Darius Gaiden question

[Aguilar]

Hello, im pretty new to the shmupping scene and recently got a Saturn a couple of weeks ago so get me started. I picked up Galactic Attack and Darius gaiden after seeing the reviews done for them by mark at the Classic Game Room. Ok ok on to my question I was wondering why everyone on Youtube and the high score thread on here uses the Full rapid fire, isnt that considered cheating? I just dont want to be the stupid one trying to beat the game with no rapid fire if everyone else is using it.

[Klatrymadon]

Most people play with it on, yeah. One of the rare instances in which people have embraced a "cheat" and just assume everybody else plays the same way. You'll be thankful for it against some of the bosses, I can tell you.

[louisg]

Yeah, the game is really made for rapid fire. I think it was a poor choice by Taito to not make that the default rate, given that most of the bosses will take about 10 minutes each if you just hold down the fire button. Also, the gameplay demo on the disc shows rapid fire. Other things you can do are alternating A and C to fire (hold the controller overhand), and point-blanking the bosses with missiles.

[ZOM]

I play it on mame with a medium fire-rate; it's sorta like a difficulty selector: some spots/bosses that are very hard without autofire are a joke with a high rate.
Using a slow fire-rate leaves the game still very challenging, at least for my sucky standards. hehe.

[louisg]

some spots/bosses that are very hard without autofire are a joke with a high rate.

Yeah, the hit points for the bosses are all over the map. I don't think it's balanced too well tbqh. I wish there were a game that combined the interesting level/enemy design and aesthetics with Metal Black's weapon balance.

[MathU]

Yes, it's definitely cheating. Darius Gaiden is one of those shoot 'em ups that becomes considerably easier with autofire. Plus you deprive yourself of the adrenaline rush for knowing when it is and isn't safe to focus on mashing the fire button. I think it removes an important aspect of the game.

Beat the game without it. It's so much more rewarding.

[Aguilar]

I havent practiced really with the rapid fire, and I do think its extremely helpful to the point where bosses arent NEARLY as challenging as before. For instance Zone B boss is practically dead after going into his second form.. Although im really having problems with Zone E boss. Zone I level in general gives me major problems, But I suppose thats all the fun about these games, memorizing.

[Klatrymadon]

Yeah, it makes the early bosses a cakewalk, but it stops the later ones from taking four hours, so it's a fair-enough tradeoff in the end, I think.

[saucykobold]

Yes, it's definitely cheating.

Hmm, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. If you're right, a number of oddities would follow. The vast majority of Darius Gaiden players cheat. Taito, Famitsu, and Gamest/Arcadia all sanction cheating. For example, the player featured in the Darius Premium Box makes use of autofire, as do the WR holders. If you find Darius Gaiden in a Japanese arcade, it'll almost certainly be tainted with an autofire circuit. Etc.

Plus you deprive yourself of the adrenaline rush for knowing when it is and isn't safe to focus on mashing the fire button. I think it removes an important aspect of the game.

The default rate removes a more important aspect--namely, playing for score. It's simply not feasible to destroy every boss part, capture every captain, and maintain a full bomb stock without autofire.

Beat the game without it. It's so much more rewarding.

This site has several high-scoring autofire runs (the required MAME versions are here). They clearly required many hours of practice and study. I'm sure the player (the Gaiden Extra WR holder, btw) would gape at the suggestion that a low-scoring non-auto run would be more difficult and rewarding.

[MathU]

The vast majority of Darius Gaiden players cheat. Taito, Famitsu, and Gamest/Arcadia all sanction cheating. For example, the player featured in the Darius Premium Box makes use of autofire, as do the WR holders. If you find Darius Gaiden in a Japanese arcade, it'll almost certainly be tainted with an autofire circuit. Etc.

I know, it's weird how prevalent cheating is in that respect. I guess lots of players' fingers just can't cut it.

The default rate removes a more important aspect--namely, playing for score. It's simply not feasible to destroy every boss part, capture every captain, and maintain a full bomb stock without autofire.

Again, this is where only the best of the best come in.

This site has several high-scoring autofire runs (the required MAME versions are here). They clearly required many hours of practice and study. I'm sure the player (the Gaiden Extra WR holder, btw) would gape at the suggestion that a low-scoring non-auto run would be more difficult and rewarding.

Your argument seems to be that if everyone cheats it's not cheating. I would counter by saying that the game clearly wasn't designed around maximum fire rate. With autofire you eliminate a lot of enemies before you can even see all their attacks, and that's even on a weaker piercing-type power level.

I'm not sure how it happened, but it seems as though with a lot of arcade shooters, the players with weaker tapping skills (which no doubt outnumber the others) demanded to level the playing field for them at some point. I guess this all comes down to whether or not you think button tapping speed (and concentration while you're doing it) is a skill. I think it is.


Why don't you go beat Darius Gaiden without autofire yourself and find out how much more you have to concentrate on boss attacks and power-up strategy without it? Take a route that ends at zone V. It's real easy.

Or just try beating Storm Causer without autofire. That's a fun one.


I don't really have any problem with people cheating on their own time. People should enjoy the games they own however they see fit. As long as they don't brag about their accomplishments when they do it, and don't do it in an online game where it affects others. All I'm saying is you're missing a bit of the depth--part of the thrill that the game was originally designed around--when you use autofire in Darius Gaiden.

[Mortificator]

As someone who almost always cleaned house whenever a multiplayer game had a button-tapping contest, I don't think manly thumb bragging rights are worth the wear & tear it puts on your joints. For virtually every shooter I play nowadays, I use autofire.

I also think the ridiculo-fast autofire you get from entering a cheat code in the home versions of Darius Gaiden (and automatically in the Extra arcade revision) is pretty lame, though. I set the autofire delay to something like 4 in MAME - saves my thumb, yet I can actually see the enemies' attack patterns.

[Subterranean Sun]

Yes, it works like a difficulty selector. If you are going to get a high score, you should definitly turn on autofire; If, however, you don't care about score and wants the game to be more challenging, then don't use it.

Actually, I think "Darius Gaiden WITH autofire" and "Darius Gaiden WITHOUT autofire" is two different games. I mean, some bosses (Storm Causer, for example) is ridiculously easy if you fight them with autofire, and will become a super asshole if you don't use autofire...

[ncp]

All I'm saying is you're missing a bit of the depth--part of the thrill that the game was originally designed around--when you use autofire in Darius Gaiden.

Tapping the same button as fast as possible for the entire duration of the game... thrill is not the word I would use. Maybe pain or annoyance, but definitely not thrill.

Certainly tapping is a skill, but shmups aren't hand endurance tests, they are video games for entertainment. If one enjoys killing their hands when there's a perfectly viable solution to the problem, I'm not going to try to stop them, but I certainly might question their sanity.

[fireleo4]

Hi!

I remember that i played Darius Gaiden (1cc in an Arcade in Shinjuku and the Coin Op had 3 Buttons. Fire,Bomb,Auto Fire. So i don´t think you´re cheating if you use the Autofire Option. I´ve seen several Darius Cabinets in Japan with the 3 Button Layout.

Regards
FireLeo

[Aguilar]

Im not sure if people misunderstood me but I was saying that I think the Rapid auto fire, the one you put in a cheat for is a cheat. Not the stock autofire, stock is good in my book..

[ncp]

Im not sure if people misunderstood me but I was saying that I think the Rapid auto fire, the one you put in a cheat for is a cheat. Not the stock autofire, stock is good in my book..

The "stock" arcade version is 2-button.

[Sturmvogel Prime]

Yes, it's definitely cheating.

I don't think so, Rapid Fire makes things easy, but it doesn't make you invincible.

[Dragoforce]

People who don't contribute in the high score forum should not be allowed to have any oponions regarding "cheating"

[Mero]

Hammering the fire button doesn't increase your fire rate very much (I don't have the luxury of autofire)

[BIL]

Again, this is where only the best of the best come in.

Do any of these "best of the best" players have replays / INPs available (assuming their scores are comparable to autofire users')? I just started playing DG again, and have promptly remembered why I stopped. Playing for score without some form of autofire is miserable thanks to the papery main gun, and I don't get much satisfaction from repeatedly pressing a button while sat at a screen (or survival-only play). I'd use a higher autofire delay, but standardised competition goes out the window when everyone's using their own rate.

I'm all for tapping when it feels like I'm doing some damage, something Taito completely forgot to convey with this game.

[Aguraki]

how do you set auto-fire on MAME?
which version of MAME do you need?

[Arcatech]

Mame plus! has autofire. Some other mame versions do as well but that is the one I prefer.

[dannnnn]

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30659

Use this version, it removes some of the lag in Darius Gaiden and it has autofire.

[Aguraki]

thx I tried with lagless mame(which I tried only with 2 games previously) and this is crazy how easier the game is.
I can understand the borderline cheating on this.
I also will probably play this with auto-fire from now though,cause tapping on a joypad is harder than on an arcade stick.
Maybe I'll complete this great game then eheh.

I usually don't play games that don't have default autofire as tapping is really tedious to me,and I don't have the stamina for it.
That's why Truxton is always a pain to play even if I love the game.
That's also why Donpachi fits better to me as the shot doesn't need furious tapping skills(and all these games with a semi auto-fire style).

[Drum]

Necrobump.

So I've been playing Darius Gaiden Extra Version, which goes well beyond 'autofire' with a truly ludicrous rate of fire, plus rearranged levels etc.
For me, this is the only way to play this game - never thought I'd play a Darius where's it's just enjoyable to shoot stuff (or enjoyable at all, I guess).
Just wondering what other people think about it - it didn't come up in this thread.

[Goshi]

Crusty Hammer is the first boss.

Crusty Hammer is the first boss.

Even worse you might pick stages that will cause you to fight Crusty Hammer again!

[burgerkingdiamond]

It's too damn hard to mash buttons on a pad, on a stick it's so much more comfortable. So I would say get a saturn stick and don't play with autofire.

[Drum]

Crusty Hammer is the first boss.

Crusty Hammer is the first boss.

Even worse you might pick stages that will cause you to fight Crusty Hammer again!

Crusty Hammer is the best boss.

[captpain]

Crusty Hammer is the first boss.

Crusty Hammer is the first boss.

Even worse you might pick stages that will cause you to fight Crusty Hammer again!

Crusty Hammer is the best boss.

Awesome boss fight, and nobody can complain that Extra Version doesn't start out with a bang.

[Aguilar]

Well with the diversity of shmups that i've played I prefer full auto-fire now for some reason.

Still sucking though, Zone G is kicking me every time. Working on it though.