Why shmups are such a niche genre

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wiNteR
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by wiNteR »

To my knowledge, the shmup genre is mostly filled with games that are frentic and fast paced, but with a high difficulty level, with the main objective being to have the highest score possible. So it is more or less (and don't be offended when I say this) casual gameplay with hardcore difficulty levels. So the reason that shmups are such a niche genre is because that most casual players, although they may like the gameplay side, are put off the steep difficulty level, whereas many hardcore gamers like the challenge aspect, but are put off by the lack of gameplay. This means that shmup communily isn't big enough to support a market for this genre, and that is why I believe there hasn't been a market for this genre outside Japan to this day. That is why I believe shmups are such a niche genre.
I don't agree with this at all. You also made many assumptions in your previous post as well, which I really didn't agree with. First of all I don't think you are using the word "gameplay" correctly. I assume by lack of gameplay you really mean the simplicity of the basic concept, shoot and dodge.

Well, in that case, how do you explain the abundance of mainstream games out there (not all of them though) that are ridiculously simplistic in their basic concept and yet successful. For one, you could take the example of guitar hero or other traditional music games. Then alot of single player mainstream games (apart from few exceptions) have not much meat to the actual game playing anyway. And yes, I have played my fair share of current gen and last gen games.

I don't believe there is one reason for the lack of popularity of genre, but quite a few of them that contribute incrementally. I want to list few basic reasons that come to my mind immediately.

1- Out of fashion in terms of aesthetics. The current trend seems to be the obsession with either realistic games or games that can be termed as artful. This is why a lot of western arena games are abstract compared to japanese games, which have a more concrete setting.

2- Perceived lack of value. I am not gonna go into whether I agree with this personally or not, but this is a very important reason without any doubt. Most players and reviewers would consider making you play the same levels again as an artificial way of increasing length.

Since most of the devs. making these games are already very small in size, they cannot afford to make a long game anyway, so possibly, this is a vicious circle. Why would someone spend so much money on making a long game with big budget, just to witness less than mediocre sales. The arcade model of 30 minutes game works better for small developers.

3- The general ignorance of reviewers and the players, and hence the overall ignorance in the mainstream. This is because to an extent reviewers do shape up the tastes of the players. You only need to read a some of the common complaints in the reviews. This ignorance goes well beyond just the lack of value complaint.

4- General lack of will of mainstream players to dedicate themselves to competition is not the only reason. If that was the only reason, then why do you see games that are not really that prominent in mainstream radar, but still have very high amount of players. More importantly, how they are received in mainstream does not matter that much.

The fact is that there is a lot of competition, but mainly directed towards the multiplayer side of things. A single player game in this day and age cannot succeed just on the basis of good game play. It also has to offer graphics, content, story and pop culture appeal for the mainstream.

So, in short, I think that games with mixed arcade and console sensibilities (bayonetta, S&P2 etc.) are the only way to make these games more mainstream, while still preserving the game playing elements that appeal to the core fans.
And there are some problems of stagnation with the genre in my opinion, regardless of how much hardcore fans deny this. Part of this is exactly because the genre is niche and hence the developers have small budgets. Consequently they have not that much room for creative maneuver. No doubt there have been lot of well crafted games of the past already out there. However, personally few things that bother me are:

1- The over abundance of danmaku games in the recent past.

2- Lack of emphasis on shooting/weapon usage in general, and more particularly in cave games. I am not talking about enemy placement and stage design, but strategic weapon usage. Think games like Gradius V, Under Defeat, Mars Matrix, Strikers Plus etc.

3- Lack of experiments in multiplayer department.
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gs68
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by gs68 »

Dunno if this has been mentioned already, but I believe fans have a part in making the genre inpenetrable to "mainstream" gamers.

You play euroshmups and/or Touhou? What a faggot! Hur hur you can't 1LC Thunder Force III on Mania with your spinal cord on your first time, you're worse than a serial killer. Easy mode is for losers!

Are we contributing to why shmups are so "niche"?

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Rob
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by Rob »

gs68 wrote:Hur hur you can't 1LC Thunder Force III on Mania with your spinal cord on your first time, you're worse than a serial killer.
I hope I'm at least partly responsible for this one.
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by Sobek »

gs68 wrote:Dunno if this has been mentioned already, but I believe fans have a part in making the genre inpenetrable to "mainstream" gamers.

You play euroshmups and/or Touhou? What a faggot! Hur hur you can't 1LC Thunder Force III on Mania with your spinal cord on your first time, you're worse than a serial killer. Easy mode is for losers!

Are we contributing to why shmups are so "niche"?

There is no way shmup players are bigger jerks than the Call of Duty community, and those games have more fans than Jesus.
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

The Mulletron wrote:It seems as though this argument has come more or less full circle, (or more like lapped it self several times), with diehard supporters defending the shmup genre, and will bear no ill word said against it (or so that's my impression), countering with statements along the lines of mainstream gaming going "Hollywood" and otherwise selling itself out, or saying that other games don't offer the same challenge (even going so far as to say chess isn't even a strategy game! :o The cheek!), whereas more conservative players state arguments like shmups don't offer the kind of gameplay other people are looking for (or something to that effect), all the while not answering the original question of this topic, which is "Why shmups are such a niche genre".
Chess does not offer the same kind of challenge shoot 'em ups do indeed, but what does it have to do with chess not being a strategy game, I do not comprehend. The main difference is chess being strictly turn based and (unless you play with a clock) not demanding quick responses at all. I'd say chess has more in common with shoot 'em ups than with so called real time strategies, because in chess one - dare I say it - mistake can be as fatal as in shoot 'em ups, whereas the likes of StarCraft resemble beat 'em ups in this regard (the aforementioned tug of war analogy). In StarCraft, of course, you can make fatal errors too, but the nature of hazard is less "digital" here so to speak.
The reason I quoted that whole sentence of yours isn't because I'm interested in dwelling on the subject "why shmups are such a niche genre?", but because I don't want to be accused of quoting its part I'm referring to out of context.
The Mulletron wrote:So the reason that shmups are such a niche genre is because that most casual players, although they may like the gameplay side, are put off the steep difficulty level, whereas many hardcore gamers like the challenge aspect, but are put off by the lack of gameplay.
The gameplay is there if you don't ignore it. I can't see why a person not interested in high scoring or 1CC-ing (i.e. rising to the challenge) would play a shoot 'em up. It'd be like playing a competitive multiplayer game with no intention of defeating your opponents whatsoever. If blowing stuff up is what you are after, you can do this in other games without breaking a sweat.
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by Danbo »

gs68 wrote:Dunno if this has been mentioned already, but I believe fans have a part in making the genre inpenetrable to "mainstream" gamers.

You play euroshmups and/or Touhou? What a faggot! Hur hur you can't 1LC Thunder Force III on Mania with your spinal cord on your first time, you're worse than a serial killer. Easy mode is for losers!

Are we contributing to why shmups are so "niche"?

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euroshmups aren't shmups, they have very little in common with any decent game. touhou has its heart in the right place.

i dont think ive ever seen anyone here really be nasty to someone because they're a beginner. making fun of someone for enjoying ikaruga is a different thing though... 8)
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Obiwanshinobi
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

All this talk about chess, shmups, StarCraft and beat 'em ups made clear to me what my gut tells me is the most impenetrable thing about shmups for today's mainstream gaming audience. Clearly not the repetition (how about racers, football games...?), no - the thing is...

One bullet kills you.

Come to think of it, today's gaming is lifebar gaming mostly. Even if you have a chess king-like object to defend at all cost in an RTS, it's not like a lone stealth bomber can out of the blue obliterate it with a single bomb. Usually you have the potential to build up anti-aircraft defense strong enough to render such tactics useless. RTS-es are about bleeding your opponents to death rather than annihilating them in a blink of an eye.
One could argue that the last wee pixel of energy left on your lifebar in a fighting game works effectively like one life in a shmup, but it's always the last pixel; you have to lost the rest of your energy before one blow can strike you down. Fighting games that tried something different (Bushido Blade, Die by the Sword) haven't spawned many successors.
In a shoot 'em up you can score well, keep your chain or whatever, ponce around like a bitch, show off even, but when one bullet kills you, it's the game's blunt way of telling you that you are not quite as good as you thought. Like in a game of football (soccer), where no matter how stylish your performance is, it's all in vain if your opponent scores goals and you don't, because the scoring system doesn't reward style.
A first person shooter detecting headshots only could be fun, by the way.
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BryanM
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by BryanM »

Yeah sure. I'm not a big fan of the bomb mechanic either. If you knew you were going to die, you wouldn't have died. Getting out of obviously impenetrable traps is only good design for players near the top level of skill, where incidental deaths are no longer much of a concern.
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by Square King »

I was playing Raiden IV a few weeks ago and my sister happened to be around. She's not too deeply into games, but she seemed intrigued, watching for a minute or so. Finally she said, "What's the deal? It looks like you were hit millions of times, but you didn't die." After reflecting on how awesome I am, I explained the concept of the hitbox and touched on the grazing mechanic. She said it sounded goofy and unrealistic. Then I had a minor geek epiphany and paused the game.

I mentioned Starfox, a game we both know well. I said if you put the Raiden ship on a 3D plane and viewed it from behind, as in Starfox, you can see how easy it is to avoid a barrage of bullets -- your ship is twisting and maneuvering through this hailstorm and you're only in danger if the center of your ship is hit. So, one way to think about it isn't that one hit kills you. Perhaps if you've danced around hundreds of bullets already, your ship is on the verge of exploding and that one hit is the 'final' shot needed to bring you down. A hard sell, yeah, but she seemed interested after that. I blame the pretty colors.
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MmSadda
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by MmSadda »

Obiwanshinobi wrote:All this talk about chess, shmups, StarCraft and beat 'em ups made clear to me what my gut tells me is the most impenetrable thing about shmups for today's mainstream gaming audience. Clearly not the repetition (how about racers, football games...?), no - the thing is...

One bullet kills you.
THIS.

I think I touched on the difficulty level and short time of gameplay each time you sit down and start the game and play 'til you're dead, but this further gets to the heart of the matter.

In fact, moreso than just the fact that lifebars are being implemented, let us not forget the current trend towards games with automatically-recharging lifebars. Cases in point: Halo 3. Gears of War. Uncharted. Modern games that do well focus on alternating between shooting and taking some fire, then pulling out and taking cover - this game mechanic really isn't the least bit applicable to shmups.
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MmSadda
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by MmSadda »

Oh, yeah, there's also COST OF ENTRY.

How many shmups have we gotten as full-fledged physical commercial releases in the U.S. lately? I can think of Raiden 4 and the Raiden compilation on 360..... the upcoming Deathsmiles release.... before those few, what was the last one? something on Gamecube?

I may have exaggerated a little, but the point is, to play more than a few recent releases, one would have to get a J-360 and import some high-dollar discs at the very least, and could easily blow a couple grand on a cabinet and a Cave board or two.

So yeah, lack of new, obtainable releases. (and general lack of new releases.)
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by Observer »

MmSadda wrote:
Obiwanshinobi wrote:All this talk about chess, shmups, StarCraft and beat 'em ups made clear to me what my gut tells me is the most impenetrable thing about shmups for today's mainstream gaming audience. Clearly not the repetition (how about racers, football games...?), no - the thing is...

One bullet kills you.
THIS.

I think I touched on the difficulty level and short time of gameplay each time you sit down and start the game and play 'til you're dead, but this further gets to the heart of the matter.

In fact, moreso than just the fact that lifebars are being implemented, let us not forget the current trend towards games with automatically-recharging lifebars. Cases in point: Halo 3. Gears of War. Uncharted. Modern games that do well focus on alternating between shooting and taking some fire, then pulling out and taking cover - this game mechanic really isn't the least bit applicable to shmups.
Erst Kerf is a "Tactical Third Person Shooting Game" that looks like a dungeon crawler at first glance... until you see your character, the bosses and enemies spewing danmaku and pretty colours all over the place. It tried this and I think it worked quite well: you can take cover behind walls, stop firing (and you have to because the weapons use magic so they kind of "overload" if you use them nonstop) and lure enemies to bring them down. Hell, you can even control it like a FPS with the mouse+keyboard combo.

While it's made in 3D, all the action still occurs in a 2D plane like Royal Edoma Engine or Viewpoint. But I guess a game like this is the exception, not the rule.

Agreed on the cost of entry! That one is probably and by far the biggest obstacle for those who won't touch an "old" game (read as: something already 5 years old, so let's not even mention the '80s or '90s stuff) even if their life depended on it. So I don't see them getting a japanese 360 (and doing all the research to actually get it working!) and spending $60+ on a simple 2D game "I can get for 1 buck at XBLA".
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by shadowbringer »

Obiwanshinobi:
in fighting games (such as Street Fighter, etc., I'm not meaning to say about beat'em ups here), the amount of health (and rounds) is taken into account by the designers. In some games (such as in SF4, SF3), different characters will be stunned more/less easily, and be able to take more/less damage, or else, they would be overpowered/underpowered, judging other attributes such as range, movement speed, attack speed, offense/defense options. Also, it's okay to lose some health if you can use this opportunity to learn what's your opponent's preferred offensive/defensive options (since then, as mentioned in the page I've linked earlier, if the opponent shows all of his/her options, they'll become much more predictable. Of course, this can be countered by more skilled players, who may sometimes not use a certain move for whole rounds, and use it to decide the match or start a strong pressure/mindgame, for example)

Sure, casual players can play fighting games "for fun", but there's the deeper, competitive potential (which gives a different kind of fun, by knowing and exploring the gameplay potential/possibilities), which won't be interesting for them. There's possibility for a game to appeal to both player profiles, I think that it's more difficult to happen with shmups, though.
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

Yeah, in some fighting games you can even sacrifice part of your lifebar to perform cool "forbidden" techniques (I think this was the case with Ninja Master's), or partially trade your health for "rage meter". Still, losing a life in this kind of games feels more "analogue", doesn't come as a surprise. The most sudden, punishing sting of humility is absent here.
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gs68
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by gs68 »

Danbo Daxter wrote:euroshmups aren't shmups, they have very little in common with any decent game. touhou has its heart in the right place.
Which is exactly what I'm talking about. I may not be a fan of so-called "euroshmups" but I don't go around raping anyone who is.
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by Chacranajxy »

gs68 wrote:You play euroshmups? What a faggot!
Well... kinda.
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by gs68 »

shadowbringer wrote:Sure, casual players can play fighting games "for fun", but there's the deeper, competitive potential (which gives a different kind of fun, by knowing and exploring the gameplay potential/possibilities), which won't be interesting for them. There's possibility for a game to appeal to both player profiles, I think that it's more difficult to happen with shmups, though.
Sadly I can't find anyone I would consider a "casual" fighter fan. Every fighting game player I know plays on a serious level, so for me to try to have fun with them would be like trying to have fun being raped in a dark alley.
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by BIL »

Meanwhile, in the shooting world...

Newbie: "But I poop from there!" ^_^;
DOJ: "Not right now you don't." ^_~
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MmSadda
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by MmSadda »

gs68 wrote: Sadly I can't find anyone I would consider a "casual" fighter fan. Every fighting game player I know plays on a serious level, so for me to try to have fun with them would be like trying to have fun being raped in a dark alley.
That's unfortunate... I love fighting games, but most any of them that I play, I play more casually. I've never been to a fighting game tournament or anything, I just like throwing 'em in the cabs with some buddies and a few beers... but I guess I'm probably in the minority, as people that actually own fighting games go.

BIL wrote:Meanwhile, in the shooting world...

Newbie: "But I poop from there!" ^_^;
DOJ: "Not right now you don't." ^_~
:lol: It's funny 'cuz it's true... and if DOJ was a person, he'd totally say that.
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by iluvmonsterz »

just to play devils advocate...the more developers use 3d models(ala death smiles 2) the more shmups seem to lose the charm and feel i fell for years ago...2d shmups have a "feel" to them that most 3d whores dont understand..i love cave mostly for the creativity heaped on their games(i know most of you love em for the difficulty) i look at DS2 and feel that cave is going the way of almost every developer out there...easy..3D. its fast and cheap and makes pretty splosions...a move towards mainstream..as long as shit looks good blowing up who cares how it looks beforehand, right? welcome to micheal bays world....soooooo will shmups remain a niche genre? not if the almighty DOLLAR/EURO/YEN has anything to do with it...UNLESS..developers can maintain some shred of ARTISTIC INTEGRITY. i think that is what makes our beloved genre a niche genre, very few of the core developers have "soldout" the overall spirit of the shoot em up and the unwashed masses dont like unhomogenized originality..
Last edited by iluvmonsterz on Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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iluvmonsterz
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by iluvmonsterz »

P.S. i d rather paly a euro shmup on a 10 inch sylvania black and white tv all goddamned day than spend 10 minutes playing call of duty, i hate that game on sheer priciple alone. let the flaming begin.
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by Kollision »

iluvmonsterz wrote:P.S. i d rather paly a euro shmup on a 10 inch sylvania black and white tv all goddamned day than spend 10 minutes playing call of duty, i hate that game on sheer priciple alone. let the flaming begin.
amen brother :)
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

iluvmonsterz wrote:2d shmups have a "feel" to them that most 3d whores dont understand.
"3D whores" doesn't mean anything anymore. There was a time when some people preferred 3D graphics over 2D no matter how ugly the former looked, but nowadays they don't even have a choice. Developers don't do 2D graphics in high resolutions because that would be bloody expensive (more expensive than in, say, 240x320). I'm sure nobody these days is impressed by polygons as such, whereas pretty 2D in high resolutions would be welcome, but not cost-effective. 2D will have another chance when LCD get replaced with more lo-res friendly technology.
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by drunkninja24 »

Obiwanshinobi wrote:
iluvmonsterz wrote:2d shmups have a "feel" to them that most 3d whores dont understand.
"3D whores" doesn't mean anything anymore. There was a time when some people preferred 3D graphics over 2D no matter how ugly the former looked, but nowadays they don't even have a choice. Developers don't do 2D graphics in high resolutions because that would be bloody expensive (more expensive than in, say, 240x320). I'm sure nobody these days is impressed by polygons as such, whereas pretty 2D in high resolutions would be welcome, but not cost-effective. 2D will have another chance when LCD get replaced with more lo-res friendly technology.
Yeah, when done well, high-res 2D can impress (a lot of my friends LOVED how Braid looked, and none of them are insane about 2D games), but it's not the cheapest stuff in the world to make.
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by iluvmonsterz »

i agree, its always about money...but if the indie guys are pulling it off cost effectively.....oh wait!!!! they dont drive hundred thousand dollar autos and have ridiculous homes....oh yeah...it costs lots of money to "make" games......artistic integrity is not something you sacrifice, you either have it or you sell it.
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by iluvmonsterz »

BLAZE BLUE.....
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

What's really absent is hand-drawn galore on Metal Slug level, but in high resolution. I think if making a hi-res side scroller graphically this varied and rich was cost-effective, Cave would have already made it. It's not like developers and gamers alike have forgotten how awesome 2D can be. Everybody wants good looking games, but only high resolutions look really good on LCDs. Upscaling doesn't quite cut it; it's always a compromise. Moreover, everybody wants to eat, therefore not every game you develop can be all sorts of uncompromising.
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by iluvmonsterz »

once again if developers can afford to do xbl games in a 2d high or near high def the larger companies certainly can as evidenced by the new 2d high res versions of hardcorps uprising and castlevania harmony of despair..slated for xbox live...and i have nothing against making a living but many high profile companies abuse the money they recieve....as anyone on this site knows well the dev team sees far less than the production manager or operations vp...not a question of the staff getting paid or if the game will make money, more of a question of whether the particular title is guarenteed to make enough to pay for the project managers new porshe and a side of thousand dollar an hour hooker...greed. why do we pay the same amount for downloaded games as we do their pysical versions which come with manuals box art and such, all of which some graphic designer was paid for(which is what i preffer above all else) and had to be manufactured? once again see my above statement....look at the garbage disney now pumps out, heartless souless 3D drivel that they can make 4 or 5 of a year but have very little personality...why does monsters inc look infinatly better than up even though MI is years older and 3D has gotten soooo much better and easier to use? spider man 1 and 3 anyone? cheap easy cash cows...and if we keep buyin it they ll keep makin it. a beautiful 2d game from ten years ago is still beautiful today...if the decision to make shmups is governed soley by greed we are fucked..sideways.
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

I'm gonna go out on a limb and state that Hard Corps: Uprising is neither as pretty, nor as graphically consistent as Metal Slug. The characters are sprites indeed, but the rest looks like rendered in real time rather than drawn by hand. It's not ugly, but still miles away from Metal Slug/In the Hunt/Geostorm.... (animations are better than in Geostorm alright).
To put it bluntly, I was more impressed by Contra: Shattered Soldier polygonal grahics than by Hard Corps: Uprising mixed graphics which are neither here nor there (admittedly, I've only seen gameplay vids of the latter).
All these things back up my opinion that the most over-the-top, uncompromising 2D overkill would be tricky/expensive to re-create in high resolutions. Personally I don't need high resolutions that badly, but people who don't own CRT displays anymore do need high resolutions, and developers keep trying to please those people rather than me.
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Re: Why shmups are such a niche genre

Post by Dragoforce »

MmSadda wrote:Oh, yeah, there's also COST OF ENTRY.

How many shmups have we gotten as full-fledged physical commercial releases in the U.S. lately? I can think of Raiden 4 and the Raiden compilation on 360..... the upcoming Deathsmiles release.... before those few, what was the last one? something on Gamecube?
There is a place called Europe that saw most of the shmups for PS2 released without any real effect.
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