so until it's final completion in 2007.

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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by moozooh »

I read Stoker's Dracula untranslated about six years ago just to see if it really was as good as it was suggested to be, and thought it was excruciatingly boring, dragged on beyond any measure, and had one of the most unimaginative final scene in the history of horror. Seriously, the scene was that bad.

I don't really like Lovecraft, but when it comes to building up atmosphere and coming up with something that is genuinely horrific and disgusting, he's the man to come to.

In terms of film adaptations, I've always been a fan of Polanski's early movie, at least it had some good humor.
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by Skykid »

cools wrote:Hmm. I really didn't enjoy the novel. As a literary achievement it's excellent. It just didn't transport my imagination into the world it portrayed.
I can see that, as it's written in journal format it lacks certain descriptive elements. But I couldn't put it down, and some of it was terrific (Renfield's character and especially the captains journal of the Russian ship were two nice highlights that spring to mind.)
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ChurchOfSolipsism
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by ChurchOfSolipsism »

Skykid... Bram Stoker wrote Dracula in the 1890s, not in the late 17th century...

I, too, thought the book was boring and not very imaginative (always keeping in mind that Stoker was, well, not the last, but certainly not the first in a long line of vampire novels). Not a big friend of Victorian literature in general, but this one was especially uninteresting. What exactly did you like about its aesthetics, Skykid? (& note this is an honest question)
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Acid King
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Re: Will the real Dracula please stand up?

Post by Acid King »

All this talk of vampire movies and not one mention of Shadow of the Vampire? Shameful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyBt5DDFcQY
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