XRGB-3

[RGB32E]

I will perform full testing over the weekend... too many things to try! I've only used the DVI-D input so far (PC and XRGB in B0 @ 1080p).

Pretty nice that the screen shows 1080p no problem. But how have you adjusted the proportions of the SNES image? The scaling is way off.

Notice the difference between the 1x1 pixels here:



Can you take another picture but this time with the Pixel Mapping setting ON. Would be nice to see how well that option works in 1080p

I can post a pic later, but the issue with 1080p in B0 is monitor agnostic. Depending upon the RGB source resolution, dot by dot doesn't work very well, as it scales the width and height of the image by the same scaler value:

SNES - 256x224 (typical resolution of the vast majority of SNES releases)
Scaler factor for 1080p with dot_by_dot on - 5
Output resolution - 1920x1080

Please compute why dot by dot wouldn't work very well for 1920x1080 output resolution? Muuukay?

[Konsolkongen]

Please compute why dot by dot wouldn't work very well for 1920x1080 output resolution? Muuukay?

No reason why it shouldn't work well in 1080p. Actually i would assume it looked better because of the higher resolution

[RGB32E]

I've already cranked through the numbers before.... scale 256x224 by a factor of 5, and what do you get?

And yes, I haven't messed much with the new functionality yet....

[RuffNEC]

do you get a picture with a MAK or PC Engine DUO RGB modded ? or is there also a sync problem on the U2311H ?

I ask again...

[RGB32E]

do you get a picture with a MAK or PC Engine DUO RGB modded ? or is there also a sync problem on the U2311H ?

I ask again...

Please better define the info you seek.

MAK?

Hu6260 RGB buffer config? RGB output and buffer implementations vary.... Are you asking how my particular RGB modded DUO behaves with B1 mode?

[Konsolkongen]

I've already cranked through the numbers before.... scale 256x224 by a factor of 5, and what do you get?

And yes, I haven't messed much with the new functionality yet....

1280x1120. Do you know for a fact that the Pixel Mapping option scales by 5 in 1080p? Too bad you can't adjust that yourself
Shame that the SNES has such a shitty square resolution

[RuffNEC]

do you get a picture with a MAK or PC Engine DUO RGB modded ? or is there also a sync problem on the U2311H ?

I ask again...

Please better define the info you seek.

MAK?

Hu6260 RGB buffer config? RGB output and buffer implementations vary.... Are you asking how my particular RGB modded DUO behaves with B1 mode?

I mean a MAK supergun for pcbs... do you have one? I don't know my PCE RGB output configuration sorry

[Konsolkongen]

MKL will your sync mod on the MegaDrive 1 work with a 32X?

I actually found a 8 pin din plug in my house and have now modified the composite sync to be Right channel and mono audio is now Left channel. Works great but now i only have your modified sync in the socket, which works fine on the XRGB-3 right now, but will it work if i connect a 32X to the MegaDrive?

Also the picture is the same as when using the D-sub socket... but it's good enough i guess

EDIT: Pictures of the mod:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1281464095
Resistors are in the cable

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1281464095

Ristar in 60 and 50Hz:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1281464168

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1281464215
Notice how the game runs in a higher resolution when in 50Hz. As far as i can count 320x240px. Crazy stuff

[darthcloud]

MKL will your sync mod on the MegaDrive 1 work with a 32X?

I actually found a 8 pin din plug in my house and have now modified the composite sync to be Right channel and mono audio is now Left channel. Works great but now i only have your modified sync in the socket, which works fine on the XRGB-3 right now, but will it work if i connect a 32X to the MegaDrive?

Also the picture is the same as when using the D-sub socket... but it's good enough i guess

EDIT: Pictures of the mod:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1281464095
Resistors are in the cable

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1281464095

Ristar in 60 and 50Hz:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1281464168

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1281464215
Notice how the game runs in a higher resolution when in 50Hz. As far as i can count 320x240px. Crazy stuff

I'm using the sync mod with my genesis 2 and it work fine with a 32x, the 32x sync itself is ok but the genesis part of the picture will not sync without the mod for me, with the mod everything is ok (I've put the modified sync to the usual sync pin btw):D

[Konsolkongen]

Ok kewl. I was worried that the 32X would only sync with the composite pin on the MegaDrive

[Konsolkongen]

In case anyone in the world cares here is how to get the perfect B1 picture using the Gefen VGA to DVI scaler plus.

Set the XRGB-3 in B1 mode and 640x480 resolution (this matters for some reason...).

Set the Gefen to 1080p output resolution, set the scaling to Panscan Full, H-position: 0, Clock: 99, Phase: 0.

Use the XRGB-3's menu to check if the pixelwidth now looks the same. Menu > Picture > Brightness - The the vertical slider lines should now all look exactly the same.

I tried several Capcom CPS2 games (on Saturn) and overscan is not an issue The pixels are perfect and all even sized, no waviness at all when the screen is scrolling. Awesome

So that's a fix to the "Bad Scaling" problem mentioned in the Wiki. Actually there is nothing wrong with the XRGB-3 so i think this part should be removed. Unfortunately i haven't been able to get perfect square pixels using any other output resolution than 1080p on the Gefen.

[Fudoh]

Actually there is nothing wrong with the XRGB-3 so i think this part should be removed.

What's puzzling me up to date is why this matters so much even on classic 320 pixel width systems. I mean, really, none of the vintage systems had resolutions over 320 pixels in width, right ? ("doubled" resolutions like the PCE's 512x224 are a different beast).
The MD for example is running on clean 320 pixels, the NG as well (with some games going down two 8-pixel columns to 304 pixels).

Once we're talking 480i or 480p signals, then it's alright, 720 pixels are the standard here.

Eventually it's the XRGB who just can't handle the difference. The doubled 640 pixels (from the 320 pixel input) are somehow put onto a 720x480p signal. Ideally the XRGB would switch between two output resolutions in B1. A real VGA timing (640x480) for 320 width sources and a 480p ED timing (720x480) for 720 width signals.

I understand that with lower res signals (e.g. PCE or SFC with only 256 pixels width), the 720 pixel output version gives more room for proper scaling than a standard 640x480 output, but on the other hand, it would be great if the user could choose himself what exactly is output. But as said before, I don't see Micomsoft put any work into the B1 mode, not on the XRGB-3 and not on a successor.

[Konsolkongen]

Actually there is nothing wrong with the XRGB-3 so i think this part should be removed.

What's puzzling me up to date is why this matters so much even on classic 320 pixel width systems. I mean, really, none of the vintage systems had resolutions over 320 pixels in width, right ? ("doubled" resolutions like the PCE's 512x224 are a different beast).
The MD for example is running on clean 320 pixels, the NG as well (with some games going down two 8-pixel columns to 304 pixels).

Actually no. That's why i mentioned the CPS2 games on Saturn which runs in a slightly wider resolution (as does the original Arcade PCB's). Here are a few shots i took a while back showing the different width on Saturn games (look at the tape):


Metal Slug running in 304x224 (proper arcade resolution)


KOF 96 running in 320x224 (MVS version is 304x224)


Vampire Saviour is a bit wider than 320


In Sonic JAM the overscan area are easy to make out

[Konsolkongen]

Got this PM from Em0ti0n:

Hi,

Thanks for the fix

Well, it doesn't work for me actually. I know you are the Optoma owner, do you have connected the Gefen to the Optoma to do the "final" scaling? If so, what settings do you have set on the Optoma?

Thanks
Roman

Hope it's alright that i answer it here as it might interest other people as well

I'm not using the Optoma for this as the scaling from the Gefen is pretty good on its own. I just accidentally pressed the auto adjust button on the Gefen so now my previous H-position values doesn't match anymore. So ignore that and center image yourself The rest of the values still applies:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1281564622

Make sure that you set the Gefens output to 1080p60 and that any overscan on your TV's side is disabled if possible. Last but not least make sure that your XRGB-3 outputs in 640x480 EVEN when using it in B1 mode. Go to Advanced > Status Screen to display the current resolution on the screen:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1281564739

The picture should now be perfect:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1281564799

If that doesn't work for you then there might be differences in our Gefen units. I got mine brand new a few weeks ago firmware version 4.9.

Hope that helps

[Fudoh]

Last but not least make sure that your XRGB-3 outputs in 640x480 EVEN when using it in B1 mode

what's the visible difference in not doing this ??

[Konsolkongen]

If it's set to anything else i can't seem to get rid of the moire patterns. It doesn't make any sense to me either but remember when i showed you the Phantasy Star 4 shots where the thickness of the vertical lines shifted when switching between the XRGB-3's resolutions? It does have some effect apparently...

[Konsolkongen]

Any news of an English translation of the new firmware and XRGB-tool?

[akumajo]

My contact is back since a few days. It will be released when it's done .

They are busy on internal projects but dont worry they are still working on XRGB3, they showed me an interesting new feature that may come for XRGB3 (cant say more ).

[RGB32E]

My contact is back since a few days. It will be released when it's done .

They are busy on internal projects but dont worry they are still working on XRGB3, they showed me an interesting new feature that may come for XRGB3 (cant say more ).

あなたはかなりいじめている場合ではありません!

Can't wait to see what Micomsoft has in store for us! ... it better be good!

[RGB32E]

If it's set to anything else i can't seem to get rid of the moire patterns. It doesn't make any sense to me either but remember when i showed you the Phantasy Star 4 shots where the thickness of the vertical lines shifted when switching between the XRGB-3's resolutions? It does have some effect apparently...

Could you illustrate what you mean by moire patterns? (very familiar with the term as it applies to CRTs)

[Konsolkongen]

Could you illustrate what you mean by moire patterns? (very familiar with the term as it applies to CRTs)

Don't know if moire is the right term but this picture should clarify:

[RGB32E]

Could you illustrate what you mean by moire patterns? (very familiar with the term as it applies to CRTs)

Don't know if moire is the right term but this picture should clarify:

Now that's an illustration! FIGHT!!! Yeah, now I know what you mean... not sure what the correct term would be, but that's one of the reasons why I've been frustrated by B1 mode...

[Konsolkongen]

That was my main problem with B1 mode. All fixed with the Gefen

[RGB32E]

Superb work Konsolkongen!!!

What's the model of the Gefen... you just gave me a bad itch...

EDIT:

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=4341



Ack... just as expensive as the XRGB-3!!!

[G Nohman]

I have a question about my XRGB-2+ so hopefully that's reasonably on topic.

When I bought my first HDTV, I picked up an XRGB-2+ so I could play some classics systems (SNES, Genesis, Dreamcast) with proper de-interlacing and better colors than my TV's built-in upscaler. Even with some wavy horizontal lines, I'm pretty pleased with it, but I have a video issue with my Genesis and Dreamcast. The top 2inches or so of the picture is shifted to the right about 1 cm. No option I've tried corrects this. One day I even was able to play on my DC with the image looking correct, but after a while that top 2" started flickering between where it should be & being offset to the right before eventually just staying shifted to the right like usual.
I'm hooking up the aforementioned systems' composite video into the XRGB-2+ and then running VGA into my TV.

My goal is to get my Genesis & Dreamcast to display properly when run through the XRGB-2+ without that weird shift in the top of the image.

[Konsolkongen]

RGB32E>

A bit cheaper on eBay
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?rt=nc&LH_BI ... 86.c0.m283

Mine is gray and some of those are black/blue. Don't think there is any difference...?

If i remember correctly you have the original Dreamcast VGA box? With the Gefen you can also get rid of these patterns on Dreamcast as well as it apparently outputs 720x480 as well.

Normal:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1282080959
Fixed:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1282080872

For some reason the Gefen detects the Dreamcast signal as 640x480 but just use the auto-adjust feature and the picture will be perfect. This way the Gefen will actually move the Clock-slider beyond its limit thus making the picture wider than you can set manually.
That the Gefen sees DC as 640x480 and XRGB-3 as 720x480 is actually a very nice thing. The Gefen stores different H&V-positions and Clock&Phase settings for different resolutions. So just switch the VGA cable and you are good to go

Made a DC VGA box last week for a friend of mine, using the widely known internal VGA mod but in a box instead The picture was damn good if i must say so myself, but unfortunately i wasn't able to get rid of these patterns using that. Strange but i'm sure my friend will be happy with it

[Fudoh]

What's the model of the Gefen... you just gave me a bad itch...

The Gefen's not actually neccessary. All you need is a display or device which is able to properly "see" 720x480 on the VGA input and misinterpretate the signal as VGA (640x480). Konsolkongen uses the Gefen to upscale the picture to 1080p while I just used to for VGA to DVI conversion since my Sony's HDMI can properly tell 480p from VGA while the VGA input takes both as 640x480.

[Fudoh]

I'm hooking up the aforementioned systems' composite video into the XRGB-2+

why would you do that ? The thing you describe can be fixed on the XRGB-3 with the AFC setting. On the XRGB-2+ I never experienced anything like this, at least not with proper RGB signals from those two systems. I would suggest you get a RGB cable for your Mega Drive and try again. For DC, why do you use an upscaler after all ? Too many not-VGA-compatible games ? Direct VGA to your display beats the deinteralcing through the XRGB-2+.

[Konsolkongen]

I wonder what the chances are for a Linux version of the XRGB-tool

[G Nohman]

why would you do that ? The thing you describe can be fixed on the XRGB-3 with the AFC setting. On the XRGB-2+ I never experienced anything like this, at least not with proper RGB signals from those two systems. I would suggest you get a RGB cable for your Mega Drive and try again. For DC, why do you use an upscaler after all ? Too many not-VGA-compatible games ? Direct VGA to your display beats the deinteralcing through the XRGB-2+.

A mix of laziness and trying to keep costs down by reusing what cables I already had.
I've got a Genesis 2/Megadrive 2 RGB-21 cable on the way to see if that helps at all.

Any suggestions on who makes a good DC VGA box or do they all work well? I see a lot of generics on eBay and the official one goes for a lot more.