Most Controversial Shmup?

BUHA · Post by **BUHA** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:08 am

Sometimes it seems like you just can't bring up a shmup without starting a flamewar.

Radiant Silvergun always has mixed opinions. It's either worth every penny or a total waste of money. Ikaruga's chaining always seems to bring up a lot of mixed opinions as well.

And I've never seen such crazy flaming as I've seen when people start talking about Battle Garegga and it's use of rank.

I know I'm leaving a lot of games out. What do you guys think is the most controversial shmup?

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:23 am

Gigawing Generations, Mushihime-sama...?

Post by **Ghegs** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:42 am

iatneH wrote:Mushihime-sama...?

I think the only controversial issue in Mushi were Reka's panties. Aside from that, it's been either "yay, it rocks" or "eh, standard Cave stuff". This might, of course, change in a few days...

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:08 am

Gradius and R-Type.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:12 am

From my own experience, of course, it's gotta be Garegga, heh. Though, as has been mentioned, RSG is always good for some back-and-forth as well...though lately Layer Section has sparked a bit of it around here also.

But in all honesty, any shmup which any player chooses to regard as a "sacred cow," and thus beyond criticism (well-founded or not) by anyone else, will become "controversial" if someone expresses a dissenting opinion about the game to (or within earshot of) the aforementioned person...or, on the other hand, if a player decides that a certain shmup deserves to be universally hated, and mouths off at anyone who likes it, the same happens. Whether or not it's seen as "controversial" in general just depends on the amount of players who take such an extreme position when it comes to that game.

BUHA · Post by **BUHA** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:23 am

Yeah, I think Garegga is the most controversial one. I've never seen such heated flame wars as the time when Garegga was brought up here not too long ago.

I forgot about GWG. It seems to be all about the port, though, and not the actual game. Or maybe I'm mistaken? I'm not much of a gigawing guy myself, so i didn't keep up on it.

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:34 am

R-Type and RSG. Love 'em or hate 'em.

black mariah · Post by **black mariah** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:36 am

Everything by Takumi. You either love the reflect idea or you can't fucking stand it. I own all of their Dreamcast ports, so my opinion is obvious.

Other than those... EASILY Garegga. I can't fucking stand the game. It simply feels half-assed to me. I know others can't get enough of it, but for fuck's sake it's just not that great. MAYBE once you attain a certain level of proficiency it gets better, but I'm not going to waste my time when I could be playing Every Extend or Progear instead.

WarpZone · Post by **WarpZone** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:37 am

Judging by occasional topics here, Contra

In all seriousness, Gradius, R-Type, RSG, Ikaruga, and Garegga are all good choices. Generally, the more contraversial games are the more...bold games, or ones that have some specific aspect that sets them apart from others. An aspect that might be more of a general love-or-hate thing (ie: Ikaruga) or something that introduces a less than standard philosophy (ie: Garegga).

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:37 am

It's never about the actual game, and that's what makes shmups the greatest board.

Ord · Post by **Ord** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:57 am

Isn't Ibara causing some controversy at the moment?

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:11 am

Ikaruga for me.

Ironically its black and white theme has a much more metophorical meaning

D · Post by D » Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:43 am

Ikaruga VS Battle Garegga.

As much as I hate, that much I love Battle Garegga.
And I love BG very much *wink*.

I can understand people hating Iky, because it's very different.
When someone says he hates BG, it's like saying he/she hates every shmup, because it's just an ordinairy classic shmup.

Some hate it because they can't see the bullets?????????????????????????
They don't play with RGB or they are playing on 50 Hz or they have a bad or small tv/monitor or bad eyes.

Damn I just started a war again?
OK I take everything back.
Ikaruga is the best shoot 'em up ever. I love it!

Danny · Post by **Danny** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:11 am

Anything that is considered a "borderline shmup" becaise people always argue is it a shmup or not lol.

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:55 pm

I think most shmups that general consensus deems excellent are also by default controversial. If something gets praised a lot, there's bound to be a reaction.

Most non-controversial shmups are probably the ones that everyone agrees on being completely average to below-average, like, I dunno, Ashura Blaster or something.

Some highly controversial shmups would be:

- R-Type Series - brilliant tactical gameplay Vs. slow and unfair
- Compile Shooters - excellent weapons systems Vs. boring and unbalanced
- Cave Shooters - nice scoring systems Vs. all the same
- Einhänder - cool looks & weapons Vs. heretic use polygons

Naiera · Post by **Naiera** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:58 pm

BUHA wrote:
I forgot about GWG. It seems to be all about the port, though, and not the actual game. Or maybe I'm mistaken? I'm not much of a gigawing guy myself, so i didn't keep up on it.

The game was kinda shit to begin with.

Cthulhu · Post by **Cthulhu** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:39 pm

Ord wrote:Isn't Ibara causing some controversy at the moment?

A little - but not enough people can play it yet.

How about Ikaruga? I'd say it's easily up there with RSG and Garegga. We've had so many "I love this game / I hate this game" threads about Iky it's not even funny.

freddiebamboo · Post by **freddiebamboo** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:55 pm

Battle Bakraid seems to piss people off with it's suicidal gameplay

I'm sure there was an argument recently about DOJ and whether it's actually fun or not

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:43 pm

Ghegs wrote:
iatneH wrote:Mushihime-sama...?
I think the only controversial issue in Mushi were Reka's panties. Aside from that, it's been either "yay, it rocks" or "eh, standard Cave stuff". This might, of course, change in a few days...

There was also the huge argument about resolution and scanlines and stuff, and about Taito doing the port (see: Gigawing Generations, except that also left out tate).

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:51 pm

I remember a few topics about Psyiko causing a huge argument a while back.

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:01 pm

I'll have to agree with the others who mentioned R-Type Final. IMO, its detractors have several good points: The sluggish first and third stage, its underwhelming difficulty on the default setting, the game's lack of balance and a disingenuous scoring system which makes it meaningless to submit a score for anything other than a one life run.

OTOH, I like the variety and customization options the game offers, its beautiful graphics, and its music; I thought that the BMG track fit the dark, mysterious scifi tone of the game perfectly (of course, I'm not in a position to compare it to the original soundtrack).

Also, I love all of stage 2's variations, stage 6.0 and all the final stages except for the neverending F.C (which I'd love, if the damn thing ever ended- I've come close to 1cc'ing the game three times through F.C. Real close. So close that I haven't played the game in months

).

LoneSage · Post by **LoneSage** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:31 pm

Ghegs wrote: I think the only controversial issue in Mushi were Reka's panties.

Speaking of fan service, I saw the Team Ending of Marion & Ash in Gunbird the other day; Marion's topless and she's growing up, I'm certain that would have been controversial in a different sense had soccer moms known about it

R-Type and RSG are big ole mixed results. I totally dig the R-Type games, and Radiant Silvergun is great...just not the "be all, end all" of shmups. I can understand why people still call it the greatest shmup, because back when it came out it was the shit..guess nostalgia's just showing up.

Post by **undamned** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:41 pm

Cho Aniki
-ud

llabnip · Post by **llabnip** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:43 pm

LoneSage wrote:I can understand why people still call it the greatest shmup, because back when it came out it was the shit..guess nostalgia's just showing up.

The age of a game has very little bearing on how great it is. There are still Atari 2600 games I play that are flat-out more fun, more addicting and better all-around games than 99% of everything that has come out in the last decade (Kaboom! anyone?!).

That's not to say that great games don't still get made... but a game's greatness does not need to fade over time (though some games do feel dated... Radiant Silvergun has held up amazingly well).

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:50 pm

BrianC wrote:I remember a few topics about Psyiko causing a huge argument a while back.

Yeah, I've seen some rather heated discussion between those who find Gunbird 2 and Dragon Blaze a bit unfair and those who don't.

It seems to me that some time ago there was a good bit of disagreement about the merits of Souky, but I don't recall that the discussion was terribly unfriendly.

Edit: And somehow I remember heads banging a bit over Axelay.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:42 am

Excluding Cave releases, the quality of most shooters post 2001 has been controversial.

It’s safe to say the mid/late 90's was seen as the pinnacle of the great shooter developers (Cave, Psikyo, Raizing, Seibu, Takumi, Treasure, etc.). By 2001 most these developers abruptly disappeared like the dinosaur. To many, the next batch of developers (Triangle Service, Alfa System, Success, Milestone) did little gameplay/graphics-wise to push the genre forward.

Personally, I think the source of controversy stems from the pallette on which these companies choose to develop their games: 2-D sprite/ 2-D pre-rendered graphics vs. 3-D polygons and the inherent limits on production value for both formats.

LoneSage · Post by **LoneSage** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:28 am

llabnip wrote:
LoneSage wrote:I can understand why people still call it the greatest shmup, because back when it came out it was the shit..guess nostalgia's just showing up.
The age of a game has very little bearing on how great it is. There are still Atari 2600 games I play that are flat-out more fun, more addicting and better all-around games than 99% of everything that has come out in the last decade (Kaboom! anyone?!).

I'm saying that the hype of a game surrounding its release can be astounding, and once you get this awesome game (i.e. RSG) and if you've bought the hype, then you're in heaven. Then nostalgia can take over years later, and you'll feel a kind of connection to it.

Point being, even if something isn't the greatest shmup, you still feel connected to it. It happens to me with Contra 3; dear lord I hate those two over-head levels, but because of my childhood memories with it, I think it's the greatest run 'n gunner ever

Biased? Hellz yes, but it's just a connection I can't break with this game.

al138 · Post by **al138** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:45 am

Wanderer wrote:Excluding Cave releases, the quality of most shooters post 2001 has been controversial.

It’s safe to say the mid/late 90's was seen as the pinnacle of the great shooter developers (Cave, Psikyo, Raizing, Seibu, Takumi, Treasure, etc.). By 2001 most these developers abruptly disappeared like the dinosaur. To many, the next batch of developers (Triangle Service, Alfa System, Success, Milestone) did little gameplay/graphics-wise to push the genre forward.

I think you have a very valid point! When I really think about it, I spend most of my time playng shooters pre-1998, most of which are arcade and PCE 2-D sprite titles. Granted, I like to take my poly-based PS1 shooters out quite a bit (especially G Darius and Einhander--I'm still waiting for my copy of R-Type Delta to arrive), but nothing really appeals to me like the older titles. Don't get me wrong, I have fun playing titles like Ikaruga, and I still play Gradius V at least once a week, but there is something to be said for sprites.

However, with that said, I am not adverse to poly-based shooters in the least. In fact, I would look kindly over the release of any shooter (regardless of the graphical style) at this point!

When its all said and done, I honestly think that shooter developers are in a rut. I only hope that it doesn't lead to a total death of genre--at least in the US where shooters aren't so popular. Somehow, I seriously doubt we will see much on the next generation consoles like the 360 and PS3. The Revolution may give us some old-school favorites, though. But, it we don't see some innovation soon, I fear the shooter is dead to all but portable systems. I hope I am wrong!

LoneSage · Post by **LoneSage** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:49 am

al138 wrote:. But, it we don't see some innovation soon, I fear the shooter is dead to all but portable systems. I hope I am wrong!

With fans, no genre can die.

al138 · Post by **al138** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:52 am

[quote="LoneSage]
With fans, no genre can die.[/quote]

I certainly hope so! BTW, I live in Virginia, myself!