Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

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Obiwanshinobi
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

ncp wrote:I wasn't implying it was "all about fanservice and nothing else", and it certainly had high production values. I just don't think it was at all like Aria, which is far and away my favorite anime/manga.
Aria ladies wear long skirts (no j-bendy-legs service here) and it all happens on Mars in the future, but both shows recycle the same set of archetypes for characters with comparable subtlety (or lack of it). Both have the same leading motive ("collecting the memories" I would say) and are equally anti-sensational. I do find more similarities than differences between them.
ncp wrote:It was also VERY popular, so I didn't really understand the "don't think it ever was a prominent anime phenomenon".
Have you watched at least the first series? I like to think K-On! gained popularity because it's pretty good rather than because it nailed some fixed target demographic. Or maybe people are fed up with the typical anime "robots and nurses and stuff" fare.
"I don't think it ever was a prominent anime phenomenon" because I don't see shows along the lines of Aria, Fuujin Monogatari (Windy Tales) etc. gaining MASSIVE following all that often. As far as I can tell K-On! is exceptional as it's popular without being ecchi, mecha, romance, melodrama and whatnot. Last time I checked "slices of life in beard of yours" wasn't a mainstream genre of anime. One swallow does not make a summer.
Although in my book the last great anime season to date was 2006 (Suzumiya and Gintama taking off with Eureka Seven still going), K-On! certainly isn't a poster child of today's anime wrongness.
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by Taylor »

This is the only good thing to come out of K-On.
greg wrote:
ncp wrote:edit: @greg Etna is like the definition of loli (at least as far as character design goes), please tell me you aren't serious
Oh she totally is not. I really do not see her as a loli figure. She's mature, just DFC. Her body is at least that of a teenager's, and she doesn't act like a lolicon airhead either. She's smart and mature and cunning.

But on the other hand, as for this Kodomo No Jikan and that link Ruldra provided, WT fucking F? At 30 seconds in, the little girl is lifting up her skirt and dropping her panties in front of that salariman or teacher or whatever? The show should be called "Kodomo no Chikan."

So check this out, Ex-Cyber and ncp, this video is loli, not Etna.
What are you talking about?
  1. You seem confused to what a loli character is. They don't have to be moeblobs, they just have to look young, which Etna does. When Haradaya draws people old they have breasts like balloons.
  2. Sending a whole army to go and get some pudding is not smart and cunning. She's a character in a comedy game.
  3. The two main female characters in Kodomo No Jikan are certainly cunning, given the whole series is about cockteasing a paedophile teacher, so that doesn't even fly.
I really don't get the whole loli thing. I wish Cave would stop cashing in on it. I miss the types of characters they did for Ketsui or Batsugun. At least Progear wasn't loli. Yes, they were young girls, but at least they didn't act like it (as far as I remember).
Sounds like you're more of a loli connoisseur.
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by evil_ash_xero »

Taylor wrote:The manga for Kodomo no Jikan was going to get a western release but was halted after translation due to it being, well, Kodomo no Jikan.

Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tZdrD1eahY
(Actually, the conclusion for this is on youtube. Probably shouldn't be, so if you click around watch out for NSFW).

Oh good lord....

Anyway, that one with her taking her top off, and having big boobs, and the guy getting turned off that she's "adult" is great.....
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

Taylor wrote:This is the only good thing to come out of K-On.
K-On! animations alone>that guitar wank (with all due respect for that gentleman's dexterity). (And they aren't even best character animations I've seen in a TV show; just above average.)
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by mesh control »

Sorry babe, but big boobs and pubic hair really turn me off.
lol
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by Ruldra »

greg wrote:I wish Cave would stop cashing in on it.
Unfortunately Cave won't stop for a long time. I remember them saying in a interview that lolis and stuff are what Cave is all about now. I died a little inside when I read that.

There's also this gem from one of the developer interviews:
Joker Jun mentions that Deathsmiles II is set one month after Deathsmiles because if it was any longer after that, the characters would have to age and 'we can't have that'.
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by Exarion »

Ruldra wrote:
greg wrote:I wish Cave would stop cashing in on it.
Unfortunately Cave won't stop for a long time. I remember them saying in a interview that lolis and stuff are what Cave is all about now. I died a little inside when I read that.

There's also this gem from one of the developer interviews:
Joker Jun mentions that Deathsmiles II is set one month after Deathsmiles because if it was any longer after that, the characters would have to age and 'we can't have that'.
Based upon Windia's appearance, it looks like it was set a few years BEFORE DeathSmiles I. Casper and especially Windia look younger than they did.
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by Ruldra »

Forgot to mention people are going WTF at the ending sequences of Deathsmiles II. Apparently Casper mentions she dresses sexy for her father.
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by Acid King »

antron wrote: evolution explains rape too.
Wha?
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by Ex-Cyber »

greg wrote:So check this out, Ex-Cyber and ncp, this video is loli, not Etna.
I never said or implied that Etna is "loli". My point is that she "appears to be" under 18 regardless of what her characterization and backstory say and thus porn of her could easily be construed as falling under some of the "simulated child porn" bans.
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by Taylor »

Obiwanshinobi wrote:
Taylor wrote:This is the only good thing to come out of K-On.
K-On! animations alone>that guitar wank (with all due respect for that gentleman's dexterity). (And they aren't even best character animations I've seen in a TV show; just above average.)
I was going to answer this with an 'apples vs oranges' style counter-argument. But, seriously, animations of someone playing a guitar are better than someone actually playing the guitar?

An actual comparison wasn't my point anyway. To reiterate: I don't like K-On.
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

Joker Jun mentions that Deathsmiles II is set one month after Deathsmiles because if it was any longer after that, the characters would have to age and 'we can't have that'.
Sounds more like a joke. I don't know Deathsmiles' plot, but they can always turn them into slowly ageing demon(esse)s with magic, can't they? Why the rush?
Taylor wrote:
Obiwanshinobi wrote:
Taylor wrote:This is the only good thing to come out of K-On.
K-On! animations alone>that guitar wank (with all due respect for that gentleman's dexterity). (And they aren't even best character animations I've seen in a TV show; just above average.)
I was going to answer this with an 'apples vs oranges' style counter-argument. But, seriously, animations of someone playing a guitar are better than someone actually playing the guitar?

An actual comparison wasn't my point anyway. To reiterate: I don't like K-On.
I don't like autoerotic manner of playing the electric guitar. Guitar solos (Slayer can get away with them, Peter Green can get away with them, Tommy Victor can get away with them, a few other guitarists can get away with them, but usually they seem to be there only for the sake of making a song longer) and guitar wanky frills tend to rub me the wrong way. At the moment I can think of only two electric guitar solos I like rather than tolerate: this one and that one.
K-On! character animations (body language, facial expressions etc.), on the other hand, are of rather good quality, therefore I wouldn't agree the show's no good at all, although I can see how it can be not quite up everyone's alley. When other anime try to make up for the low budget with cleavage, pants, CGI mecha and all sorts of cheap fanservice, it's good to see a show with consistently good production values every now and then.
P.S. I know singers need instrumental parts (breathing space), but does it have to be a vapid - if technically well performed - guitar solo everytime?
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by antron »

Acid King wrote:
antron wrote: evolution explains rape too.
Wha?
abortion is a modern invention.
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

Abortion is probably as old as humanity. Rape must be much older, though.
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by greg »

Ex-Cyber wrote:I never said or implied that Etna is "loli". My point is that she "appears to be" under 18 regardless of what her characterization and backstory say and thus porn of her could easily be construed as falling under some of the "simulated child porn" bans.
Etna is drawn youthfully, but then again most characters in Disgaea are drawn so. Only the old overlords are drawn as older adults. Anyway, Disgaea fortunately isn't a hentai, so any doujinshi porn can be drawn in any way the artist wants to, but the original creators won't be responsible for it.
Taylor wrote:What are you talking about?
  1. You seem confused to what a loli character is. They don't have to be moeblobs, they just have to look young, which Etna does. When Haradaya draws people old they have breasts like balloons.
  2. Sending a whole army to go and get some pudding is not smart and cunning. She's a character in a comedy game.
...
Sounds like you're more of a loli connoisseur.
Rozalin has a big chest, but she's only 17. That's not exactly "old." And she behaves in ways that are naive, whereas Etna does not. And Etna is cunning. She's trying to plot against Laharl. But it is a comedy and she does goofy stuff. Etna is not drawn like a child, nor does she act like one. I just don't see it that way. Loli is more prepubescent, and she doesn't fit that profile. And no, I'm not a loli connoisseur. Just a DFC/pettanko fan. Again, I just find it offensive that if a woman, either drawn or in real life, is seen as young because of the way she's built, then automatically she is young. People have looked oddly at me and my wife because they think she was a 14 year old girl, even though we're the same age. Not so much anymore that we've had a child now, but it's been a source of frustration for her. Even some people in Japan have mistaken her for a high school girl. She just looks young for her age. And no, that's not why I married her. I fell in love with her before we ever met in person. Besides, before I met her, I thought I was into tall girls, not petite girls.

So it's okay and accepted for people to think that Asuka from Evangelion is hot, for example, but not Etna, or so it seems. The only thing that differentiates the two is a cup size or two. Asuka isn't considered loli. If you'd read my rant on the previous page or so ago, you'll understand what I'm getting at. There is a huge difference between DFC and loli. Quite often they intersect, but not always. I like the former but not the latter. Why should people be allowed to judge women by the size of their busts? Quite often, Japanese girls are pretty flat chested. Just because they are depicted as such in anime doesn't mean that they are loli icons. Americans sexualize teenagers all the time in pop culture. Take those controversial Calvin Klein ads from several years back. Or pretty much any teen movie that focuses on kids losing their virginity or something. It's almost celebrated and no negative consequences are really ever shown (even the movie Juno was pretty lighthearted and not really portrayed realistically). It's hard to point fingers at Japan for doing nearly the same way, but in different ways. Some of you guys on here are just overreacting to characters that just have small busts. That's a bit different than lolicon crap.

Image
If you think pics like this are sexy, you must be one of the following:
1. Likely to become a pedophile,
2. Likely to fall in love with an alien princess, join her in the imperial navy and aid her in the subjugation of humankind and furthering the monopoly on space travel, or
3. Likely to be perfectly normal, because she's an awesome anime character.

I vote for 3.
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by Skykid »

greg wrote: If you think pics like this are sexy, you must be one of the following:
1. Likely to become a pedophile,
2. Likely to fall in love with an alien princess, join her in the imperial navy and aid her in the subjugation of humankind and furthering the monopoly on space travel, or
3. Likely to be perfectly normal, because she's an awesome anime character.

I vote for 3.
She's not really a Loli either.

There are a lot of people kidding themselves in this thread. Loli culture is more mainstream now with characters appearing in videogames and popular anime, but prior to the 'craze' they existed in Japan's underground bookstores in which they were used in graphic manga depicting child rape to sate the desires of Japanese men (and visiting foreigners) who had a lust for child abuse. The wealth of fap material was staggering and grotesque, but no bright spark would ever have dared make 'loli' mainstream - it just kind of found it's way there bit by bit, going from cute, to cute and underdressed.
I remember the first time some guy from work came back to the store from his Japan trip and unashamedly produced three volumes of material that we could hardly believe existed. Didn't do wonders for his reputation either.

The point is, perhaps not all people who like the 'design work' when it comes to Loli's are necessarily getting turned on, but you'd be ignorant to assume that they're not sexually fetishistic objects.

Children + sexual fetish = pedofilia.

That's all it is really. Can we stop discussing it now as it was already tasteless ages back.
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by Lordstar »

Its about men wanting something they cant have. I am guessing JP is just open about it.

I mean in the UK there is a pretty big thing about girls/women dressing like there from a private school. You go out in any city in the UK on the weekend and your going to bump in to girls dressed like school girls done up like whores.

The thing is the majority of people who watch read these things dont say ok well im going to take the step and go out and find myself an actual school girl becuase i want to extend my fantasy. Its just a fantasy for 99.9% of people. Thats just fine.
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by greg »

Skykid wrote: She's not really a Loli either.
...
Children + sexual fetish = pedofilia.
Thank you! I was able to prove my point then. I just got a bit concerned when 1. my dear Etna was maligned, and 2. I was considered a "loli connoisseur." Now I know how Specineff feels when he says, "That's not a furry! It's just a cat girl! Know the difference!" LOL!
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by Lordstar »

Etna is legal becuase shes 1470.

I'm in to Catgirls but im not a furry. there is a pretty big difrence between the two.
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by Skykid »

Lordstar wrote:Its about men wanting something they cant have. I am guessing JP is just open about it.
...Is that all there is to it then? :|
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

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I think looking at porn and doing it in real life are very different things. Who fucks like a porn star really?
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by jonny5 »

Lordstar wrote:I think looking at porn and doing it in real life are very different things. Who fucks like a porn star really?
non-virgins? :lol:

people with partners? :lol:
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by cools »

Lordstar wrote:I think looking at porn and doing it in real life are very different things. Who fucks like a porn star really?
Don't be so naive ;)
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by jonny5 »

cools wrote:
Lordstar wrote:I think looking at porn and doing it in real life are very different things. Who fucks like a porn star really?
Don't be so naive ;)
he did say 'he thinks'....cant fault him for guessing :lol:
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by AraraSPAMWitch »

greg wrote: Image
If you think pics like this are sexy, you must be one of the following:
1. Likely to become a pedophile,
2. Likely to fall in love with an alien princess, join her in the imperial navy and aid her in the subjugation of humankind and furthering the monopoly on space travel, or
3. Likely to be perfectly normal, because she's an awesome anime character.

I vote for 3.
YOU FORGOT CHOICE #4:

LIKELY TO BE A COMPLETE SADLIFE

KEEP ON FAPPING TO YOUR 2D WAIFU WHILE I FUCK MY SUPERMODEL GIRLFRIEND IN HER ASS, LOSER
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by greg »

AraraSPAMWitch wrote:YOU FORGOT CHOICE #4:

LIKELY TO BE A COMPLETE SADLIFE

KEEP ON FAPPING TO YOUR 2D WAIFU WHILE I FUCK MY SUPERMODEL GIRLFRIEND IN HER ASS, LOSER
I was just making a point, dude. Way to go at being a retarded troll. We were talking about anime characters anyway. Imaginary supermodel girlfriend? I'm not at all jealous. Have fun doing her like a boy, ya queer.

How's that for countertrolling?
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by AraraSPAMWitch »

greg wrote: I was just making a point, dude. Way to go at being a retarded troll.
Way to write several hundred words defending your taste in animated women! Sorry bro, but I find it hard to resist poking fun at anime fans who get so defensive about such a silly thing.
Have fun doing her like a boy, ya queer.
That's half the fun. 8)
How's that for countertrolling?
Would've been better in all caps and poor English!
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by greg »

AraraSPAMWitch wrote: Way to write several hundred words defending your taste in animated women! Sorry bro, but I find it hard to resist poking fun at anime fans who get so defensive about such a silly thing.
At least it was on-topic, ya cockmuncher. If you close your eyes, you can pretend she's a boy.
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

AraraSPAMWitch wrote:YOU FORGOT CHOICE #4:

LIKELY TO BE A COMPLETE SADLIFE

KEEP ON FAPPING TO YOUR 2D WAIFU WHILE I FUCK MY SUPERMODEL GIRLFRIEND IN HER ASS, LOSER
With one of your action figures?
AraraSPAMWitch wrote:Sorry bro, but I find it hard to resist poking fun at anime fans who get so defensive about such a silly thing.
I for one find it sort of amusing how those who poke this kind of light-hearted fun at, say, MMO junkies, become WoW addicts themselves.
There is nothing wrong with being a videogaming, anime-watching, internet-polluting manbaby. What makes it sad is pissing on each other along those lines. "Real life = playing shmups instead of jRPGs", whoa.
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Re: Japan and lolis...what's with this exactly?

Post by Specineff »

IBTL.

And thanks for referencing my joke, Greg. :D
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