XRGB-3

[Zapf]

is there a reason you are outputting your xbox 360 at 720p and upscaling that to 1080p instead of just having it output 1080p?

there are various reasons to that. a) nearly all games are optimized for 720p output, b) nearly all games are internally rendered at 720p or less, c) there are serious performance drops on many games if the 360 is set to 1080p (incl. Cave games), d) my Blackmagic Multibridge (the machine I used to overlay scanlines) only supports 720p and 1080i and progressive is a must for videogames.

cool. Is there a page with more info on this or a list of games affected by 1080p rendering?

[kamiboy]

but if you plan on playing lot of 480i RPGs you should get something different for them.

I've been a bit puzzled by this statement of yours which you also made on your page. I assume you claim that XRGB in B1 is no good for RPG's because they use a lot of text, and the fact that the XRGB merely draws each field separately instead of combining them will cause the text to become less readable.

But is it really that bad? I mean, the way the XRGB handles it is the same that it was done on any old CRT. I realize LCD and CRT are two different technologies and as such that method might not work very well for the former as it did for the latter, still, oldskool RPG's used pretty big fonts, so is it really that big of a problem? And especially since all of that is going to get blown up to 42"+ sizes anyway on most people's modern setup.

[trunk]

Here are 2 pictures of my scaling issue going from 480p->720p.

Using sega Fantasy Zone Collection

Please note this happens whether I do:
PS2 w/ component->TV via component (480P with scanlines)
PS2 w/ component->HD Box Pro->vga2hdmi-> TV via HDMI (480P with scanlines)
PS2 w/component to D terminal->xrgb-3 b1 mode->vga2hdmi-> TV via HDMI (480P with scanlines)
PS2 w/ official 21 pin jRGB cable(game in)->xrgb-3 b1 mode->vga2hdmi-> TV via HDMI (240P)

The solution should be to put a scaler somewhere between the xrgb-3 and the TV. Figure I'd share some pictures just in case other people have this problem and wonder about moire and uneven scanlines.

[Chacranajxy]

but if you plan on playing lot of 480i RPGs you should get something different for them.

I've been a bit puzzled by this statement of yours which you also made on your page. I assume you claim that XRGB in B1 is no good for RPG's because they use a lot of text, and the fact that the XRGB merely draws each field separately instead of combining them will cause the text to become less readable.

But is it really that bad? I mean, the way the XRGB handles it is the same that it was done on any old CRT. I realize LCD and CRT are two different technologies and as such that method might not work very well for the former as it did for the latter, still, oldskool RPG's used pretty big fonts, so is it really that big of a problem? And especially since all of that is going to get blown up to 42"+ sizes anyway on most people's modern setup.

honestly, I've had absolutely no issues playing RPGs via the XRGB. Once I got my PS2 plugged in via SCART and got the settings right, my picture was perfectly stable and clear. The only time I have had an issue in B1 mode is when I was using component cables with the PS2 rather than scart.

[RuffNEC]

why everyone uses 23423x scalers before connect to the tv?! why not just using the xrgb 3 ?!

[ShutokouBattle]

Does the Genesis/Mega Drive output RGB without a mod? Micomsoft makes that XMD-1 thing that outputs RGB - that's only for the model 1, right? Does the model 2 output RGB?

[Fudoh]

But is it really that bad? I mean, the way the XRGB handles it is the same that it was done on any old CRT. I realize LCD and CRT are two different technologies and as such that method might not work very well for the former as it did for the latter, still, oldskool RPG's used pretty big fonts, so is it really that big of a problem? And especially since all of that is going to get blown up to 42"+ sizes anyway on most people's modern setup.

old school RPGs are 240p, nothing to worry about them. 480i on B1 causes feathering/combing on any moving objects. Trying to play a game like Persona 3 or the Atelier Iris games on it, really isn't fun.

why everyone uses 23423x scalers before connect to the tv?! why not just using the xrgb 3 ?!

I don't. Direct connection all the way

Does the Genesis/Mega Drive output RGB without a mod?

yes

Micomsoft makes that XMD-1 thing that outputs RGB

wasn't the XMD-1/2 a RGB to S-Video converter ?

[Pocket_Man]

wasn't the XMD-1/2 a RGB to S-Video converter ?

yes but it also has an 15 pin sub d plug for rgb output.
doesnt make any sense but i think it was some kind of plug for japanese rgb monitors.

[RGB32E]

I have a XMD-3 (for 9 pin mini din Genesis systems):

http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:micomsoft_xmd-3

[trunk]

why everyone uses 23423x scalers before connect to the tv?! why not just using the xrgb 3 ?!

If my TV was good enough I'd use just the xrgb-3 but as you can see you get what you pay for in terms of image processing done on legacy devices. Since my tv doesn't have a PC port I have to do VGA2YPBPR or VGA2HDMI, I use the xrgb in B1 mode for scanlines but the tv doesn't scale nicely, so now I need a scaler.

Ideally a quality TV would be purchased first but I do enjoy connecting and tweaking components together to get past limitations. These days I spend more time trying to get a correct image than actually playing the game

[ZOM]

These days I spend more time trying to get a correct image than actually playing the game

Believe me, you're not alone.

[darthcloud]

My post got lost at the end of last page

Hi,

I currently looking to replace my XRGB3 with something better for 480i signal.

Any suggestion?

I'm quite happy with my Panny HDTV upscaling and desinterlacing.

I just need something to convert 480i RGBS to 480i YUV or maybe something that desinterlace to VGA 480p.

Maybe Extron as something for this or any other manufacturer?

[Fudoh]

Any suggestion?

I thought this posting was a joke. Considering you're read through my page, you've quite a market overview and there's really not much to add to that. I'm not convinced by Extron's older deinterlacers and even the newer ones are just not targeted at us gamers or even home theater applications.

I just need something to convert 480i RGBS to 480i YUV

what for ? Which system has 480i on the majority of games and just outputs RGBs ?

[kamiboy]

But is it really that bad? I mean, the way the XRGB handles it is the same that it was done on any old CRT. I realize LCD and CRT are two different technologies and as such that method might not work very well for the former as it did for the latter, still, oldskool RPG's used pretty big fonts, so is it really that big of a problem? And especially since all of that is going to get blown up to 42"+ sizes anyway on most people's modern setup.

old school RPGs are 240p, nothing to worry about them. 480i on B1 causes feathering/combing on any moving objects. Trying to play a game like Persona 3 or the Atelier Iris games on it, really isn't fun.

Well that there is the reason why I keep my launch model PS3 around. I am even considering picking up one of the busted YLOD ones being sold locally, sending it in to SONY be repaired or swapped for a refurb launch model for $200 and keep it around as backup in case my own should bite the dust again.

I really don't understand why SONY does not put out another fully hardware backwards compatible version again for like $50 over the regular model. I know I'd pay up to get a less bulky, less noisy more power efficient PS3 with excellent upscaling of PS2 and even PSX games if need be.

Usually I am all for playing games on original hardware but the launch model PS3 is a special case, I tossed both my older PS systems when I got my hands on that one, with the ease of playing 3 generations of games on a single system and benefiting from fully digital audio and video fed to my LCD and receiver via a single HDMI cable the PS3 simply is a dream come true.

That same way the Wii is a laughably inadequate system that does not even offer the paltry digital audio that even the PS2 offered over 10 years ago. The SNES truly was the only worthwhile system that Nintendo ever put out, it was right in every way that none of their other systems ever were.

[darthcloud]

Any suggestion?

I thought this posting was a joke. Considering you're read through my page, you've quite a market overview and there's really not much to add to that. I'm not convinced by Extron's older deinterlacers and even the newer ones are just not targeted at us gamers or even home theater applications.

I just need something to convert 480i RGBS to 480i YUV

what for ? Which system has 480i on the majority of games and just outputs RGBs ?

Almost all N64 games that make use of expansion pak output in 480i in Hi-Res mode.

[Fudoh]

Almost all N64 games that make use of expansion pak output in 480i in Hi-Res mode.

And those are really worth the effort ?

For any 480i action games, I think the XRGB-3 (in B1 only) is still pretty good. After all deinterlacing always involves some lag and while you don't gain resolution on static images, the XRGB-3 makes the best out of it for moving scenes. If you want something nice for RGBs->YUV you can either use a CYP-2100 converter box of the Kramer converter (FC-14 I think). I still don't think that it's worth it - especially with a XRGB-3 already in the setup.

[Fudoh]

Well that there is the reason why I keep my launch model PS3 around.

The PS3 isn't very good with 480i PS2 titles. For the same money ($200+) you can get a DVDO VP20 or VP30 which have much better 480i deinterlacing capabilities and exhibit less lag than the PS3 with PS2 titles. I have a japanese launch PS3 as well, but I don't use it for PS2 titles, since other hardware solutions just perform better.

[SGGG2]

The PS3 isn't very good with 480i PS2 titles.

My old housemate had a backwards compatible PS3, I tried out Manhunt and Zone of the Enders 2, they both looked fantastic on a 720p LCD of his. When I hooked the system up to my 1080p LCD via HDMI they looked terrible. All sorts of ringing. The output setting was 1080, PS3 games looked perfect, so I don't know what the deal was.

[ShutokouBattle]

I have another question for you, Fudoh, or anyone who cares to answer. Yes, I'm full of them. Since the XRGB-3 is kind of a big investment, I'm trying to figure out if it's going to last me a long time. The TV I have right now has both VGA and HDMI inputs, so it should have no problem doing anything I want to do with the XRGB-3.

However, I may one day end up getting a TV that doesn't have VGA, only HDMI. TV's with VGA inputs are getting harder to find already, and eventually they probably won't exist at all. If I got a TV with only HDMI, then I could probably get a decent resolution digital signal out of the XRGB-3, but I wouldn't be able to use scanlines - which I'm not sure at this point if I'll want to do, but I'll probably just have to see it myself to decide. So what I'm wondering is, if for some reason I need to use the VGA-out from the XRGB-3, could I still get a decent picture by using a VGA to HDMI converter box? How much does a decent one cost? They're quite plentiful, but I don't know which ones are any good.

The PS3 isn't very good with 480i PS2 titles.

My old housemate had a backwards compatible PS3, I tried out Manhunt and Zone of the Enders 2, they both looked fantastic on a 720p LCD of his. When I hooked the system up to my 1080p LCD via HDMI they looked terrible. All sorts of ringing. The output setting was 1080, PS3 games looked perfect, so I don't know what the deal was.

Did you try setting the PS3's resolution to 720p instead of 1080p?

[SGGG2]

Fudoh gives the the Gefen VGA to DVI scaler a positive review on his deinterlacing page, and Konsolkongen is happy with his.

Didn't try setting the PS3 to 720p. My monitor doesn't scale so well.

[ShutokouBattle]

Hm... that thing is almost as expensive as the XRGB-3 itself.

[Fudoh]

There are lots of other (and much cheaper) VGA to HDMI converters. You might need to try 2 or 3 to find the best one, but with around 50 EUR a piece they're not too expensive.

The advantage of Gefen (which can sometimes be found for around 100 EUR 2nd hand) is that is has it's own scaler. This means you input 480p from the XRGB and output 1080p to the TV. The Gefen scaling engine is crappy for video, but it's very nice for graphics, as it keeps the pixels clean and sharp, much like the XRGB itself in B0 mode.

[Konsolkongen]

B1 mode scaled to 1080p by the Gefen looks VERY good IMO. I can't find anything wrong with it

[Konsolkongen]

Looks like Micomsoft has opened up an online shop

http://micomsoft.co.jp/shop/

Can't say if they will ship worldwide though...

[brentsg]

Two questions..

First, which Genfen model exactly should I buy for XRGB-3 to Pio 5010 (1080p HDMI)?

Second, what is the purpose of the various other Micomsoft models on that page?

[ShutokouBattle]

Okay, so I was just messing around with a PS1 game on my PS3 to see how my TV deals with 240p content converted to 480p. With the PS3 set to 1080p it looked excellent. When it's set to 480p it looks okay except for the fact that the aspect ratio is all wrong. With the TV on 16:9 mode the image has black borders on the sides, but not in a way that makes a 4:3 image - it's somewhere in between 4:3 and 16:9. Switching the display mode to 4:3 doesn't help either; it squishes the image further than it should so that it's narrower than 4:3. There's no aspect ratio setting (that I'm aware of) that will show the image at the correct size. My Wii (which outputs 480p over component) does the same stupid thing with Gamecube games and some non-widescreen Wii games. I have no idea why. Now I'm worried that an XRGB-3 set to B1 mode might do the same thing. Any ideas on what might be causing this and how to fix it?

Another thing I noticed was that, when I turned the smoothing option off, the image looked really blocky. I know this is a desirable thing to some people, but not to me. My TV seems to smooth 480p content from my Wii, so why shouldn't it have a similar effect on PS1 games? I realize that there's linedoubling going on, but why should 1 extra pixel for every existing pixel make such a difference? Would scanlines decrease the perception of blockiness, I wonder?

[brentsg]

Would scanlines decrease the perception of blockiness, I wonder?

Yes

[Konsolkongen]

My XRGB-3 stopped working with RGBs inputs today for no reason. Both GAME IN and D2 IN. Worked perfectly yesterday. I have tried resetting and reflashing the firmware.

I'm guessing it's busted now. F... this piece of shit

Component works fine...

[RGB32E]

My XRGB-3 stopped working with RGBs inputs today for no reason. Both GAME IN and D2 IN. Worked perfectly yesterday. I have tried resetting and reflashing the firmware.

I'm guessing it's busted now. F... this piece of shit

Component works fine...

Didn't you rewire the GAME IN input for SCART? Perhaps something has shorted out since then???

[Konsolkongen]

Yes i did. Nothing has happened it all looks perfect. And that wouldn't explain why RGBs doesn't work on D2. Just for the fuck of it i removed my rewireing on the GAME IN port and it changed nothing.