indie shmup blog w/ XONA and udderdude, show some love :)

[ShmupSamurai]

Even though I happen to enjoy a few euoshmups my self, I gotta admit....

Udderdude's right.

[doctorx0079]

@ codergames: This is how you do it: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29058

schnoo might also be interested in that thread.

[Dave_K.]

^ LOL at Kaiser calling that other guy an amateur too!

Thanks for posting your thoughts Udderdude, I agree with almost everything stated. How codergames takes any offense to what you said is beyond me.

[codergames]

I think that every person who makes shmups, the games we all love, deserves a support. If you don't give support to such people the development of quality shmups will cease. What does it take to make a quality game? A lot of time and effort.

[TMR]

I think that every person who makes shmups, the games we all love, deserves a support. If you don't give support to such people the development of quality shmups will cease.

Giving support to people who make bad shoot 'em ups isn't helping the cause, it does more harm than good because it'll encourage development of even more bad games and that'll never be a good thing.

[codergames]

I agree that's why people should support the developers of good shmups, plus you should define what a good shmup is according to you, because that might not match the likes of someone else. I personally prefer 3d shmups rather than fully photoshop or hand-drawn ones. Euro and US type of shmups.

Also I loved Uridium on C64 back in the days.

[genecyst]

I think that every person who makes shmups, the games we all love, deserves a support.

i don't think anyone should be supported ABSOLUTELY or in ANY case, a developer should be supported if he creates something that has a relevance and this relevance should depend in a matter of tastes. I think here we are speaking too much about personal (or community...) tastes, the fact that bother me a bit is paying for it... it shows how an indie community is becoming everyday much similar to the official pro-dev scene with all that it means.

i'm not sure about my english in this part. sorry for some probable misunderstandings.

[codergames]

That's because its extremely hard for independent people to make anything. No funding, no marketing machinery to support and advertise them. That's the main reason why independent games are expensive. The reason why many indies fade away quickly is because of the lack of the necessary support. I contacted all the major and well-known publishers and advertisers and the majority did not reply. The ones that did told me that they're not able to help as only their companies can be advertised. There are few others that are specialized for indies, but I need to pay $200. Since I'm not a company, I don't really stand a chance, but as opposed to companies, I'm eager to make games that people would like to play, if only I could be told what to make exactly. So far, I'm making games, people I know, like to play, including myself. While that's great, it does not appear to be enough, as my site's not being advertised due to zero marketing budget or any other budget.

What I wanted to say is that indie scene will fade away in a few years.

[TMR]

the fact that bother me a bit is paying for it... it shows how an indie community is becoming everyday much similar to the official pro-dev scene with all that it means.

Support doesn't have to mean payment, some excellent shoot 'em ups at the moment are free and just giving their developers feedback or encouragement is enough; that can be a quick "thanks very much" email, a guestbook comment or forum post on their website, a nice posting here or on other gaming sites, a couple of pennies in the Paypal begging bowl or even a positive review of their game in some form if you've got a blog or write for a games site.

And criticism might be harder to take for some people (well okay, most people since indies unsurprisingly tend to become extremely attached to their work) but as long as it's constructive that's a good thing too, it shows that people cared enough to not only try the game you've been slaving over but have offered advice to, in their eyes, improve it.

[schnoo]

wow I want to lock this topic until the article posts
you guys are giving some great commentary and I hope you will come by and read/comment on the article when we are done

[codergames]

@TMR ... I'm afraid that's not enough as such development could last many years for a single, average, game. I do have several games I did in my spare time, just for myself and my friends. The tap on the back and "you're the man!" sort of thing was enough in those cases, those are the games that will never be available on the net as they're not quality enough. I was talking about quality development, development that requires full dedication, almost like a full-time job. It took me about a year to make Invader Attack, but only 4 hours daily and more on weekends, sometimes even 10 hours. 3D is not an easy development, music composing is also very demanding, and to give away the game for free, would not contribute to any further development.

[genecyst]

maybe i'm wrong, but my idea of indie dev is something that stand near to DIY attitude... zero money, zero worries about money, zero worries about selling the product, only real effort on what you are doing...

now i see a lot of small studios which are starting their first steps in game dev pro scene and 'till they don't reach the graces of a producer or distributor they are called "indie" without the term states some real indipendence from the industry but only that you're less lucky financially speaking.

[TMR]

@TMR ... I'm afraid that's not enough as such development could last many years for a single, average, game.

Yes, i know - i've written about thirty games over the last couple of decades and those are just the ones i can remember to be honest. My current Windows-based project has been on the go for over fourteen months on and off and is currently just a game engine (it's been re-written from scratch twice in that time), plus i have three C64 and one Atari 8-bit title on the go as well.

I do have several games I did in my spare time, just for myself and my friends. The tap on the back and "you're the man!" sort of thing was enough in those cases, those are the games that will never be available on the net as they're not quality enough.

There's one potential marketing resource you're missing out on already; take one or two of those games, tidy them up a little and release them for free - upload to sites like GameJolt or whatever, make sure the name of your site is prominently placed (but don't go mad) and, if the games are half decent, people might go looking at your site to see what else you've done - okay, it might not work but you won't know unless you try and they're just sitting on your hard drive at the moment.

Another inexpensive marketing source is cultivating relationships with people writing indie gaming blogs or review sites, ask them nicely and you might be able to arrange some reciprocal advertising - it's worth sending them free copies for review as well, especially folks like Bill at The 2 Bears or TrevHead. Have a read of this because there's some good advice in there (and links to more of the same) and very little of the stuff they're recommending costs actual cash to do, just time and effort.

I was talking about quality development, development that requires full dedication, almost like a full-time job. It took me about a year to make Invader Attack, but only 4 hours daily and more on weekends, sometimes even 10 hours.

Which isn't too different from my own situation or indeed just about anyone doing indie development.

3D is not an easy development, music composing is also very demanding, and to give away the game for free, would not contribute to any further development.

And i'm fairly sure that nobody said you should be giving it away, just that it needs to be priced competitively for the market you're aiming at - those are two very different things.

[codergames]

To tell you the truth I didn't know what it meant until I've read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independen ... evelopment

The problem with game development in general is that you can't do anything quality in a short time if you don't work full-time on it and to go full-time on anything these days costs a lot of money, food, bills, equipment, etc. its all a black hole sucking money. While there are several indie game dev teams that are being funded by some independent people (outside of gaming business) looking for a revenue from their investment, that's not my case. While its great that I'm getting support from family and friends, its not enough to keep me going making efforts to produce quality games.

Over last year, I've noticed that some of the indies fully gave up on any development or were absorbed by large game publishers.

@TMR ... those are some good advices. Sadly, I'm not able to spend any time polishing those old games, they're beyond any polishing. Things have changed so much since then, that its not really worth any effort. I'll look at the sites you referred to, good advices, will let you know how that went. Thanks a lot, great advices and very helpful!

[codergames]

I've sent an email to William just now. And you won't believe me, but I've already read that article on GamaSutra. I joined TIG's forum (mostly unfriendly members replied, the only person I met there was Jamie Woodhouse, the creator of my favorite amiga game called Qwak), submitted to PlayThatThing (many month ago, no reply and no review since).

[TMR]

The problem with game development in general is that you can't do anything quality in a short time if you don't work full-time on it

So don't go full-time. The people writing games like Eden's Aegis, Hydorah or Genetos didn't but nobody would accuse them of releasing low quality games. Yes it takes longer if it's being done in spare time, but shoot 'em up fans are used to waiting.

I joined TIG's forum (mostly unfriendly members replied, he only person I met there was Jamie Woodhouse, the creator of my favorite amiga game called Qwak)

i think i met him last year at Retro Reunited... but the entire day is a massive blur because i was finishing a C64 game for release at the event. i did have a natter with Archer McLean (the author of Dropzone on the Atari 8-bit and C64) though, he seemed to be a nice chap and is still doing the indie thing after about thirty years. Jeff Minter is the same really, been knocking out games since the 1980's and has almost a cult following of people who enjoy having their eyeballs unscrewed from the inside by mental pyrotechnics. =-)

submitted to PlayThatThing (many month ago, no reply and no review since).

Don't leave them out of the next batch of emails when the next project is done though; this is what i meant when i said you're competing with other people in the same field by the way, if you submit a gallery shooter for review then there are other people submitting theirs and it comes down to something of a lottery as to whose they actually write about.

To be honest it's no easier to get anywhere as an indie now than it was twenty years ago... publishers don't always honour contracts or pay invoices, one-person operations occasionally get ignored, it's just on a bigger scale and the communication barriers are mostly gone.

[codergames]

I agree, of course, and that's why the indie game dev scene will pass, it was sort of a hype these last 7-8 years, but it seems that its fading away slowly. Well, I'll just finish up Galaxide and that's it from me.

[TMR]

I agree, of course, and that's why the indie game dev scene will pass, it was sort of a hype these last 7-8 years, but it seems that its fading away slowly.

The hype might be perhaps, but indie game development won't be going anywhere - if anything it's more overt now than ever before, the average punter is aware that there's an alternative to mainstream gaming in ways they weren't even a decade ago. Indie developers have always fed the mainstream industry in some form, either with ideas or foot soldiers.

Well, I'll just finish up Galaxide and that's it from me.

i believe that's called "quitting"...

Like i said, if you're trying to make a living from being an indie you probably shouldn't at this stage in the game; the people who are have either made a huge investment of time to get themselves to that position (Llamasoft, Archer McLean, Jeff Vogel) or come from an established mainstream programming background and turned up with financing and business plans. Don't expect to be an overnight success because, whilst that might happen occasionally, it's rarer than rocking horse poo.

[codergames]

Well said, especially the poo part.

[kemical]

I agree, of course, and that's why the indie game dev scene will pass, it was sort of a hype these last 7-8 years, but it seems that its fading away slowly.

The indie game dev scene will never pass, there always have been people tinkering with making games and always will be, and there is always going to be some percentage of those people who want to distribute their stuff in some way.

It is only going to become more fragmented, as games progress more genres and sub-genres will emerge. Indie game dev's might be able to find success in banding together in ways similar to small specialized music labels, specialized in certain styles, themes and subgenres... with hand-picked acceptance and good quality bars, then also do limited physical copy releases, only in the hundreds, and still offer digital distribution of the title as well. The small labels could also distribute physical copies for other small labels to spread awareness, although the need for this sort of thing is hardly what it used to be before the internet... but it still creates fans and things for people to identify with and spread word of, also gives value to something that tends to only exist in digital form (for people who feel they care). anyway rambling.

indie game dev isn't a passing fad.

[TMR]

The indie game dev scene will never pass, there always have been people tinkering with making games and always will be, and there is always going to be some percentage of those people who want to distribute their stuff in some way.

Yup, in Ye Olde Days we trusted the postal system not to mangle floppy disks too much or uploaded to prototypical online services at a massive 1200 baud - compared to then, the channels open for distributing indie games now are staggering. =-)

Even distributing physical media isn't too hard, getting industrious with a decent colour laser printer, some scissors and a CDRW drive takes time but not much in the way of money (the results are pretty good too, i've had a couple of games sent to me like that) and i believe there are publish-on-demand services that can duplicate and distribute CDs and DVDs too for a cut of the cash - i'll have to play with one of those at some point to see what the discs look like and what can actually be handled.

[genecyst]

Indie game dev's might be able to find success in banding together in ways similar to small specialized music labels, specialized in certain styles, themes and subgenres...

totally agree. as there are indipendent music labels there will be indipendent games producer, just like the german red spot games with dc stuff, or just like super fighter team with retrogames on old consoles.

Even distributing physical media isn't too hard, getting industrious with a decent colour laser printer, some scissors and a CDRW drive takes time but not much in the way of money (the results are pretty good too, i've had a couple of games sent to me like that)

totally agree again, we can get nice results without spending so much money and time.

[doctorx0079]

There's even XNA Creators Club for crying out loud. Indie games aren't going away when even MS supports them.

EDIT: If you don't like MS or Windows then check out what Andre LaMothe is doing these days.

Indie games will never die.

[codergames]

I was talking about quality games with quality graphics, music and quality and original ideas. Of course game development will never die, there are open source projects as well, but I wasn't talking about that. Quality projects require a lot of time and effort and things aren't so good for indies these days. Many come and fade away quickly due to luck of support from the gamers. And in some cases gamers never find out about their games, so they just go into oblivion, like they never even existed and games they made never see the daylight and just vanish without a trace. And those are some very original and pretty cool games. Anyway this is what I saw happening in the past ~10 years.

Of course, since their price were like $20 and higher that might have been the problem, but I do understand why indie games are so expensive. It takes much more effort and time for an indie to make a game in comparison with a well funded and supported company, like Blizzard who spent 100K dollars to make StarCraft 2 and they'll get it all back, they're advertised everywhere and people will gladly spend $70 on their game as its very quality and the hype is huge, marketing is bombing people everywhere they go. But from my point of view, SF2 is crap, SF1 is much better and those indie games that faded away are very original and better as well. So, while people could have enjoyed 3-4 very original indie games, for the same amount of money, (that faded away forever), they decided to support the company.

[TMR]

I was talking about quality games with quality graphics, music and quality and original ideas.

As was everybody else; what constitutes "quality" as regards graphics and music can be subjective and most of the posters here would say that both the graphics and music take a back seat to the gameplay anyway (although most of the titles mentioned are of a good quality in those respects). i'm of the opinion that originality is overrated too, at least i can't see the point if people are just being original for the sake of it rather than the good of the game/genre.

Of course game development will never die, there are open source projects as well, but I wasn't talking about that. Quality projects require a lot of time and effort

Yes they do, but that time and effort can be put in by one or two people in back rooms on a battered desktop after work. The industry in the West was all but built on games being developed that way and they still take on new staff from that background.

So, while people could have enjoyed 3-4 very original indie games, for the same amount of money, (that faded away forever), they decided to support the company.

It's not a conscious decision for most gamers, they're simply not aware of the alternatives; XBox 360 users could get some cracking games for a dollar or two via XBLIG but most aren't even aware that it exists, PC users can download a metric f**kton of excellent freeware shoot 'em ups for nothing or titles like Leave Home and Irukandji for a couple of quid but even if they were aware of the genre in the first place they don't necessarily know that the free and inexpensive games exist.

For example, a friend of mine and i were talking about games and she mentioned that she used to play shoot 'em ups; i gave her a disc with a couple of hundred freeware games on it a few days later and she was literally stunned that so many existed.

Maybe we need a dedicated portal of some kind for distributing shoot 'em ups, either freeware or playable previews of commercial products...

[codergames]

That's a great idea, having a portal dedicated to shmups, gathering people who make shmups. While this site and this forum is great, the developers of shmups are not all here. Or maybe there is such portal already, we're just not aware of it?

[TMR]

That's a great idea, having a portal dedicated to shmups, gathering people who make shmups. While this site and this forum is great, the developers of shmups are not all here. Or maybe there is such portal already, we're just not aware of it?

Some of the devs are already together at ShmupDev (although i've seen noisier graveyards of late) but i'm not aware of any portal specialising in shoot 'em ups... right now i'm trying to convince myself not to just build something because i have the organisational skills of a bag of dead badgers but i might still go ahead and do it anyway (as in set up something with perhaps Joomla with a forum and blog for news that authorised users can add or edit pages to) if enough people are interested, keep it free for a year and then charge a rate for banner advertising or something.

[Udderdude]

There was Shoot The Core, but I'm not sure if it's up anymore or not .. :/

[TMR]

There was Shoot The Core, but I'm not sure if it's up anymore or not .. :/

Not the last time i looked no, but that's generally where i think i was coming from except with the people making the games adding entries so there's not one poor, downtrodden admin...

[genecyst]

find this out yesterday...

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27433
i thought at shoot the core too