Nordenfelt - 2D Steampunk Shmup

[hermitC]

what is the minimum required system to play this game?

At this point we're not sure, that's why I asked for FPS and object counter to work out an estimated benchmark. The game does not appear to be visually taxing (I mean that like fancy draw rendering and 3D tech) so I would guess it should run even on Legacy computers at this point.

Nordenfelt is pure 2D and should work on older machines to. Win XP, 16 bits per pixel and a resolution of 1024x768 are the planned minimum. I'm not sure about the resolution. Some statitistics say that 800x600 is not necessary for Win XP, others don't.

Finally I hope that there are some people out there who have old machines. That would be great for testing.

[Udderdude]

If you're not using hardware accelerated graphics, you're probably in trouble running that high.

[hermitC]

If you're not using hardware accelerated graphics, you're probably in trouble running that high.

I took a look around the web but could not find statistics about not-hw-accelerated machines. Do you have experience here or do you know any useful links?

[Udderdude]

Anything above 800x600x16 is not going to run well, software rendering is just too slow to do anything useful with above a certian resolution, really.

I have lots of experience with software rendering, pretty much every game I've made uses it.

[hermitC]

It depends on how many percent of potential players are restricted to such low specs. I don't know if SFML/OpenGL supports software rendering at all.

Investigation in several unknown topics started since release of version 0.1

[Udderdude]

If you can do hardware accelerated, it's likely better off that way.

[BPzeBanshee]

I also notice this rollover problem happens with older computers, generally the better way to solve the issue is for:
A. Get a newer USB Keyboard
B. Bind the keys to buttons that do not have this rollover problem on the existing keyboard

Playing ESPRade the other day I found that using Space Bar for charging my bomb while moving around resulted in being unable to move around while CTRL and ALT worked for my other functions. This will probably vary with other keyboards so a custom binding system for the game may be necessary.

As for hardware acceleration I do have some older computers that work, and my cousin has at least one laptop that from what I've seen so far runs programs worse in hardware-accelerated mode than in software. Won't try anything serious with Nordenfelt till next release though.

[hermitC]

I also notice this rollover problem happens with older computers, generally the better way to solve the issue is for:
A. Get a newer USB Keyboard
B. Bind the keys to buttons that do not have this rollover problem on the existing keyboard

Playing ESPRade the other day I found that using Space Bar for charging my bomb while moving around resulted in being unable to move around while CTRL and ALT worked for my other functions. This will probably vary with other keyboards so a custom binding system for the game may be necessary.

As for hardware acceleration I do have some older computers that work, and my cousin has at least one laptop that from what I've seen so far runs programs worse in hardware-accelerated mode than in software. Won't try anything serious with Nordenfelt till next release though.

Custom key mapping and joypad support is planned which should wipe out the rollover problem. What would be a working default key config to avoid rollover and give a pleasing input scheme? IMO WASD for movement and keys like SHIFT or CTRL should work on most machines.

The only concern with hardware-acceleration vs. software emulation are supported resolutions. Due to my non-sprite-scaling policy I'm bound to the lowest supported resolution. Many professional indie games don't offer resolutions below 1024x768 these days, even when they are aimed on low specs. Therefore I will use 1024x768 as minimum. Higher resolutions either won't be supported or just have a broader GUI. The play field will stay the same size. Damned, 3D would be so much easier here.

[BPzeBanshee]

Custom key mapping and joypad support is planned which should wipe out the rollover problem. What would be a working default key config to avoid rollover and give a pleasing input scheme? IMO WASD for movement and keys like SHIFT or CTRL should work on most machines.

In my game project I use WSAD for movement and aim/fire with the mouse. Since this game is made differently possibly try these buttons but your main firing keys be J and K. I use this to avoid rollover for my Megadrive emulator when using it on older PCs.

The only concern with hardware-acceleration vs. software emulation are supported resolutions. Due to my non-sprite-scaling policy I'm bound to the lowest supported resolution. Many professional indie games don't offer resolutions below 1024x768 these days, even when they are aimed on low specs. Therefore I will use 1024x768 as minimum. Higher resolutions either won't be supported or just have a broader GUI. The play field will stay the same size. Damned, 3D would be so much easier here.

1024x768 is about as far as I'd go with older machines - I refuse to set it to 1280x1024, it just has no benefit for the machine of its age. I do believe most Doujin games use the GUI extending technique (which is annoying for me personally but would work in this case), so I got no arguments with using that to solve the higher res issue.
As for 3D, while being a good idea would essentially defeat the purpose of this discussion with older PCs as such 3D implementation would be completely unrunnable on machines of the older era which I've discussed.

[hermitC]

I need your opinion about these sketches:



Which one do you want to see as Nordenfelt's player ship?

BTW: I've set up a new blog on the Nordenfelt website. Would be nice to see you there for some shmup design discussions!

[BPzeBanshee]

The concept designs are rather nice, though I can't really point out any individual one over the others. Symmetry is usually better for consistency though, so I can safely rule out A and C for player ships (though as enemies they'd be allright, maybe consider C for the spinning ship idea I mentioned earlier? ).

And I still can't beat the boss lol, there's gotta be a better way to play than get all the way to the end of the stage just to get killed off by one set of bullets and have to use up another 10 minutes getting there.

[Ghegs]

I found F to please my eye the most.

[BPzeBanshee]

Yeah, F does look a bit more typical of a player ship doesn't it? Reminds me of the Arm's 'Brawler' from Total Annihilation.

[hermitC]

Thanks, guys. B and F are becoming common favourites.

The concept designs are rather nice, though I can't really point out any individual one over the others. Symmetry is usually better for consistency though, so I can safely rule out A and C for player ships (though as enemies they'd be allright, maybe consider C for the spinning ship idea I mentioned earlier? ).

A and C were meant to be symmetrical but I've drawn them to close to the paper edges - no space left for the opposite wings
I've already thought about reusing designs for enemies which are not used for the player ship. I don't want to waste too much designs, time is money

And I still can't beat the boss lol, there's gotta be a better way to play than get all the way to the end of the stage just to get killed off by one set of bullets and have to use up another 10 minutes getting there.

To be honest: I did not either. Weakening it already made it into version 0.2 its todo list.

[hermitC]

I need your opinion about these sketches:



Which one do you want to see as Nordenfelt's player ship?

BTW: I've set up a new blog on the Nordenfelt website. Would be nice to see you there for some shmup design discussions!

Modelling the player ship starts tomorrow. Last call for your opinions.

[ryu]

I find B, C and G fitting the most into the a steampunk setting. Out of those I prefer G. B seems just far too bulky and C is missing a clear center, don't know how that would feel playing with.

[Udderdude]

I'd go with G or F.

[BPzeBanshee]

If you choose to implement two player at some point, implement both G AND F.

Or you could just put them all in like how Tyrian 2000 does it but that's just extra work and arguably not really necessary anyway.

[hermitC]

Or you could just put them all in like how Tyrian 2000 does it but that's just extra work and arguably not really necessary anyway.

The adventure mode (currently off, see this video from March 2010) will provide different ship hulls to choose from. B, F and G are the top favourites so they will make it into the game anyway. Can't tell you when the adventure mode will be playable (again).

[BPzeBanshee]

Oh, okay. That's a good strategy, I forgot about the Adventure mode plan.

[hermitC]

After massive refactoring I've started modeling the winner from the player ship concept poll. It's not finished, some details like rivets or plates are still missing:

[wondersonic]

After massive refactoring I've started modeling the winner from the player ship concept poll. It's not finished, some details like rivets or plates are still missing:

You sure have talent!

I'm waiting for the texturing part

BTW, how do you use this work in your game? You render a reduced version of the model? You render the model in different orientations to textures then use textures?

I'm very curious

[BPzeBanshee]

You sure have talent!

I'm waiting for the texturing part

BTW, how do you use this work in your game? You render a reduced version of the model? You render the model in different orientations to textures then use textures?

I'm very curious

He creates 2D sprites out of having the textured 3D models, from bird's eye angle. It'd be like making a model of Rynex with textures, putting it to the desired angle, taking screenshots (or whatever method hermitC does) and using the screenshots as sprites.
At least this is my understanding of what he's done. Isotoxin did this for the original Xeno Fighters R ships.

[wondersonic]

You sure have talent!

I'm waiting for the texturing part

BTW, how do you use this work in your game? You render a reduced version of the model? You render the model in different orientations to textures then use textures?

I'm very curious

He creates 2D sprites out of having the textured 3D models, from bird's eye angle. It'd be like making a model of Rynex with textures, putting it to the desired angle, taking screenshots (or whatever method hermitC does) and using the screenshots as sprites.
At least this is my understanding of what he's done. Isotoxin did this for the original Xeno Fighters R ships.

Cool, as I intend to do the same thing soon I'm happy to see this technic is being used

[hermitC]

After some feedback I've changed the ship model:


New Model

I'm not satisfied with the hull shape in the 2D sprite. IMO the engine covers should be reduced a little bit for restoring the “small hip” of the old hull shape:


Old Model


Your opinion?

[Udderdude]

I kind of like the shape of the old model, to be honest. I'd take the details from the new model (rivets, etc.) and put them on the old one.

Also it really seems like you're putting every little detail on display here .. while that's nice, you probably just want to make some decisions for yourself, or make a bunch then ask for overall feedback.

[hermitC]

I kind of like the shape of the old model, to be honest. I'd take the details from the new model (rivets, etc.) and put them on the old one.

Also it really seems like you're putting every little detail on display here .. while that's nice, you probably just want to make some decisions for yourself, or make a bunch then ask for overall feedback.

The player ship is something you're facing most of the time. So I'm really interested in detailed opinions about it. Shortcutting dead ends in design (models, features, whatever) is another reason for the basic insights. Heading into a direction for weeks with a final "that's crap!" reply is something I want to avoid.

I appreciate your "meta" opinion. Making chunks of information the right size is also something I have to learn over time.

PS: The 95% of internally done decision are not visible here

[BPzeBanshee]

I like them both, though out of the two I'd pick the first one because it looks solid and has more detail in it, though that kind of detail could be trivial for both.

[hermitC]

Finished the player ship:



Lesson learned: Don't add details until they are missing in the final sprite.

[emphatic]

Nice!