Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

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PsychoGun
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by PsychoGun »

Obiwanshinobi wrote:
evil_ash_xero wrote:Other than Cave's or Treasure's in the 9 or so years, nobody else has put out something that's going to grab you by the throat.
That's funny, the only Cave game from that period I played that REALLY impressed me (nearly as much as Metal Slug back in the day) would be Ibara (which I suck at and am not even sure if I like it).
Zanac X Zanac (2001), on the other hand, is one puzzling phenomenon. Not just Zanac Neo, but Zanac Special Version too. I mean, whether you like it or not, you have to wonder why it's not endowed with the sacred aureole à la Ikaruga and Rez. Were people this fed up with 2D, Compile or the PSX when it came out?
Zanac x Zanac is incredible. Just the presentation alone is awesome.

And I think it does have that aura, when it sells for around 150 bucks for a complete copy.
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by Lok »

captpain wrote:
Lok wrote:I thought it was because it's the most recognizable among the readers of those reviewers. When I bought Raiden IV, the employees asked me what the game was about (shocking, I know). I mentioned it was sorta like 1944 and Giga Wing. After receiving blank looks, I said Ikaruga and then they knew what it was. Same thing with Touhou. Whenever I go to an Anime con and play Mushi Futari, Death Smiles, etc., the main question I am asked is if what I'm playing a new Touhou game.

But it all boils down to reviewers in general. They write for the mainstream and it just so happens that our beloved genre is out of the limelight.

Where were you? I can't imagine working at a games store and not knowing what the Raiden franchise is about. Weird.
Gamestop. Yeah I was pretty baffled myself as Raiden is one the games I mention when trying to describe shmups to people.
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by crackfox »

I do quite like Ikaruga but i have 2 problems with it..
1. I am not very good at it...
2. it doesn't feel frantic enough... i dont get that rush of excitement that i get when playing a lot of other shmups
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by Blade »

If Ikaruga had a stage editor or music stage generator like Space Invaders Infinity Gene, I think people would complain less.

But other than that, I still think Microsoft is feeding Sega $$$ to keep it exclusive. And the fact it's a rare breed of shmup is meant to be kept rare so that people actually buy it in all its limited incarnations (then it no longer becomes rare if it became nonexclusive).

Once the tab runs out, it'll show up on PSN (probably by the time PS4 comes out or XBox 720 or something) lol
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by Dodger »

I like the game, even though it totally kicks my ass! It must have been revolutionary when it first came out. I mean, its fun and has awesome music...but it doesn't hold a candle to the recent Cave shooters that I have. I still rock it though...trying to log those 9 hours for unlimited continues :wink:
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by undamned »

Lok wrote:
captpain wrote:Where were you? I can't imagine working at a games store and not knowing what the Raiden franchise is about. Weird.
Gamestop. Yeah I was pretty baffled myself as Raiden is one the games I mention when trying to describe shmups to people.
Haha, this popped up in my mind when I started trudging through the thread :D Ikaruga really kinda is today's Raiden, as far as vertical shmup name-dropping goes. I see it like if some casual gamer asked "Hey, what's a good shooter to check out?" any other casual gamer would probably recommend Ikaruga because it looks great, plays solid, and is easily accessible via download. Sure there are plenty of other great shooters from previous gens, but folks can't be bothered to dig out their old systems or go out and buy one for a specific title recommended to them.

Essentially, Ikaruga is the sensible shmup recommendation from one casual/next-gen gamer to another. Now, why can't it be like Super Mario Bros. which is still pretty much the iconic platformer, regardless of generation (unless I'm mistaken and today when people say something is "like Super Mario Bros.," people respond with "like Super Mario Galaxy?" :roll: )?
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Re:

Post by Wenchang »

Limbrooke wrote:Don't know what reviews you've read but many of them understand and state the obvious benefits and impact of chaining.
Those impacts being just presenting another level of memorization driven gameplay. Which is fine, if it wasn't already in every single Cave game or that conceptually the system is just a reworking of previous Treasure games. Anyhow, what bothers me about it, is that people acted like it was yet another unique thing about this game(just like the polarity system), when a more knowledgable reviewer would have known chaining was already arguably the norm by that time.
Limbrooke wrote:Sure it doesn't have a loop, but at 24 minutes a pop, it's an ideal amount of time. Not to mention 3 different modes (2 if you don't count Easy), so we're getting closer to an hour if Hard could be considered the loop for Normal and an hour and a quarter if starting on Easy. Seems like plenty of time any way it's sliced.
Not having a 2nd loop is a serious criticism. And how much of that 24 minutes is spent watching the beginning of the game animation, or the animations in the middle of each stage, or boss destruction animations, or warning messages before the boss comes out, or the score screen, or the end of game animations and text? Take that out and you have about 19 minutes of actual game maybe. That's probably why Ikaruga is so frustrating, the thing that stands out to me most in my play sessions is how the game felt like i was constantly waiting for something to happen. From the slow, obstacle based gameplay to the fact that the game can't go 2 minutes without interrupting itself, it's just miserable.

If you want to count difficulty levels as ways of extending game time, fine, problem is, there's nothing particularly unusual about console shmup ports having difficultly modes, and many had them along with 2nd loops and a long regular game time. Still too short imo.
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Post by Limbrooke »

Wenchang wrote:Those impacts being just presenting another level of memorization driven gameplay. Which is fine, if it wasn't already in every single Cave game or that conceptually the system is just a reworking of previous Treasure games. Anyhow, what bothers me about it, is that people acted like it was yet another unique thing about this game(just like the polarity system), when a more knowledgable reviewer would have known chaining was already arguably the norm by that time.
I was discussing this from the viewpoint in North America. I cannot agree that chaining was the standard over here at the time by any stretch of the imagination. Ikaruga has had no competition in this regard, in North America, outside emulation, importing, and private arcade board ownership. All the same, it still doesn't change the fact that some reviews understood the chaining aspect and while not in-depth do stress it's important with respect to scoring well.
Wenchang wrote:Not having a 2nd loop is a serious criticism. And how much of that 24 minutes is spent watching the beginning of the game animation, or the animations in the middle of each stage, or boss destruction animations, or warning messages before the boss comes out, or the score screen, or the end of game animations and text? Take that out and you have about 19 minutes of actual game maybe. That's probably why Ikaruga is so frustrating, the thing that stands out to me most in my play sessions is how the game felt like i was constantly waiting for something to happen. From the slow, obstacle based gameplay to the fact that the game can't go 2 minutes without interrupting itself, it's just miserable.

If you want to count difficulty levels as ways of extending game time, fine, problem is, there's nothing particularly unusual about console shmup ports having difficultly modes, and many had them along with 2nd loops and a long regular game time. Still too short imo.
I personally don't count the difficulty levels as ways of extending the game or acting as substitute loops. I simply offer that analysis as something to consider if you aren't satisfied with the length each given run on a specific difficulty may take. It's all about preference and speaking for myself, some games don't need 1 hour+ run times for a given play. The longer the game, the greater the initial investment requirements are, especially if the game demands a high level of attention. The memorable Treasure games have put great emphasis on assaulting the senses, as I would see it, and Ikaruga when I first tried it has this characteristic. Having said that, one really needs spend time memorizing and practicing the game and I believe this is all that matters. If you're a expert, dot eater, or credit feeder, I can see how 24 minutes total time spent can be insufficient.

Ikaruga like some Treasure games has the tendancy for cinematics that cannot be skipped. Comparing to Gradius 5, Gunstar Heroes, GSH, etc.. Ikaruga's cinematics aren't as distracting or displacing. They've never bothered me, not on the same level as G5 or GSH at least.
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by kengou »

Dodger wrote: I still rock it though...trying to log those 9 hours for unlimited continues :wink:
You're doing it wrong...
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Re: Re:

Post by MathU »

Wenchang wrote:Not having a 2nd loop is a serious criticism.
Just stopped in this thread to say WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?

I prefer games with solid enough stages and depth that a second loop isn't necessary to artificially increase the challenge or replayability. 2nd loops are lazy, and I hate trudging through the same game twice just to get to the challenging part, or to feel like I've completely "beaten" it. Cho Ren Sha 68K, Dodonpachi, R-Type III (god, especially this one), etc. all would be MUCH better off if the 2nd loop was just a difficulty option.

Not that I like Ikaruga, mind you.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by PsychoGun »

I will concur that 2nd loops are fucking stupid.

It's the equivalent of having to fight all the bosses again on the last stage of a platform game, just a lazy way to prolong a game.
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by ncp »

MathU wrote:artificially increase the challenge
With the intensity of one million supernovas, I hate this phrase and anyone/anything associated with it. What can possibly make you think a difficult second loop is somehow more "artificial" than a difficult first loop? It's as stupid as saying "well they just ARTIFICIALLY increased the difficulty of mushi ultra by adding more bullets to maniac mode! it's not true difficulty it's artificial difficulty!!1"
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by MathU »

D'aww, I love you too, ncp. <:3

The fact is it requires very little effort to make the game harder and more tedious to complete for the gamer. They simply make players play through it a second time, only this time with something simple altered like suicide bullets or enemy health. Instead of programming new content like stages or different enemies, it almost invariably comes down to barely changing the game at all. The game becomes twice as difficult with almost no real work from the developer; hence, "artificial" difficulty. It's a stupid mechanic that only exists in arcades (again, versus just making it a separate difficulty mode) to suck the quarters out of more dedicated players. Imagine how much more accessible Dodonpachi would be without that dumb second loop.

I can understand your problem with the terminology of "artificial", but you didn't need to hurt my feelings. :(
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by ncp »

MathU wrote:D'aww, I love you too, ncp. <:3
^_^

I'd even prefer people use "lazy" if they have a beef with 2nd loops re-using the 1st loop's gameplay. I don't agree but at least it makes sense. "Artificial difficulty" makes no sense at all (if something is difficult, it's difficult, there's nothing "artificial" about a harder version of the same game), and an overwhelming majority of the time that I see this phrase used it's just an excuse to suck at a game and not even try. I realize this isn't really the case here but I'd much prefer that the words artificial and difficulty never be used in the same sentence ever again for all eternity.

The 2nd loop is what allows Dodonpachi's 1st loop to be so accessible, which is most likely why it's so popular. A lot of the fun of Dodonpachi comes from the fact that the 1st loop is not overly difficult, and easy to improve your scores on, while still being a reasonable challenge. That said, there's not a chance in hell Cave would have released Dodonpachi as one loop without significantly increasing the difficulty. There would be a number of players here able to reach near-world-record scores if this were the case, and it would probably be the easiest all-clear of any popular shooter that I can think of.
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by njiska »

ncp wrote:I realize this isn't really the case here but I'd much prefer that the words artificial and difficulty never be used in the same sentence ever again for all eternity.
Artificial difficulty is an apt term when used to describe difficulty created by something that doesn't feel natural. Glitches, intentionally bad controls, a truly shite camera. Basically everything the seurvival horror genre is known for. However I completely agree with you that adding more bullets does not constitute artificial difficulty, especially as it's a natural continuation of the difficulty from the first loop. That would be enhanced difficulty.

BTW:

artificial
- 5 dictionary results
ar·ti·fi·cial
   /ˌɑrtəˈfɪʃəl/ Show Spelled[ahr-tuh-fish-uhl] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
made by human skill; produced by humans ( opposed to natural): artificial flowers.
2.
imitation; simulated; sham: artificial vanilla flavoring.
3.
lacking naturalness or spontaneity; forced; contrived; feigned: an artificial smile.

4.
full of affectation; affected; stilted: artificial manners; artificial speech.
5.
made without regard to the particular needs of a situation, person, etc.; imposed arbitrarily; unnatural: artificial rules for dormitory residents.

6.
Biology . based on arbitrary, superficial characteristics rather than natural, organic relationships: an artificial system of classification.
7.
Jewelry . manufactured to resemble a natural gem, in chemical composition or appearance. Compare assembled, imitation ( def. 11 ) , synthetic ( def. 6 ) .
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by Rob »

Still doesn't make sense. Perhaps less.
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by captpain »

I hate it when games arbitrarily impose difficulty on me. Just make it easy -- ya dig?
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

Um, as I see it, the second loop is a reward for clearing the first one, so you can get more game for your tiny little credit. It is a good thing. Of course if the second loop is just cheaply hard (game design goes through the window and the game's just being a dick), and the Super Awesome Ultimate Boss Fight crowns this crappy loop only if you don't use continues, it's not the kind of reward I would hope for.
Sometimes I get the impression that some people forgot how it is to play in the arcade. The restart fever epidemic is a clue.
Perhaps in home ports of arcade games loops should be selectable like difficulty levels. This kind of customisation is always a good thing, but you can't blame coin-op games for not having selectable difficulties (arcade operators wouldn't want it and the developers have to please them and gamers alike).
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by ROBOTRON »

captpain wrote:I hate it when games arbitrarily impose difficulty on me. Just make it easy -- ya dig?
Perfect example is Alpha Mission II for the Neo-Geo AES.

No matter what difficulty level u put it on, if you are playing well the AI arc is the worst I've ever seen in a shmup...I mean it stops send power ups and starts sending u power downs (yup, you read it right, POWER DOWNS) and enemy bullets began to travel at light speeds and bosses are 150% hard to kill....its pretty crazy. A shame too, because its a really good shmup other than that horrible flaw.
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by esreveR »

MR_Soren wrote:Because none of the western reviewers actually like any 2D Shooters, but Ikaruga caught their attention due to it's polarity gimmick. Now they feel they need to name drop it when badly describing any other 2D shooting game because they feel it gives them cred.
This.

I played Ikaruga, it was pretty good and had a nice adrenaline rush going in the 'trading lasers' boss fight, but I personally liked Under Defeat a lot more.

Probably because there's like no bullet dodging in Ikaruga. That's possibly another reason why western reviewers like it, but I don't like how the inevitable response to a wall of bullets is "Press B to switch polarity". That just seems stupid, you know? DODGE THEM LIKE A MAN
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by ShmupSamurai »

Because none of the western reviewers actually like any 2D Shooters, but Ikaruga caught their attention due to it's polarity gimmick. Now they feel they need to name drop it when badly describing any other 2D shooting game because they feel it gives them cred.
*sigh* THIS is WHY I dislike the western FPS-swampped market... :x

AND who gives a care about "cred"? I must agree that Ikaruga needs to be knocked off its high horse so that people can see what else this genre has to offer.

btw, I don't people will ever stop debating over RSG.

point # 3) WHY does everyone in the US take the dang lazy way out of a bullet storm?! It drives me nuts.
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by Ebbo »

ShmupSamurai wrote:AND who gives a care about "cred"? I must agree that Ikaruga needs to be knocked off its high horse so that people can see what else this genre has to offer.
I know plenty of people (myself included) who were introduced into world of shoot'em ups by Ikaruga and they play plenty of other shooters nowadays. What's wrong about that? How would the situation be any different if Dodonpachi was the favorite shmup among mainstream reviewers instead of Ikaruga? I personally think Ikaruga is one of the many ways to see what else this genre has to offer.
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by esreveR »

ShmupSamurai wrote:point # 3) WHY does everyone in the US take the dang lazy way out of a bullet storm?! It drives me nuts.
I wonder if I'm the only American who actually bothered to try dodging the final boss's attacks in Raiden III without bombing. I tried, and actually managed to dodge the first continuous wavey spread that ended in a 3-way burst, but when it did it again my luck ran out.

Speaking of which, I was introduced to shmuppery by good ol' Raiden II (Raiden X is for noobs).
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by MathU »

esreveR wrote:I wonder if I'm the only American who actually bothered to try dodging the final boss's attacks in Raiden III without bombing.
I learned how to do that back in II. It's pretty much the same thing in III with an extra wave or something if I remember right. Always a satisfying experience.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by Taylor »

Ikaruga is cool and all, but it's no Touhou.
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by esreveR »

MathU wrote:
esreveR wrote:I wonder if I'm the only American who actually bothered to try dodging the final boss's attacks in Raiden III without bombing.
I learned how to do that back in II. It's pretty much the same thing in III with an extra wave or something if I remember right. Always a satisfying experience.
Is there anything simpler than "Weave through the waves at right angles, then loop around the thing as it gets straighter, and pray you don't get hit"? Because it would help.
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by defected78 »

Ikaruga is an amazing game.

Its true that people are bigging it up who dont understand it but that doesnt lower the score of the game.

Its great.
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Re: Re:

Post by esreveR »

MathU wrote:
Wenchang wrote:Not having a 2nd loop is a serious criticism.
Just stopped in this thread to say WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?

I prefer games with solid enough stages and depth that a second loop isn't necessary to artificially increase the challenge or replayability. 2nd loops are lazy, and I hate trudging through the same game twice just to get to the challenging part, or to feel like I've completely "beaten" it. Cho Ren Sha 68K, Dodonpachi, R-Type III (god, especially this one), etc. all would be MUCH better off if the 2nd loop was just a difficulty option.

Not that I like Ikaruga, mind you.
Second loops are fine with me, they prevent you from milking everything while it's still there and it artificially raises the challen-*Shot

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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by burgerkingdiamond »

Ikaruga is one of those games that I like to watch replays of, and I have a lot of respect for people who can play it well, but I can't stand to play it myself...
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Re: Why is Ikaruga so Damn Popular with Western Reviewers?

Post by mangadrive »

Same reason Final Fantasy 7 is so popular with Western Reviewers:

Timing.

It brought many that 'first' experience of something and nostalgia will beat the living hell out of any sense of fresh air that any preprocessor can ever have after it. Everything will be compared to it.

Consider that most of the reviewers are now the type that grew up with the PS1 or Gamecube instead of NES or Atari 2600.
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