Why shmups are such a niche genre

[AraraSPAMWitch]

This is my first post here after lurking for a while, but did someone really use the term "fag" in an essay, as well as using "limp-wristed" just a few paragraphs after? Seems like an awful lot of homophobia for an essay not about glory holes.

Hello, Thjodbjorn! Welcome to the internet! Please enjoy your stay.

Does Icy pay you to be a lapdog or is this something you actually want to do?

Guwange: a Presentation by Tom Cruise

This made me laugh.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Dora the Explorer in DeathSmiles

if DS ever goes PAL they should make it this^

YOU ARE HUGE FUCKING ELITISTS

IMO some of the elitism newcommers tend to frown upon is just part and parcel of shmup fandom and its competative nature (ie 1CC, scoring etc) both with other ppl and with themselves.

Im not a fighting game fan but i do wonder what its like on those forums all the FTG nuts live. Are we bigger dickheads then them?

[drunkninja24]

YOU ARE HUGE FUCKING ELITISTS

IMO some of the elitism newcommers tend to frown upon is just part and parcel of shmup fandom and its competative nature (ie 1CC, scoring etc) both with other ppl and with themselves.

Im not a fighting game fan but i do wonder what its like on those forums all the FTG nuts live. Are we bigger dickheads then them?

I really wonder where the "elitist" label comes from with people. It almost always seems to be thrown around, but honestly, I can't think of a time anyone new on here has been shat on for not knowing something or just being new in general. Most of the time that happens when newcomers come in and throw vague assumptions around, or if they display some gross ignorance and are corrected, they go "OMG ELITIST PRICK". I think the real issue in this regard is that some newcomers really think they know more than they do and get flustered when told otherwise.

I mean, shit, we're all new at some point. When I first joined, I didn't know jack about much outside of DDP and Raiden, and I certainly didn't have the hardware knowhow I do now. But it was thanks to the helpful advice of folks here and my own attitude that I was able to learn and enjoy these games even more.

[Zeron]

I have been lurking this board for quite a while but never really needed to post something due to all my questions already being answered in the search function.

Anyway I dont think this place is elitist at all if you ask some newb question they actually answer it and try to help you instead of other forums dedicated to a certain genre pretty much runs down to

YOU DONT KNOW HOW DO THAT? YOU FUCKING U SUCKS ASS you n00b id pwn your mother. and thats the entire thread.


pardon my bad english.

[Thjodbjorn]

I have been lurking this board for quite a while but never really needed to post something due to all my questions already being answered in the search function.

Anyway I dont think this place is elitist at all if you ask some newb question they actually answer it and try to help you instead of other forums dedicated to a certain genre pretty much runs down to

YOU DONT KNOW HOW DO THAT? YOU FUCKING U SUCKS ASS you n00b id pwn your mother. and thats the entire thread.


pardon my bad english.

that's been my feeling, too. I never got a feeling of elitism. People seem pretty friendly to new folk.

and except for the netspeak, I would not have thought you had bad English.

[RNGmaster]

IMO some of the elitism newcommers tend to frown upon is just part and parcel of shmup fandom and its competative nature (ie 1CC, scoring etc) both with other ppl and with themselves.

Im not a fighting game fan but i do wonder what its like on those forums all the FTG nuts live. Are we bigger dickheads then them?

Yeah, because we newcomers aren't used to it yet and we find it obnoxious. Maybe, though, we shouldn't get used to it. I think the elitism is what's keeping others out, and saying that "it's just part of shmup fandom" is a pretty lame excuse. And yeah, I do think that fighting game fans are about as obnoxious, but that's partly my hate of SSBB speaking. (Why the hell do people try to make such an obviously unbalanced game a competitive fighter? FOX ONLY NO ITEMS FINAL DESTINATION lol.)

Not saying you guys are elitists in the sense that you lord it over less-experienced shmup fans, but you do seem to have a holier-than-thou attitude towards the mainstream industry and most of pop culture. You think they're mouth-breathing retards who won't do anything challenging unless it's watered down and given a friendly face, That's a very hostile attitude towards the people you supposedly want to introduce shmups to.

[Jeneki]

Can we use this topic for requests?

Let's find a Bemani forum and all make new accounts, then talk about how we just played DJ Hero and it's the best most complex game ever and Guitar Hero Dragonforce is the most hardcore music in the world.

[CptRansom]

You think they're mouth-breathing retards who won't do anything challenging unless it's watered down and given a friendly face, That's a very hostile attitude towards the people you supposedly want to introduce shmups to.

Yeah, well, the truth hurts.

[indutrial]

Branding people "elitist" amidst any group of passionate hobbyists/enthusiasts is usually a defense mechanism of people who aren't comfortable knowing that they're largely on the outside of something. Those who are called elitists usually embrace that branding if only to avoid having to justify themselves to those lower types of people.

In the music world, lots of musicians who wholeheartedly embrace things like jazz and modern classical music get similarly branded as 'elitists' even though they're just approaching the genre of music in the same unpretentious way they have approached it all along. As with the shmup and fighting-game communities in the gaming world, any of them who have self-respect are well-versed in ignoring that bullshit and getting on with their days.

I would argue that average gamers/music-listeners/etc... are not elitist enough, since most of them putter around the hobby with no standards or expectations beyond making sure that the game or music in question is socially-acceptable amongst their group of peers and Facebook friends.

but you do seem to have a holier-than-thou attitude towards the mainstream industry and most of pop culture. You think they're mouth-breathing retards who won't do anything challenging unless it's watered down and given a friendly face, That's a very hostile attitude towards the people you supposedly want to introduce shmups to.

People with niche interests should always be able to let off some steam about larger networks of people whose establishment does nothing but clip their interest-group's wings. What's the point of pussy-footing around a big dumb public that wouldn't visit this forum in a million years?

[BIL]

You think they're mouth-breathing retards who won't do anything challenging unless it's watered down and given a friendly face, That's a very hostile attitude towards the people you supposedly want to introduce shmups to.

The shoe fits, unfortunately. Also, you'll notice a lot of us here aren't interested in introducing shooters to the mainstream. We'll still point out the ignorance in "30 minutes to beat, then worthless" comments and reviews.

[indutrial]

You think they're mouth-breathing retards who won't do anything challenging unless it's watered down and given a friendly face, That's a very hostile attitude towards the people you supposedly want to introduce shmups to.

The shoe fits, unfortunately. Also, you'll notice a lot of us here aren't interested in introducing shooters to the mainstream. We'll still point out the ignorance in "30 minutes to beat, then worthless" comments and reviews.

Most shmup fans are so passionate about their games that they're not interested in keeping their genre in an elitist state. It stays elitist in the face of everyone else because of the players' refusals to subsume their gaming interests to the demands of the larger community. By and large, shmup fans seem pretty open to letting as many new people in as possible, so as long as none of those people show up with a bunch of dumb PR ideas about how the genre needs to change to suit modern gaming socially-anxious "everybody wins" bullshit in some way.

That article about arcade-gaming is definitely pretty hostile-sounding, but the overall message is clearly not aimed at making that type of gaming insular.

[RNGmaster]

I would argue that average gamers/music-listeners/etc... are not elitist enough, since most of them putter around the hobby with no standards or expectations beyond making sure that the game or music in question is socially-acceptable amongst their group of peers and Facebook friends.

Well then by that standard I'm enormously elitist, I'm just not hostile towards people who aren't in the club.

Also, you'll notice a lot of us here aren't interested in introducing shooters to the mainstream. We'll still point out the ignorance in "30 minutes to beat, then worthless" comments and reviews.

And that's fine, but you're complaining that shmups are niche. The only way to make them mainstream is to get more people involved, and we certainly can't do that if we think the only way to get them involved is to water them down for the idiots that apparently surround us.

[Acid King]

And that's fine, but you're complaining that shmups are niche. The only way to make them mainstream is to get more people involved, and we certainly can't do that if we think the only way to get them involved is to water them down for the idiots that apparently surround us.

Usually watering them down is what people who aren't into them want developers to do. A lot of the stuff mainstream game reviewers and gamers complain about in relation to shooting games are aspects of the genre we all take as a given and changing them means fundamentally altering the games in ways that no one in the community wants. The way to get more people involved is by having a place where newly interested players are respected, can learn about the genre and compete with other players. Petty grumbling about the wider gaming community aside, I think this place does that well enough.

[BIL]

And that's fine, but you're complaining that shmups are niche.

No I'm not. Read this entire tedious, circuitous thread before you start throwing blanket statements around. I and several others have already stated we're perfectly content with the genre's mainstream standing.

We'll still point out the ignorance often shown to these games by mainstream media / forumites. Personally it's not worth the effort, but inevitably some of it gets posted on here, and it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

The only way to make them mainstream is to get more people involved, and we certainly can't do that if we think the only way to get them involved is to water them down for the idiots that apparently surround us.

This forum has more helpful, informative posts in it than I believe you're aware of.

Well then by that standard I'm enormously elitist, I'm just not hostile towards people who aren't in the club.

Link me to some of the hostility you claim this forum shows to newcomers. I alone have made dozens of posts over the years that directly contradict your claim, and I can think of several others who've done much the same.

If you're talking about the reaction to "shmupsorrow" in this thread, blowhards like that will just have to take their lumps. "Your games are shit" will be met with a "GTFO" on most forums. I've never seen anyone come here with an open mind and receive the kind of hostility you're talking about.

[indutrial]

Petty grumbling about the wider gaming community...

While some of it is certainly petty and cheap, it seems in line since the wider gaming community's institutions are responsible for making it annoyingly difficult to partake in the niche genres. Things like Microsoft voting down Cave's XBLA ideas and the sluggish release schedule of America's Virtual Console feel like frustratingly unnecessary setbacks for a genre that's already covered in dirt as far as the common consumer goes.

[doctorx0079]

Just want to add that new members would do well to lurk for a month or so before posting. I was taught this as standard netiquette. It seems like we are getting some new members on here lately who are just jumping in with a bunch of unwarranted assumptions.

[xris]

For the actual topic of niche, I would like to bring up the matter of tate. Go ahead and try to explain why you have a tv flipped onto it's side.

[RNGmaster]

Link me to some of the hostility you claim this forum shows to newcomers. I alone have made dozens of posts over the years that directly contradict your claim, and I can think of several others who've done much the same.

If you're talking about the reaction to "shmupsorrow" in this thread, blowhards like that will just have to take their lumps. "Your games are shit" will be met with a "GTFO" on most forums. I've never seen anyone come here with an open mind and receive the kind of hostility you're talking about.

Yeah, I read the entire thread. You won't find much content that's hostile to new shmuppers, that's true. I'd say you guys are enormously gracious and kind to new blood, even if they make really incendiary first posts . But you are hostile to the mainstream gaming community and reviewers in general - I don't need to link, there have been plenty of posts to this effect within this thread. We can't be surprised if reviewers think we're a community of insular, arrogant, elitist bullies when there's such venom spewed towards them on these boards.

And tate is really strange, even to me. Not many people are hardcore enough to do irreparable damage to their TV joke! just so they can play games the way they were "meant to" be played.

[indutrial]

But you are hostile to the mainstream gaming community and reviewers in general - I don't need to link, there have been plenty of posts to this effect within this thread. We can't be surprised if reviewers think we're a community of insular, arrogant, elitist bullies when there's such venom spewed towards them on these boards.

From this community's point of view, it's a tragicomic situation to see a modern game reviewer put in a position where he/she has to pass off an opinion on a genre that has become impossible to understand in the context of American gaming and, moreover, from the vantage point of modern game criticism. It feels like you're reading a Rolling Stone writer's too-hip-to-be-square musings about a Bartok string quartet or Stravinsky ballet. The basics are usually there but nothing about the reviews sound more convincing than what you might here from a clerk at the closest Gamestop.

Rather than think we're a bunch of pricks, the modern gaming establishment likely doesn't think of the shmup community at all, to the point where it doesn't matter how much attitude people throw around. As I've said before, most modern gamers are too wrapped up in trying to stay hip to as many "triple-A" (and hipster) titles as possible and don't have time to give a shit what a bunch of Cave or Psikyo fans think of anything. One of my good friends is a gamer of that ilk and just considers my love for shmups an incomprehensible oddity. Rather than even attempt to meet me halfway, he'll just keep trying to convince me to buy an American 360 so I can tell him what I think of Mass Effect.

And tate is really strange, even to me. Not many people are hardcore enough to do irreparable damage to their TV joke! just so they can play games the way they were "meant to" be played.

I didn't bother tate-ing until I got my Dreamcast and tried it with Ikaruga and Gunbird 2. While it does massively improve the games, I don't feel that it's 100% necessary to weigh the idea on newer adherents. I got into shmups as a fan of horizontal games like Gradius III, UN Squadron, and R-Type and feel that those kinds of games are the easiest entry points for potential American fans. I didn't get into tate-able titles until I was deeply interested in the genre and importing used Japanese stuff (a bit much to ask of a newbie).

[BIL]

But you are hostile to the mainstream gaming community and reviewers in general - I don't need to link, there have been plenty of posts to this effect within this thread. We can't be surprised if reviewers think we're a community of insular, arrogant, elitist bullies when there's such venom spewed towards them on these boards.

Mainstream reviewers and their audience don't seem aware of this community, let alone put off by it. Easily the most lambasted mainstream view is the smug "too short, too easy (score: 0,000,009)" line, yet it's still a fixture of GS / IGN reviews and commentary. I don't believe the anti-blockbuster mindset prevalent in this place can be having that much effect, when the mainstream still doesn't get why you'd ever replay an arcade game.

Anyone bothered enough to register here will hopefully realise nobody (normal) on this forum has a problem with them personally, just the popular misconception of these games lacking depth.

[RNGmaster]

Mainstream reviewers and their audience don't seem aware of this community, let alone put off by it. Easily the most lambasted mainstream view is the smug "too short, too easy (score: 0,000,009)" line, yet it's still a fixture of GS / IGN reviews and commentary. I don't believe the anti-blockbuster mindset prevalent in this place can be having that much effect, when the mainstream still doesn't get why you'd ever replay an arcade game.

Anyone bothered enough to register here will hopefully realise nobody (normal) on this forum has a problem with them personally, just the popular misconception of these games lacking depth.

Dammit, you're right. I know no mainstream reviewers read this board. That was the stupidest mistake I made. Yeah, and everybody on this forum is acquainted enough with shmups to be free of those misconceptions. You win! Fifty million points to you, good sir! But you bombed three times, so you miss out on the Ura loop.

[doctorx0079]

But you bombed three times, so you miss out on the Ura loop.

i lol'ed

u win 3 internets

[AraraSPAMWitch]

Im not a fighting game fan but i do wonder what its like on those forums all the FTG nuts live. Are we bigger dickheads then them?

I'd say fighting game forums are generally more hostile than here. Currently, fighting games have almost the opposite problem of shooters; with BlazBlue and SSFIV came a considerable influx of new and inexperienced players and the people used to having serious discussions about the game suddenly had hundreds of people flood in to talk about how Arakune's fucking story or ask what a link combo is etc...

From what I remember, when SFIV first reached console people at the shoryuken forums were being such assholes to the newcomers that the admins made a post asking people to be welcoming and helpful or something. Of course in person most people I've met in the community are really helpful and chill, but things are often different online.

So no, I don't think you can really compare the two. There really aren't enough new players interested enough in the genre. It's only when people come in and act like moralizing assholes, diagnosing the psychological neuroses of the shmupper do people get pissy.

[doctorx0079]

On shoryuken it's all like, "Here are all the reasons SSBB is broken" vs. "No it's not", and "SSBB shouldn't be in EVO" vs. "Well it is, too bad" etc. A lot less holy wars around here. And I know why they do it, they need other people to play the same game as them because playing against the CPU is boring. They play the same game for years and dedicate themselves to it and then they want everyone else to play it too. A certain amound of grandstanding and bashing is inevitable. But DO read the FAQs and strategy guides before bugging people.

[RNGmaster]

It's only when people come in and act like moralizing assholes, diagnosing the psychological neuroses of the shmupper do people get pissy.

[Ed Oscuro]

y'know when you start saying things like "irreparable damage to your tv" I think that perhaps safety is very important to your gaming, so here's an N64 controller you can control with your mouth, and here's a helmet, go for it with honor

as for the elitism charges, to echo BIL and Acid King again: what

There is nothing unreasonable about trying to defend a type of gameplay that works (mind, I'm more of a Toaplan fan, less of the Cave era stuff, though I occasionally get into the chaining games) from calls to "mainstream" it and whatever. Everybody would like more shooters, but not at the cost of quality. I would love hand-drawn 4K (yo 1080p is passe) visuals on everything but simple economics prevents that.

Silly (also unflattering!*) example but I think it cuts to the chase of what this nonsense is about:

You wouldn't go into a gaybar and tell the folks there "you don't think there's enough gay people out there do you? WELL MAYBE YOU'D BETTER BECOME STRAIGHT BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY WAY YOU'RE GETTING MORE PARTNERS IN PROPORTION TO THE GENERAL POPULATION, BUDDY"

*unflattering to gays I mean, they get more than wrist exercise after all

[BIL]

You win! Fifty million points to you, good sir! But you bombed three times, so you miss out on the Ura loop.

This thread is already a Gradius V hundred-loop run with the console left on during work and school hours.

Or maybe an Asteroids WR attempt with extends used for bathroom breaks.

[RNGmaster]

y'know when you start saying things like "irreparable damage to your tv" I think that perhaps safety is very important to your gaming, so here's an N64 controller you can control with your mouth, and here's a helmet, go for it with honor

We resolved this already. Read the thread. Notice how I said:

Dammit, you're right. I know no mainstream reviewers read this board. That was the stupidest mistake I made. Yeah, and everybody on this forum is acquainted enough with shmups to be free of those misconceptions.

I admitted I was wrong, and that attracting mainstream gamers isn't the point. Your comparison, while not homophobic or offensive, is completely irrelevant in light of what I wrote earlier. I am not alleging that all people need to play shmups, I was just saying that the sense of superiority we have over console gamers is part of what keeps us niche. And pay more attention to my posts - did you see the word "joke!" in small font after the part about irreparable damage to TV's? Yeah, I was being sarcastic. Sarcasm is a thing that exists, and apparently despite having made 746 times as many posts as me, you are neither aware of humor nor basic forum etiquette. Taking this all way too seriously, man.

[Obiwanshinobi]

This place is swarming with console people. They get everywhere.

[Ed Oscuro]

Read the thread.

How's this for another breach of your cherished forum etiquette: I don't care enough for what you're saying to do anything but skim it. I've already read this thread through twice* before you thought it warranted (apparently it is, after all, "serious" enough to register for a board one apparently doesn't care about and start writing absolute nonsense), and I didn't care what you would've had to say then, either.

It's 1:13 here, my eyes should be getting tired, and I'm not making any apologies for speed-reading through more of the same drivel from pages ago. And you get not a single apology for having missed the subtly hidden sarcasm of -1 point font text. Buried text = SUPER SUBTLE & HILARIOUS SARCASM TECHNIQUE. Groucho Marx hid all his best jokes in the top left corner of the film. Gets me every time!

Thanks for bringing ad hominem attacks into play though. And congratulations on reading all 33 pages of this nonsense. That was a really effective use of your time, huh? How about instead of wasting your time trying to "talk sense" (or whatever it is you think you're up to) with crusty elitists, go play a game of something you enjoy, or do something that is otherwise productive.

*FORUM ETIQUETTE demands there be an explaining remark here: This statement may or may not be true, and I don't care either way.