Most Controversial Shmup?

[Cthulhu]

Somehow, I seriously doubt we will see much on the next generation consoles like the 360 and PS3. The Revolution may give us some old-school favorites, though. But, it we don't see some innovation soon, I fear the shooter is dead to all but portable systems. I hope I am wrong!

There are shmups coming out in droves these days. Really. There haven't been this many shmups coming out since the heyday of the Saturn and PS1. In these next two weeks there are three brand new shmups and no less than EIGHT retro releases. You're wrong, be happy.

[al138]

There are shmups coming out in droves these days. Really. There haven't been this many shmups coming out since the heyday of the Saturn and PS1. In these next two weeks there are three brand new shmups and no less than EIGHT retro releases. You're wrong, be happy.

All of which makes me wish I lived in Japan again. Alas, here is the US the market for new titles is very dry. I don't have the ability to constantly import titles, or else I would have a modded PS2. Perhaps that is what I need to get next!

[Cthulhu]

All of which makes me wish I lived in Japan again. Alas, here is the US the market for new titles is very dry. I don't have the ability to constantly import titles, or else I would have a modded PS2. Perhaps that is what I need to get next!

The PSP shmups (Star Soldier, Sengoku Cannon) may see a US release, and Taito Memories is getting a US release for sure, but Mushihime-sama and the other retro releases probably won't. If you're serious about collecting console shmups, yeah, you should look into some Japanese systems soon.

[Nemo]

It has to be Garegga. I seriously feared for BulletMagnet's life last topic once Rando starting getting all hot and bothered.

[BUHA]

Haha that was a great flamewar, Nemo. Probably my favorite flamewar EVER.

Didn't he say something about Bulletmagnet not being a person???

[Nemo]

Yes, according to Rando, young BulletMagnet is an animal. I don't think you're an animal BM.

[Cthulhu]

I remember that, but not too well... do we still have that in the archives, or was that on the old database? I'd love to peruse it again.

[BUHA]

I know the topic was locked but I don't know if it's still available for viewing! It was great though.

And it was all due to somebody not liking the scoring/rank on Garegga.

Some people need to lighten up!

[Lyle]

Axelay. From what I've seen on forums, 50% of the players seem to approve of Konami's strange experimentation in this game, the 50% others think it's absolute crap. The case is rare when you see such a clear-cut division in opinions.

[black mariah]

Axelay. From what I've seen on forums, 50% of the players seem to approve of Konami's strange experimentation in this game, the 50% others think it's absolute crap. The case is rare when you see such a clear-cut division in opinions.

True dat. I'm on the "absolute crap" side. Mode 7 makes my ass hurt.

[mannerbot]

Obviously Garegga in recent times, but before that definitely RSG. As far as the "flamewar" between Rando and BulletMagnet, I'm of the opinion that BulletMagnet brought that on himself.

[mannerbot]

That's not to say that I don't think BulletMagnet is a person though, lol.

[Zweihander]

Sanvein, anyone?

[Marc]

Obviously Garegga in recent times, but before that definitely RSG. As far as the "flamewar" between Rando and BulletMagnet, I'm of the opinion that BulletMagnet brought that on himself.

Now I really wanna see this. Links anyone?

[CMoon]

Speaking of controversy, I would say that the early 90's was the golden period of shmups: Toaplan, Seibu (why was this listed as mid-90's?), early-Cave (95), Compile, Irem, Technosoft, Taito, SNK, and yes, Psikyo begin to put out there first games in the early 90's as well.

I would go so far as to say that most of the innovative ideas in shmups appeared during this period, not the mid to late 90's. So it all depends on what you mean by a 'golden period'.

And as far as BM being an animal...I hope so; plants are not allowed to post here

[snap monkey]

Haha that was a great flamewar, Nemo. Probably my favorite flamewar EVER.

Didn't he say something about Bulletmagnet not being a person???

Yeah, that was my favorite moment. Amazing.

[llabnip]

Speaking of controversy, I would say that the early 90's was the golden period of shmups: Toaplan, Seibu (why was this listed as mid-90's?), early-Cave (95), Compile, Irem, Technosoft, Taito, SNK, and yes, Psikyo begin to put out there first games in the early 90's as well.

I agree the early 90's was the golden period for scrolling shooters. I'll be even more specific. 1990 saw Raiden released. 1995 saw Strikers 1945 I released. The games there were released in-between cover an amazing amount of ground (both console games like Thunderforce 3/4, MUSHA as well as Arcade games like Batsugun, DonPachi). During this time a ton of scrolling shooters were released in the US (SNES and Genesis mostly...). So I'll put out 1990 to 1995 as the golden era of shooters. It also happens to be the era of shooting games that I enjoy most (my favoriate all-around era of video games are the innovative years from 1977-1982).

[Icarus]

Obviously Garegga in recent times, but before that definitely RSG. As far as the "flamewar" between Rando and BulletMagnet, I'm of the opinion that BulletMagnet brought that on himself.

Now I really wanna see this. Links anyone?

You mean this? And this? And this as well? Just search for "garegga" and "rank" and guaranteed you'll come across at least ten seperate threads related to the game (and the hatred of it). Maybe more. Those three are probably the tastiest.

What amuses me is the amount of people who claim that the game is impossible without utilising counter-intuitive playing methods. When recently, several forum members have almost cleared the game (and recently, Plasmo just did).

So much for it being impossible.

[Blade]

You know what? I haven't even played Garegga before and that was funny.

[BUHA]

You have not to expect anything but what you get, since your understanding of games is below zero, your arrogance is abysmal and you pretend to be taken seriously without even bothering to know how things work. You have spent your whole time on this forum insisting and without learning (what makes yourself, paraphrasing one of your posts) anything of the games you play. Such stubborness is beyond redemption, also. and if this is not enough, you act like a victim.

Let's define one simple thing: if you don't understand how a game works, you will never get anywhere. As my scores are basically the best ones around, in the games i play and played, there has to be one reason - i know how to use the various engines. You don't. And you refuse to understand, you say false things, you blame ALWAYS other people.

This is not postmodern art, where you shun the world because you're a dumb kid grown up with tv. Face it, arts kid: an infinite amount or repetitions of the same bullshit will still make a bullshit.
Again ,remain as you are, i can't see a worst punishment

I can't believe anybody can write that and be serious. IT'S A DAMN VIDEOGAME.

I say Garegga wins as the most controversial shmup!

[BulletMagnet]

What amuses me is the amount of people who claim that the game is impossible without utilising counter-intuitive playing methods. When recently, several forum members have almost cleared the game (and recently, Plasmo just did).

So much for it being impossible.

Methinks the logical follow-up question to be asked here is "did the aforementioned people use the aforementioned counter-intuitive playing methods?"

[professor ganson]

What amuses me is the amount of people who claim that the game is impossible without utilising counter-intuitive playing methods. When recently, several forum members have almost cleared the game (and recently, Plasmo just did).

So much for it being impossible.

Yeah, at the beginning of the summer I managed to get pretty far in Garegga, and at the time I was using analog control! Now that I've figured out that analog control completely sucks for shmups, I expect I'll be able to get even further, once I return to the game. And my skills are well below Bulletmagnet's, I'm sure. The game takes patience, but I think it rewards rather nicely.

[Acid King]

You mean this? And this? And this as well? Just search for "garegga" and "rank" and guaranteed you'll come across at least ten seperate threads related to the game (and the hatred of it). Maybe more. Those three are probably the tastiest.

What amuses me is the amount of people who claim that the game is impossible without utilising counter-intuitive playing methods. When recently, several forum members have almost cleared the game (and recently, Plasmo just did).

So much for it being impossible.

That first thread makes my head hurt. I don't know which is worse, that one between BM and Rando or when Rando tore in to someone for posting "10 shmup commandments", which I think also revolved around rank.

[BulletMagnet]

I don't know which is worse, that one between BM and Rando or when Rando tore in to someone for posting "10 shmup commandments", which I think also revolved around rank.

That second one was me too, heh.

[Acid King]

I don't know which is worse, that one between BM and Rando or when Rando tore in to someone for posting "10 shmup commandments", which I think also revolved around rank.

That second one was me too, heh.

That was a bad one too. I wonder if that one was lost.

[Icarus]

Methinks the logical follow-up question to be asked here is "did the aforementioned people use the aforementioned counter-intuitive playing methods?"

Probably. Probably not. You'd have to ask Plasmo, sven666 and Vorpal about that. Regardless to say, they've put in a lot of time, and that is what Garegga demands. Their rewards are just around the corner (and in Plasmo's case, he's achieved the ALL. Well done to him).

The game takes patience, but I think it rewards rather nicely.

That's what I try to say whenever Garegga threads pop up. The game isn't a quick rush job that takes a week to master, it's a long term dedication game. Patience, observation and dedication is required to play this game competently, and the rewards for your time are well worth it.

[BulletMagnet]

Regardless to say, they've put in a lot of time, and that is what Garegga demands.

That one's definitely become more clear to me the more I've played the thing...it seems you really don't have to play the game very differently from most other shmups when you get right down to it, you just have to be so darn good at the thing that you're able to limit yourself and go through most of it with weak weapons, no bombs and no lives in reserve, in order to most effectively keep the extends coming and the rank low; basically, you've got to know the game inside and out, not just to score well, but just to finish the thing, since you need to do one to do the other. It's a very cut-and-dry requirement for winning; you either know the game well enough to be able to survive while playing "the right way," or you don't. I can definitely see why the hardcore players love it so much...though I still say that anyone who insists that the game is perfectly newbie-friendly (and newbie-beatable to boot) must be nuts.

[Icarus]

I can definitely see why the hardcore players love it so much...though I still say that anyone who insists that the game is perfectly newbie-friendly (and newbie-beatable to boot) must be nuts.

It's not newbie-friendly in that a new player can come straight in and do well. Even I'll admit that. But it is simple enough to allow you to make good progression. And after further study and practice, once you can get to grips with it's many facets of complexity, you can make inroads to a high-score, an ALL, and maybe both.

One thing I respect and love Garegga for is that after I spent a year learning it, I looked at shmups in a different perspective: systems, strategies, tricks, tactics. I no longer play shmups straight up (although it is fun to just blast once in a while) because, after Garegga, I get more fun from learning a game inside-and-out.

Hopefully you won't stop your Garegga training. You're making good progress, soon you will see what makes the game so... beautiful

[CMoon]

I can definitely see why the hardcore players love it so much...though I still say that anyone who insists that the game is perfectly newbie-friendly (and newbie-beatable to boot) must be nuts.

Not to start this again (or dehumanizing BulletMagnet), but honestly, if BG isn't newbie friendly than neither are MOST of the shmups coming out now. They all demand a high level of skill and understanding. Do you intuitively know how to combo, and even if you do 'understand it', can you be good at it without lots of practice and memorization. I think it is easier to dodge a power-up in BG than it is to correctly combo, get all the bees and get the star-carrier thing down simultaneously in DDP.

But this isn't even the issue. With tons of practice (why don't you try hard?), I can get to level 4 in DDP, less in DOJ. Some would call me a bad player, but I can--without practice--get to level 4 or 5 in Battle Garregga, with minimal rank maintanence (I don't pick up power-ups in level 1). A friend of mine who had never played BG before joined forces with me 2 player and we blasted our way into level 5 completely ignoring rank.

I think 1cc'ing a shmup in general is not a newbie option (maybe Shienryue explosions or Psyvariar?), but you can play well, have fun, and actually get quite far in BG without having any knowledge of the rank. Where is the 'no newbies allowed' option? I swear if you set up two cabs with BG and DDP side by side, you would see more novice players get farther in BG, period.

Oh, I will say there is one thing about BG that is not newbie friendly. You simply must tate the game; and tate is for experienced players only.

[BulletMagnet]

Heh, well, most everyone around here knows that I'm a very different kind of shmup player than yourself, for instance...I do try to understand how games I play work and how to get better at them, but I'm not the type who gets into a game simply for the sake of excelling at it, nor do I really have the time or willpower to "properly" put into a game that demands an extraordinarily huge amount of it, such as Garegga, which more or less requires you to go through it with as little "wiggle room" for error as you can muster. That's not to say that I don't enjoy playing stuff like Garegga (heck, I did buy it, after all ) or do so without any effort to improve myself whatsoever, but I really don't consider myself "training" on it when I play it, although I have managed to improve my scores a bit over time. I just kinda pull it out when I feel like it, and hope to get a little bit better each time I do so. Of course, at that rate I'll likely never see a 1CC (not in the "foreseeable" future, anyways), but unlike a lot of shmuppers I really don't mind, as long as I enjoy the parts I do manage to reach, which I do, for the most part. I guess I just kinda hope that such a casual view of videogaming might actually be considered acceptable someday, heh.

In any case, your guides and such have been of help, thanks again for that.

EDIT, for CMoon: Heh, well, I'm mainly talking about being "newbie-friendly" in being able to finish the game, since you can beat DDP (and earn both extends) without chaining too much, but can't beat Garegga on shooting and dodging alone, so to speak. Also, Garegga's inner workings are a lot more complex than DDP's (or most any other shmup, really); you have to read an FAQ to understand it, while in DDP you can figure out most of it just by playing a few times. As for setting up the 2 cabs side by side, after awhile I'd assume that, despite their getting farther at first, you'd also see more new players "hitting a wall" with Garegga (probably stage 5 or so), while the DDP players would probably make slower but steadier progress.

But anyways, I guess our abilities are just different; I'm able to get to Stage 5 in DDP much more often than Stage 6 in BG. In any event, I own both, so methinks there's room for each.

And tate for experts only? Then what the heck am I doing playing in it?