Why shmups are such a niche genre

[Zigfried the Trizealot]

Elitism isn't bad. If there's no elite, then there's nothing to be mastered -- and if there's nothing to be mastered, then it's not worth playing.

We live in the Twitter age, in which most people won't bother to try to improve their performance at anything, as they're content with doing what is easy over and over. Those are the people that most mainstream sites write towards. I'm better than that, I know I'm better than that, and I expect the people I associate with to be better than that. There will always be bottom-dwellers, many of whom will never rise above their status, but there must always be something more to achieve: something elite. The vilification of "elitism" -- the vilification of striving towards something higher and expecting the same from others -- leads to stagnation, decay, and eventual collapse.

People should stop using/reacting to the word as an insult.

[Acid King]

The vilification of "elitism" -- the vilification of striving towards something higher and expecting the same from others -- leads to stagnation, decay, and eventual collapse.

People should stop using/reacting to the word as an insult.

It's because it's synonymous with being a snob and since when is snobbery a desired trait to anyone? Just as there is a difference between harsh but fair criticism and being an asshole, there's a difference between having high standards and acting as though your tastes confer some status upon you that makes it ok to treat other people like shit.

[Klatrymadon]

Mmm. It also strikes me that elitism doesn't quite mean what a lot of gamers think it means, and anti-elitism certainly doesn't (or shouldn't) involve scorning the pursuit of excellence or excusing mediocrity, which you'd be hard pressed to find anybody doing here.

[Ed Oscuro]

The vilification of "elitism" -- the vilification of striving towards something higher and expecting the same from others -- leads to stagnation, decay, and eventual collapse.

People should stop using/reacting to the word as an insult.

It's because it's synonymous with being a snob and since when is snobbery a desired trait to anyone?

I thought the Shooting Snobs were alright

[ubersaurus]

I read an interesting article on why pinball is really niche these days, and it reminded me an awful lot of the shooter genre (and fighters, particularly in the 90s).

Essentially, the major fans of the genre kept demanding games that could challenge them, but this had the adverse effect of making the games too hardcore and difficult for your average player to jump in and play without getting wiped out immediately. You see this today with pinball games that are very hard compared to some older games to last very long on. You also saw this in the 90s with increasingly complex fighting games, such as Street Fighter Alpha 3, Capcom vs. SNK 2, and Guilty Gear X, which only the hardcore players could really manage the learning curve. And again, you see this with bullet hell shooters. The large majority of my friends who don't really play the genre that often take one look at something like Mushihime or Triggerheart and decide they don't even want to attempt something that throws that much firepower at you.

As a result you have a niche genre that leads to few releases and few new players. In the case of fighters, Capcom realized that if they made a fighting game with depth that was still appealing to people who don't care about frame data and matchups, they could capture both crowds with a minimum of grumbling from either side. Arcsys did the same with BlazBlue compared to Guilty Gear, though most people I've talked to prefer their previous franchise (for balance reasons or whatever else.) I don't think there's a whole lot of shmup companies making that jump, though. They just keep appealing to their hardcore audience.

[RNGmaster]

How's this for another breach of your cherished forum etiquette: I don't care enough for what you're saying to do anything but skim it. I've already read this thread through twice* before you thought it warranted (apparently it is, after all, "serious" enough to register for a board one apparently doesn't care about and start writing absolute nonsense), and I didn't care what you would've had to say then, either.

It's 1:13 here, my eyes should be getting tired, and I'm not making any apologies for speed-reading through more of the same drivel from pages ago. And you get not a single apology for having missed the subtly hidden sarcasm of -1 point font text. Buried text = SUPER SUBTLE & HILARIOUS SARCASM TECHNIQUE. Groucho Marx hid all his best jokes in the top left corner of the film. Gets me every time!

Thanks for bringing ad hominem attacks into play though. And congratulations on reading all 33 pages of this nonsense. That was a really effective use of your time, huh? How about instead of wasting your time trying to "talk sense" (or whatever it is you think you're up to) with crusty elitists, go play a game of something you enjoy, or do something that is otherwise productive.

*FORUM ETIQUETTE demands there be an explaining remark here: This statement may or may not be true, and I don't care either way.

I should not have said anything. Not because I offended you, but because my arguments have absolutely no effect. Since you're evidently too tired to read through what I said, here's the cliffs notes: You say that you do not care for anything I said, but evidently the fact that I rescinded some of my more inflammatory statements was beneath your notice. I am not trying to talk sense into elitists - I said that there are no elitists here in the sense there are on FTG forums. You got WAY too pissed off about being branded an elitist, and evidently refused to read anything else I said, deeming it stupid, trolly garbage. Likely you will only glance through this post, and will again refuse to listen to anything I say, but I don't consider it a waste of time. Although having to argue with just one person after pacifying everyone else is kind of a bummer. (Seriously, BIL and Acid King were willing to listen to my justifications for saying "elitist", and their latest posts are not as hostile to me as yours are.)

The tate thing was an offhand remark. Chill, man. Don't take things so seriously. And the ad hominem attacks were a flat-out mistake. Sorry about that.

Oh, and actually on topic:

As a result you have a niche genre that leads to few releases and few new players. In the case of fighters, Capcom realized that if they made a fighting game with depth that was still appealing to people who don't care about frame data and matchups, they could capture both crowds with a minimum of grumbling from either side. Arcsys did the same with BlazBlue compared to Guilty Gear, though most people I've talked to prefer their previous franchise (for balance reasons or whatever else.) I don't think there's a whole lot of shmup companies making that jump, though. They just keep appealing to their hardcore audience.

Nice point, and why the hell haven't we made more games analogous to BlazBlue?

[Zeron]

Why can't this thread just die already.


Damn me contributing is a reason why it's not dying either.
If you can this "contributing"

It's up to the mods in the end.

[RNGmaster]

Hey, we're almost to 1000GET! Don't stop now, shmuppers!

[CptRansom]

I hope the 999th post is a mod locking this. One can dream.

[Puddleglum]

This seems like a relevant enough place to post this. My apologies for showing up new to a forum and proceeding to flog what appears to be the resident dead horse.

I found these forums through searching for discussions on Sin & Punishment 2. I poked around a bit and was surprised to find such an active forum dedicated to a niche genre. Very cool. Anyways, I don't have much experience with Shmups, mainly I rented Gradius and R-Type games a few times in the 16-bit era, and I remember playing Raiden a number of times at the local Pizza Hut.

I'm coming to the point soon. After reading around here, I thought, hmm, maybe I'll check out some of these other shooters. I saw a few people mention DoDonPachi, and it was high in that "top 25" list, so I took it for a spin in MAME. I figured I'd like it b/c of my fond memories of getting all powered up in Raident and blasting the world to bits. I played through it twice using an untold number of credits, and I had a hard time enjoying it. Maybe I didn't give it long enough.

From the get go my weapon seemed kind of ridiculous, and within what seemed like no more than a minute, I had it all maxed out. So I'm spewing firepower all over the screen, asploding enemies left and right, and dodging an even more insane amount of bullets. And it's awesome in one sense, but unsatisfying in another. The problem I had with the game was at that point, I hardly even got to look at the things I was shooting at. I'm just dodging bullets and returning fire to whatever happens to be in front of me. So there's all these beautiful ships and tanks and stuff attacking me, but I don't even really get to see them because a) all my attention is on not getting hit by the metric ton of bullets on the screen, and b) half the stuff gets blown up by my ridiculous laser the second it comes onto the screen.

I just didn't feel like I got as much enjoyment out of frantically trying to weave my tiny ship with it's 2-pixel by 2-pixel hitbox through a dense matrix of bullets, as I do, e.g., in blasting cool stuff in S&P2. For me the fun in a shooter is primarily in the shooting, and not the evading. I have the impression from reading around here that that most modern shmups are this "bullet hell" style of game, and I can't say that appeals as much to me as a game like S&P2.

So my question is, is DoDonPachi representative of most modern shooters? (I realize it's 13 years old at this point) Is the main draw of the games navigating bullet fields? Or maybe I'm missing a perspective that would help me enjoy the game more? Because at this point my crazy theory is that the genre is niche not because people don't enjoy hard games, but rather they don't enjoy one or more of the core gameplay elements of the genre (bullet hell navigation to be specific). Recent games like S&P2, SMG2, and Mega Man 9 have all been praised in mainstream press, and their difficultly specifically mentioned as a positive aspect of the games.

[Puddleglum]

Just one last thing, I hope I didn't come off as condescending, or as speaking harshly about a game that his held in high regard. I'll never begrudge anyone for liking a particular game or genre. It's a hobby, not a job (for most of us), so I say play what you enjoy. More power to those of you here who have the skill and patience to master these games.

[CptRansom]

*waste of the 1000th post in this thread*

Dammit. MY HOPES AND DREAMS - SHATTERED!

[Puddleglum]

*waste of the 1000th post in this thread*

Dammit. MY HOPES AND DREAMS - SHATTERED!

Oh, sorry about that.

[BIL]

So my question is, is DoDonPachi representative of most modern shooters? (I realize it's 13 years old at this point)

Yes, with the qualification that most modern (last five years or so) shooters are also produced by Cave, DDP's developer. Lots of slower bullets as opposed to Raiden's sparse, quick ones are the more common style these days.

Raiden IV would probably be a good recent shooter for you to try (it has an excellent 360 port with a US release). It maintains the sniping, minimalist bullets of the earlier games moreso than any recent shooter I'm aware of.

[Octopod]

Raiden 4 is the shit dude. Raiden 3 is awesome too is you have a PS2.

[Acid King]

So my question is, is DoDonPachi representative of most modern shooters? (I realize it's 13 years old at this point) Is the main draw of the games navigating bullet fields? Or maybe I'm missing a perspective that would help me enjoy the game more? Because at this point my crazy theory is that the genre is niche not because people don't enjoy hard games, but rather they don't enjoy one or more of the core gameplay elements of the genre (bullet hell navigation to be specific). Recent games like S&P2, SMG2, and Mega Man 9 have all been praised in mainstream press, and their difficultly specifically mentioned as a positive aspect of the games.

The main draw of modern shooters is the score systems and competing with others. I think the two reasons why people don't get into them is score play is largely lost on people now and people don't really get the skills needed to play them competently. The reason the games are so hard to people who don't play them is because their pattern recognition is shit. They just see a blob of bullets coming at them or they are too focused on the ship/avatar. If you can't read how a pattern is coming out of a boss or an enemy, you're not going to be able to avoid it. Relatively easy patterns become hard because people are too twitchy and move too much and never stop to consider how their movements affect the shots that are being fired at them or the trajectory of the pattern. The games aren't that hard that an average player couldn't complete them with time and practice, but until you pick up basic pattern recognition skills you won't get anywhere.

Ignorance of score play is another factor. Shooters don't force you to play for score. They give a choice in a way that modern games don't. Whereas Metal Gear Solid might be literally impossible without using stealth or Gears of War is impossible without using the cover mechanic, pretty much every shooting game can be beaten without even looking at the score counter. But score is why these games still have a following and why they still get produced for arcades. In order to get the most from a shooting game, you have to atleast try playing it for score.

A great man once said that when you play for score, you're playing by a different set of rules. The games change from mindless blast-a-thons to something much more strategic. You have to pay attention to how the enemies come out and think in terms of the mechanics of the score system. I'll second the Raiden IV recs and suggest that's a good game for new comers because of how straightforward the game and scoring system are. To get the most points you have to kill enemies as soon as they appear on screen, something you can't do if you're chilling at the bottom of the screen. In addition to that, the laser and spread shot are more powerful the closer you are to the enemy. Once you know that, you can kill larger enemies before they even have a chance to fire. The game wants you to play aggressively. Point blanking is an incredibly simple strategy but it's one that new players just wouldn't try and is something I've never seen mentioned in a review not written by a fan of the genre.

Go back to Dodonpachi and try to chain enemies and you'll see how the game changes. For one thing, you can't run all over the screen shooting stuff willy nilly, you have to stop firing at certain points and use different shot types, and the positioning of your ship becomes incredibly important for both chaining enemies and controlling where your enemies direct their fire. The game has a lot of praise on it because it's challenging and fun when you just ignore score and very rigorous and demanding when you play for score. Either you'll like how the game wants you to approach it or you won't, which, if you stick around and read the discussions on the games themselves, is usually the determining factor if whether or not the various posters here like a game.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Raiden III is better on the PC.

@Puddleglum
Tell you what, the thing about Cave games is that only playing them for the score is any fun (it's bloody difficult too). Played as "pure" shooters they feel queer and "meh" all around. I suppose you'd enjoy DonPachi (DDP's prequel) more than DDP. Especially the Hong Kong version (most difficult one) is recommended (you're gonna need two roms: US "parent" and Hong Kong "clone"). That being said, I enjoy Dangun Feveron more than each and every (D)DP I've ever played. The scoring in Feveron is simple (not easy, mind you) - you just have to collect all "disco men" (letting even one of them drift away ruins your score). Continuing, of course, is not allowed. There are two firing modes (tapping or holding a button). Dangun Feveron seems to be the favourite Cave game for those who are not into DDP.
Also, make use of this.

[drunkninja24]

So my question is, is DoDonPachi representative of most modern shooters? (I realize it's 13 years old at this point) Is the main draw of the games navigating bullet fields? Or maybe I'm missing a perspective that would help me enjoy the game more? Because at this point my crazy theory is that the genre is niche not because people don't enjoy hard games, but rather they don't enjoy one or more of the core gameplay elements of the genre (bullet hell navigation to be specific). Recent games like S&P2, SMG2, and Mega Man 9 have all been praised in mainstream press, and their difficultly specifically mentioned as a positive aspect of the games.

Bullet hell isn't everyone's cup of tea, but is the most actively-developed kind of shooters anymore (mostly due to Cave). If you have a 360, definitely check out Raiden IV and Raiden Fighters Aces, they seem like they'd be right up your alley. Perhaps Castle of Shikigami III on Wii as well. As for DDP and other Cave games, I think Acid King explained it well enough.

[Obiwanshinobi]

The game has a lot of praise on it because it's challenging and fun when you just ignore score and very rigorous and demanding when you play for score.

And who actually plays DDP not for the score, or praises it for being fun when you just ignore the score? Rather people complain that they can't stop chaining even if they want to, and those are people already hooked on the game.
Horses of courses and all that, but I think once the bullet hell novelty wears out on newcomers, they either get the hang of the scoring, or get put off by the silly looking hitbox and overall flamboyance.

[Puddleglum]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I definitely appreciate playing a game for a high score. I have spent probably 15 hours in the past 5 days chasing high scores in S&P2! I also don't think that going for a high score is a completely lost concept in the gaming world yet. The music genere (Guitar Hero, DDR, etc) definitely still has an emphasis on replay for high scores. Going even more casual, the other day my 14 year old cousin was bragging about beating some of my high scores in a few of the Wii Fit mini games. Part of the problem may be in whether or not the scoring system is exlpained or emphasized, but either way if someone doesn't enjoy a specific gameplay style or mechanic, they're not going to enjoy trying to get a high score out of it. That said, I probably should have read up on DDP's scoring system before playing it, since there's not exactly time to "figure it out" while you're playing. Just wondering, on cabinets for modern shooters, is it common to have the scoring system explained? (Chains, multipliers, bonuses, etc)

[gs68]

As I've mentioned previously, if you think this forum is bad, #shmups is worse at times.

[Acid King]

And who actually plays DDP not for the score, or praises it for being fun when you just ignore the score? Rather people complain that they can't stop chaining even if they want to, and those are people already hooked on the game.

Judging by the frequency that it comes up in "recommend me a 1cc" threads, I'd say plenty of people do. It wouldn't if playing for survival wasn't enjoyable. You can look at threads about chaining to see how people will ignore the chaining aspect because they don't like it in DDP and just play for survival.

Also, people aren't constantly playing it to maximize their score. If you look at threads on playing for survival vs. score or threads on chaining it's a mix of both. Even people with restart fever will ignore chaining/scoring at a certain point in the game to just survive.

[Exarion]

Just wondering, on cabinets for modern shooters, is it common to have the scoring system explained? (Chains, multipliers, bonuses, etc)

Yes, and more modern ones even have an ingame tutorial. If you don't like bullet hell, just focus on shmups made before 1995. There are a lot of good games there, and none of them get as dense as DDP.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

personally i think most arcade shmups are abit too hard for many total noobs to get into and enjoy. Ild recommend noobs who dont yet have the hand - eye co-orination for dodging the bullets in a full on arcade shmup to first play indie / doujin or even console shmups as these tend to be alot easier to play as they have slower or simple patterns of bullets or have more lives per credit and other things to keep the player longer in a game without using an continue (like shields or autobomb) then an arcade shmup.

Games ild rcommend are- Blue Wish Reserrection Plus (BWR is abit harder) and Eden's Aegis by X.X games, Demolition Gunner ISAD (the ISAD version has an extra bullet hell like mode which is easy to beat). Wrath, get it here http://page.freett.com/harduserki/wrath_dl.html

Also try these as they make excellent 'pratice shmups' and are very addictivly fun: Nomltest FS, Reincarnation, Get it here http://d.hatena.ne.jp/ykkb/00000003, Warning forever, and the kento Cho shmups Parsec 47 and Rrootage.

All are freeware and allot of fun, great for developing a shmuppers skills.

[JoshF]

And who actually plays DDP not for the score, or praises it for being fun when you just ignore the score?

Why Shumps is such a niche forum.

What? You play Donkey Kong Country without collecting 99 balloons?

[Obiwanshinobi]

And who actually plays DDP not for the score, or praises it for being fun when you just ignore the score? Rather people complain that they can't stop chaining even if they want to, and those are people already hooked on the game.

Judging by the frequency that it comes up in "recommend me a 1cc" threads, I'd say plenty of people do. It wouldn't if playing for survival wasn't enjoyable. You can look at threads about chaining to see how people will ignore the chaining aspect because they don't like it in DDP and just play for survival.

Aren't they, by any chance, people who can't stand bigger hitboxes anymore? Just a thought.

Also, people aren't constantly playing it to maximize their score. If you look at threads on playing for survival vs. score or threads on chaining it's a mix of both. Even people with restart fever will ignore chaining/scoring at a certain point in the game to just survive.

Restart fever is a compulsive behaviour, breaking/spoiling the game more than ignoring the score mechanics does. I'm not the one to teach people how to enjoy their gaming, but in my book restart fever is a sign that your scoring activity has became more compulsive than enjoyable. In other words, playing for the score is a way to get the most out of some shmups. Compulsive restarting, on the other hand, is a way to kill the fun.
In my case playing bullet hell games for the score is the only way to forget how silly the small hitbox looks. It still feels and looks like cheating to me.

[drunken starsailor]

I started my gaming career on cheap Zelda ripoffs and Final Fantasy, then moved to Touhou for about a year.

Dude no one cares. You're not impressing anyone. Drop the 'tude and fuck off.

But I'm a rare case, and not because I'm more motivated or skilled than the mythical "mouth-breathing CoD-playing masses" out there.

I know nothing of your experience with STGs, but I couldn't imagine you to be very skilled at them. You probably play 15 minutes of DDP a month just to reap bragging ammunition, to use against your friends.

So you sit here and brag and insult people and complain about "unfair" reviews, rather than getting off your asses and uploading Youtube videos that do justice to the genre and following through on the good ideas you've brought up.

WHAT THE FUCK???!! How is a Youtube video going to do justice to the genre?!

Great article BTW. The guy is a gigantic elitist though (can you tell my favorite word?)

I can also tell that you are a fagot with no manners. If you have a problem with any of the articles here, state why with good reasons; or just go to Gamefaqs. I'm sure they would love to hear your menstruation rants.

[nZero]

Chill with the ad hominem. Anyone who can't address points of disagreement without making a personal attack should just avoid posting.

[drunken starsailor]

I would argue that average gamers/music-listeners/etc... are not elitist enough, since most of them putter around the hobby with no standards or expectations beyond making sure that the game or music in question is socially-acceptable amongst their group of peers and Facebook friends.

I agree with this. For years people have flat out told me that they "hated" the bands/artists that I listen to--even friends. (Smashing Pumpkins, Team Sleep, Deftones, Erik Satie, Manabu Namiki, etc, etc.) But that sure as hell doesn't stop me from loving and praising them to high heavens. What else would I do? Throw my CDs away and buy Fallout Boy to feel more comfortable every time the topic of music is brought up with them? Hell no.

Having interests in obscure music, movies, and games can set you aside from everyone else; it draws people to you. Consequentially, plenty of people hate this.

[indutrial]

Having interests in obscure music, movies, and games can set you aside from everyone else; it draws people to you. Consequentially, plenty of people hate this.

I agree with that last line. Pretty much any niche interest I have is repellent to almost every person I interact with on a regular basis (co-workers, family members, friends I know from the music scene). My passions about things like old video games, classical music, old books, and video game music pretty much have to remain taboo lest I might commit the social gaffe of threatening somebody with something unknown or unpopular. I don't mean to sound pretentious, but I can almost feel my stock plummeting with other people when I talk about anything I like..anything at all! If I talk about shit like buying old Genesis games or this or that piece of chamber music that I got to see performed, I get treated like I'm some weirdo with Asperger's or something. Even amongst musicians I've known and worked with for years, I feel like I'm flooding the room with my uncool weirdness when I talk about how much I like the music in old Konami games, etc... It's a real pisser, since I know I'm not such a complete nerd that I come across like the horrid Simpson's comic book guy archetype - whenever I'm willing to join in talking about total bullshit or about some fucking trendy movie or game that I don't really care about, everyone's perfectly fine hearing what I have to say. People are so fuckin' shot these days.