Why shmups are such a niche genre

[iluvmonsterz]

as far as i can tell there is less room for "slop" in hd as you will literally see every detail so yes it would be more labor intensive...we r still getting metal slugs on ds so they must not be to expensive to make..i still love my saturn and neo geo shmups so its not about my love for lcds or what not its more about moving forward and making a better product with each new iteneration..which is somewhat of a gamble,thats why sequels are proliferating every facet of digital media...

[Obiwanshinobi]

It's not about love. People who replaced their CRTs wit LCDs can't easily purchase new CRTs, and most likely they don't want to (facing the fact that your new TV or PC monitor is in a way inferior to the one you just ditched is unpleasant enough). In this circumstances any big effort put in creating a lo-res 2D game for home platforms would be wasted as it would look ugly on most people's TVs and monitors. It's not consumers who don't want to have a choice: LCD or CRT. It's the manufacturers who pulled the plug.

[gs68]

I refuse to swap my CRT out for an HDTV just yet. I'd have to get an upscaler too, lest all my pre-PSWii60-era games lag like a motherfucker. Sure, most people don't give a fuck about input lag or don't even notice it, but when I play music games and shmups, a few frames of lag is all I need to punch a hole in my shiny new TV.

I should know what it's like; SVGL's Beatmania IIDX machine was saddled with a plasma for four years, and for the plasma to be switched out with a widescreen CRT was a huge blessing. And then there's the ghetto IIDX setup at Fanime, which I wouldn't mind if it weren't for the lag converting many of my Just Greats to Goods.

Also, people who stretch a 4:3 screen to 16:9 and think pillarboxing the screen to fix the stretchiness looks weird make me do this:
FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU--
Why don't you get eye surgery to stretch your vision while you're at it?

[iluvmonsterz]

my arguement has nothing to do with lcd or crt....my arguement is to develope for the hd formats...i have yet to mention lcd or plasma against crt...yes old 2d looks better on crt...but when i run ps2 shmups on my sony lcd z series i dont think they look like ass...i run em at 480p but as i said that has nothing to do with my over all gripe. the subject of my arguement is 2D hd sprites as opposed to rendered..they will both run in hd if the programers intend them to do so from the start...the game will run fine if it is intended to be played on a hd machine..if everyone has a lcd and dont want to convert BACK to crt then my point is all the more relevent dont you think? i m not sure when this became a discussion about the merits of lcd over crt.

[gs68]

I just had a horrifying realization about shmups and arcades.

Fighting games generate profit as a result of having serious players whore them out like ice cream sundaes. But for shooting games and gun games, it's the opposite: the ones who are proficient at them and can clear them without putting in the extra money to continue gradually give the machine less profit than those who just casually play the game.

In short: good shmup players are bad for arcades. Which is why many arcades, especially those outside of Japan, are using fighting games as life support instead. You hear about fighting games at, say, Arcade Infinity, all the time, but it's been about 7,000 years since the last time I've heard someone talk about going to AI to play shmups or Tetris TGM3. Heck, I don't know if AI even has any shmups right now.

[BIL]

Expert players dump a ton of cash into shooters in order to become so skilled, though. That must even things out somewhat.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Shmups used to earn great deal for arcade owners. Space Invaders caused major shortage of small change in Japan. Has everybody since then became too good at shmups, or have shmups became too easy for their own good? I don't think so.

i m not sure when this became a discussion about the merits of lcd over crt.

When you accused "3D whores" (which means fuck all in this day and age) of not understanding the "feel" 2D shmups are supposed to have. 2D is temporarily screwed for technological reasons rather than 3D fad of the late nineties. I believe many people want sprites back, but making those people happy in high resolutions would be somewhat quixotic. A handful of 2D fighting games tried, but shmups market is way smaller.

[iluvmonsterz]

dude that still has nothing to do with my gripe...its seems as if you ve taken this personaly. and your constant objection to my use of a certain phrase kinda weirds me out. there are planty of people out there who wont even look at a a game unless its 3D,thus they are 3D whores..thus the term still holds relevance...so it does mean.. "fuck all". ONCE AGAIN 2d looks just fine on a lcd when programmed for it....blaze blue looks amazing,imagine that as a shmup...youre saying it would look like shit because its not running n a crt? i ve completly lost interest in this conversation because there is nothing to support your side of it. deathsmiles2 would look no less sharp if the characters were sprites(with more detail ) running in hd on a lcd...its that simple. as it stands we get that AMAZING looking last chess stage. thanks 3D!!!
[/quote]
When you accused "3D whores" (which means fuck all in this day and age) of not understanding the "feel" 2D shmups are supposed to have. 2D is temporarily screwed for technological reasons rather than 3D fad of the late nineties. I believe many people want sprites back, but making those people happy in high resolutions would be somewhat quixotic. A handful of 2D fighting games tried, but shmups market is way smaller.[/quote]

[Obiwanshinobi]

ONCE AGAIN 2d looks just fine on a lcd when programmed for it....blaze blue looks amazing,imagine that as a shmup...youre saying it would look like shit because its not running n a crt?

BlazBlue graphics are rendered in high resolution (768p), and so are KoFXII graphics. There is nothing tricky about technology behind it; it just takes more time and hard work than it used to in low resolutions, therefore is more expensive (if it's really supposed to look good). Shmups being more niche than 2D fighting games, I don't expect to see good looking 100% 2D hi-res graphics in a commercially released shmup any time soon.

i ve completly lost interest in this conversation because there is nothing to support your side of it.

Quite the opposite; I explained why high resolutions are necessary these days (LCD), and why virtually no one tries to fully exploit the potential of hi-res sprites (it wouldn't be cost effective).

[iluvmonsterz]

so what exactly are you arguing about? first you say 2d is at some technological impass then you say its not but its to expensive and time consuming to create a cost effective game....if a game company really loves and believes in their game they will make it the best it can be...unless they are EA/activision....at which point they ll just all buy new cars and charge for online content that shoulda been in the game at launch...once again greed. 2d hd games CAN, HAVE and SHOULD be produced in this current economic enviorment...give me examples and facts otherwise.

[Obiwanshinobi]

if a game company really loves and believes in their game they will make it the best it can be...

That's easier to do than make any profit out of it. Capcom during the last gen released many "let's fucking do it" games a big company can't be praised enough for. This gen Capcom is a shadow of its former self. Guess love and belief only get you so far if you have to pay your bills.

[gs68]

have shmups became too easy for their own good?

The prevelance of "HARDEST BAWSS EV0R" videos on YouTube tend to make people think otherwise. Which means if you bring a Cave shooter to US arcades, most people will go "oh god it's that stupid Jap shooter game on y00t00b" and run away. (And then somehow still manage to have fun getting destroyed by Daigo-class Street Fighter players, which one could argue could be the TLBs of fighting games.)

[iluvmonsterz]

ONCE AGAIN..capcom found success, got greedy, hired greedy ass people and started churning out games that revolve around bullet points which revolve around profit margins....i m not real sure how many times i can say this... DEVELOPERS WILL EITHER MAKE THE GAME THEY WANT OR THEY WILL MAKE THE GAME SOME SUIT WANTS THEM TO MAKE.. as long as youve got guys in 4000 dollar italian silk suits calling the shoots youre gonna get homogenized shit..its what sells to the masses(look at the shovel ware on wii,nintendo pays their BILLS so well they dont even need you or i to help em do em any more). if youre a small developer like cave or treasure you shouldnt be concerned about paying for your vp s porshe...because he shouldnt fucking have one...if he does he probably doesnt care about anything but the bottom line which means you ll end up making games for the call of duty crowd...lets face it..if cave got into games strictly for money they would have chosen a different genre..pachinko maybe? well i m off to shoot african/zombie/nazi/terrorists in my sweet new uber successful cave shmup!!!(in full 3D)

[Obiwanshinobi]

Capcom just got real after their uncompromising last gen efforts bombed. Treasure and Cave also made some day job games (most notably McDonald's Treasure Land Adventure and Shin MegaTen: Imagine) to pay their bills.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I think the reason shmups are niche is simply because they are hard and give little reward to sucky players, basically the same reasons us folks here love shmups for are same reasons the rest of the world hates shmups. Even fighters which every one here seems to campare shmup with, are in a way more rewarding to gamers who totally suck at playing them.

Also nowadays there arnt that many modern games been made that play like a shmup, so when a newcomer first plays a shooter its a massive hurdle to overcome especially if theyre playing a bullet hell game. Compare this to 10 plus years ago where there were many more arcade games available with the gaming culture based allot more on skillfull handling of the joystick / joypad.

Last year when i first caught the shmup bug I remember cos ild been playing mostly FPSs and other point and click games that i was totally shit at shmups and had to put in allot of pratice to develop my shmupping skills to a point where i could play i shmup without dieing every two seconds. It was my newfound love for shmups that helped me pass that initial hurdle but some everyday gamer wouldnt be as determained to develop the skills needed to play a shmup properlly.

[Zigfried the Trizealot]

Most shmups -- even the modern ones -- really aren't all that hard. And besides, you can credit-feed or bomb-spam through most of them. They're pretty easy when you do that. In most genres, poor play means you have to keep trying until you get it right. In many shmups, poor play means you just have to hit START a few more times.

Obviously that's not a problem for us -- we care enough to try to 1CC -- but many people don't have that sense of "gamer pride" that prevents them from continuing. It's not a cure-all, but one requirement to become less niche would be to limit continues. That would force people to develop some skill, and that often results in an appreciation for the game's design.

[Fan of MAME]

Yeah, shmups are pretty hard. I play 5-10 hours a week, and only five games: Armed Police Batrider, Battle Bakraid, Change Air Blade, Cyvern: The Dragon Weapons, and Dimahoo. Even 100 hours of practice to each one are not enough to achieve 1cc. And even to Change Air Blade and Cyvern, which, in my opinion, are the easiest.
I am not an average person, but for the average person it would be impossible, ever, to achieve even the middle of a shmup. That's why shmups are such a niche genre. Shmups are made from geniuses and aren't for most of the players.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Yeah, shmups are pretty hard. I play 5-10 hours a week, and only five games: Armed Police Batrider, Battle Bakraid, Change Air Blade, Cyvern: The Dragon Weapons, and Dimahoo. Even 100 hours of practice to each one are not enough to achieve 1cc. And even to Change Air Blade and Cyvern, which, in my opinion, are the easiest.
I am not an average person, but for the average person it would be impossible, ever, to achieve even the middle of a shmup. That's why shmups are such a niche genre. Shmups are made from geniuses and aren't for most of the players.

Putting this much effort in Batrider and Bakraid on MAME (where they have 3 frames' worth of input lag) isn't my idea of something a genius would do.

[iluvmonsterz]

i hung around this place alot about 5 to 6 years ago and and the overall feel of the boards was a community, it seems to have gone pretty elitist on the arcade side....i play these games cause i love em not cause i am so called "hardcore"...they are afterall games..i am not especially good at them and i dont really care. i am not overly concerned about arcade perfect ports(they are nice but i m not gonna go crazy about the shit) maybe the holier than thou attitude is what keeps it a niche genre? i dont blast individuals because of their particular tastes or because they like taito and not cave...i love some of the shittiest shmups whether they have lag or slowdown doesnt concern me as long as they run decent and dont sound/look like shit i m happy. 1 crediting stuff is great but if we are gonna judge players and games based solely on this we should probably just go hang out on xbox live...

[BIL]

I'd think lag and slowdown are enough to prevent a shooter from running well, regardless of how intently you're playing it.

[iluvmonsterz]

a little slowdown doesnt bother me..as i said before i m not particularly great at shmups so slowdown works to my advantage from time to time...i have never really noticed any lag in batrider while playing it on mame or any other mame shooters...i am the kinda person who will die repeatedly just looking at the shit going on ground level in esparade so that could be a contributing factor in my not noticing...i still play the game and still like it. arcade perfect stuff is fine but sometimes not very practical i used to own 5 arcade cabinets now i m down to just my neo geo machine moving those beasts from one home to another just once is enough to make you consider slimming down your collection. it just seems that things have become more about "my" 1 cred on such and such game or "my" guwange pcb and candy cab( i shoulda never sold guwange btw:( ) and weve forgotten that many of us come here because we just love the game, challenge or not, arcade perfect game play or not.

[BIL]

arcade perfect stuff is fine but sometimes not very practical i used to own 5 arcade cabinets

The entire point of home ports is to bypass cabs + PCBs. I can think of a lot more than five essentially perfect (or better) shooter ports. I'm not sure what you're saying there, really.

Obviously fans here can go a bit overboard (interlacing in otherwise accurate ports comes to mind), but bad ports like the PS2 Giga Wing Generations shouldn't get a free pass just to avoid upsetting newbies.

And this place is hardly fixated on competitive play, regardless. The main chat forum gets far more posts than the high score / strategy sections, and the bigger threads don't exactly revolve around competition.

[Rob]

1 crediting stuff is great but if we are gonna judge players and games based solely on this we should probably just go hang out on xbox live...

Wanna play some Gears, brah?

[iluvmonsterz]

Wanna play some Gears, brah?[/quote]
ha! then we can marathon some call of duty with me and my DAWGS yo! but i can only play till about 10pm cause then i gotta got ride my crotch rocket up and down the local strip...sorry.

[iluvmonsterz]

Capcom just got real after their uncompromising last gen efforts bombed. Treasure and Cave also made some day job games (most notably McDonald's Treasure Land Adventure and Shin MegaTen: Imagine) to pay their bills.

i totally understand places paying bills but i also know that individuals like to "missapropriate" funds. i have and always will appreciate hand drawn 2d over some egghead rendered 3D...i still preferre to produce most of my art 2D and scan it only when absolutly neccessary for deadline/speed issues.
sometime my romantic notions of artistic integrity gets the best of me..i look at shmups as an art from an aesthetic veiwpoint..and i forget some people see them as more of a activity.

[Udderdude]

i look at shmups as an art from an aesthetic veiwpoint..and i forget some people see them as more of a activity.

lolololololololololololololololololol

[iluvmonsterz]

how is that funny? you would be happy if all shmups were just pretty squares and triangles? all the artists that create and contribute sprites may not agree with you....maybe thats why shitty 3d psuedo shmups are doing well on xbox live...i like to see sweet shit getting blown up not just an ego feeding score counter...

[cools]

Yeah, shmups are pretty hard. I play 5-10 hours a week, and only five games: Armed Police Batrider, Battle Bakraid, Change Air Blade, Cyvern: The Dragon Weapons, and Dimahoo. Even 100 hours of practice to each one are not enough to achieve 1cc. And even to Change Air Blade and Cyvern, which, in my opinion, are the easiest.
I am not an average person, but for the average person it would be impossible, ever, to achieve even the middle of a shmup. That's why shmups are such a niche genre. Shmups are made from geniuses and aren't for most of the players.

Putting this much effort in Batrider and Bakraid on MAME (where they have 3 frames' worth of input lag) isn't my idea of something a genius would do.

Batrider is 40 hours to 1CC max for an average player.

[lgb]

Even 100 hours of practice to each one are not enough to achieve 1cc.

This is very very true. You also need to actually pay attention to what you're doing, what they're doing (the threats), and what you can do, or you're not going to get anywhere.

See the above post.

[Fan of MAME]

Maybe I just can't memorize enough Batrider... I have played Dragon Blaze for about 10 hours, on the default course, and I have reached the 5th level(57%). One hour I used save/load to train againt two of the bosses (for technical bonus). A talanted player probably could take Dragon Blaze in 40 hours. But Psikyo games require too much of memorization, and Dragon Blaze is not one of the hardest Psikyo's games.
Batrider don't requires such memorization, that's the reason why I play Batrider, nor the Psikyo's games. And for 10 hours at Batrider I did'n reach the 5th level?...
I think that the average gamer - nor the average player on this site - could not reach the 5th level of Dragon Blaze, even if he has played for 1,000 hours. And I think that the average gamer would have quite a big problems even with the Training Mode in Batrider.