Why shmups are such a niche genre

[TrevHead (TVR)]

i can imagine some reviewers starting to slag off traditional shmups and wishing they they were like S&P2

still treasures game might make some ppl who really liked it to approach death smiles with a more open mind

[gs68]

I've found that lately, saying "think Touhou" when describing a bullet hell shooter has become a necessity rather than an annoyance.

[soloista]

In general gamers are becoming lazier and more "casual", with QTE-laden stuff everywhere and handholding, in the name of making things "cinematic".

Here's some terrifying food for thought:

In an age where interactivity is part of most people's daily lives, games should take their place as our pre-eminent art and entertainment form. In order to achieve this, however, they must take risks and - at least to some extent - leave behind childish things....

...Games might be growing up, and it is about time, says Cage. "We need to stop making games for kids. That's enough."

Cage hopes that Heavy Rain will be to games what Citizen Kane was for films.

(source.)

Seriously, postmodernist thought is beginning to get on my nerves. I just came from a graduate show for an art school today, so...

[toaplan_shmupfan]

Cinematic games are okay, as long as they are clearly labelled as such, and ideally if the cutscenes can be skipped at the press of a single button.

But those were already done, this concept really isn't new.

Sega CD had lots of those--many of them by Digital Pictures which would actually place them ahead of their time (despite obviously lower quality acting) if that's what the players want now--in that many of those games were predominantly full motion video with the player having very little interaction other than pressing a direction on the D-pad and pressing a button. I think Sewer Shark may have actually had the longest gameplay (target shooting) in between FMV sequences, but it still wasn't a full shmup, there were frequent cutscenes interrupting the action.

Then again, casual gamers probably wouldn't like those older Sega CD titles as far as actual gameplay because of very strict game requirements. (Sewer Shark had minimum scores and accuracy percentages to pass to the next section, something else like Double Switch is so fast-action with switching rooms and setting off traps there is really no time to watch the scenes in each room.)

But they might like something similar to The 7th Guest, another cinematic type of game that was already done a while back. Go to a room, watch the cutscene, click an area to play a minigame, finish the minigame, go to another room, repeat. The story unfolds along with cutscenes, and as long as they can save their progress, they can continue playing the game as little or as much as they want, until they finish the game by completing all the minigames.

[gs68]

I've managed to get a friend into Espgaluda II iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad version. It's this sort of stuff that makes me feel hopeful for Cave (and the bullet hell subgenre) in general; more gamers are viewing Cave as a developer of high-quality shooters rather than a name to run away from really fast.

[Exarion]

By the way, IGN has reviewed ESPGaluda 2 for the iPhone. Score:7.8

And it's filled with errors. Listing all of the ones I could find would come very close to quoting the whole review. And they still gave it a better score than they give most iPhone games. There is at least some market for shmups here.

[MadScientist]

You can't please everybody though. One of the comments on there;

"For the price they are charging for this, I would hope this was a 9. I'll wait until the price drops to a 7.8 level... around $4."

[gray117]

itunes... + the consumer... and the mad marketplace scramble ... ergh...

The sense of entitlement is just staggering. Assumed authority is baffling - talking of which - ign review; as if equating polygon performance, to processor, and 2d requirements is legitimate on any system.

Shmups are such a niche genre due to general ignorance and fashions bias... its as complicated and simple as that.

Now give me exclusive crysis 3 on my original iphone for $1!

[MadScientist]

I think shmups have come back into vogue a little bit over the past few years. Part of it is the online aspect where you have leaderboards where you can easily compare your score against friends and all that. If you were just playing a shmup on your PS2 and you had no-one to compare your scores against, most people might lose interest. Or maybe achievements and stuff like that might encourage people to keep playing. They just need a hook of some kind beyond just 'keep getting better' otherwise they just want to play through something once to 'experience' it then move onto something else.

When Genetos was updated recently, I saw comments from non-shmuppers that said they really liked it and it appealed to them more than most shmups. I'm guessing part of that is because it's quite easy compared to most shmups and you can 'experience' all of it on your first attempt.

[gray117]

Sure, but its still a pretty elite/unique vogue and thus niche...

[neorichieb1971]

24 pages to work out why a genre is niche.

[Exarion]

Raystorm HD reviews appeared!

IGN: 6.5. States that the game has not held up well, and with so many other good shooters, this one isn't very good by comparison.

Gamespot:4.0. States that the game is too short, too hard, too retro, too derivative, has too much onscreen, and has no depth.

I notice IGN has been better than Gamespot for almost every shmup review. IGN at least acknowledges the concept of playing for score, but does not base their reviews on it. Gamespot completely ignores the idea of score and just credit feeds to the end, with the exception of one reviewer.

[gs68]

Still doesn't beat GameSpot giving Giga Wing a 4.4, or that one review (which is now offline) that gave GW the lowest rating possible, with "so easy you just press start every time 'continue' shows up" as one of the weak points.

[Ed Oscuro]

In general gamers are becoming lazier and more "casual", with QTE-laden stuff everywhere and handholding, in the name of making things "cinematic".

Here's some terrifying food for thought:

In an age where interactivity is part of most people's daily lives, games should take their place as our pre-eminent art and entertainment form. In order to achieve this, however, they must take risks and - at least to some extent - leave behind childish things....

...Games might be growing up, and it is about time, says Cage. "We need to stop making games for kids. That's enough."

Cage hopes that Heavy Rain will be to games what Citizen Kane was for films.

(source.)

Seriously, postmodernist thought is beginning to get on my nerves. I just came from a graduate show for an art school today, so...

I love how that guy thinks that being a shill for games = TRUE ART

True art in my book is making the most out your medium, like programming new titles for old arcade boards...then again, I'm just a postmodernist poet, what the hell do I know about film and games

[gs68]

To that guy who raised piracy like some pages ago: If it weren't for piracy, I wouldn't have gotten into Cave shooters as quickly; I'd end up having to be introduced via TLBs on YouTube rather than trying out DonPachi and DoDonPachi on a whim after having heard brief mentions of them.

A lot of other shooters would've gone unplayed as well, such as all of Raizing's lineup.

[neorichieb1971]

Indeed, Raystorm was more of a polygon shifter in its hey day showing off transparenices, rotating and reflective polygons etc. Nowadays 15 years on the emphasis is all on the gameplay. To me Raystorm was always a atmospheric shooter that you relaxed to play. Obviously Raystorm was chosen because of its polygon roots and ability to upgrade rather easily, but without upgrading the gameplay I'm afraid those reviews aren't far from what I would give them.

I completed Raystorm 2 or 3 times on PS1, I've never gone back to it with enthusiasm.

[Jockel]

Raystorm HD sucks anyway, so good call on their sides

[wiNteR]

I notice IGN has been better than Gamespot for almost every shmup review.

Well I have noticed this in general for gamespot reviews, not just shoot'em ups. IGN are given a lot of slack for their god hand score. But if you actually read several reviews from both GS and IGN for the same set of games, which you played significantly, then you would begin to notice a marked difference in the quality of review text - leave aside the scores.

Gamespot reviews are usually filled generic statements that one can easily retract from later on. So basically, there is no concrete analysis or observations. This is a safe way to write a review, but also a poor one. Unfortunately this sort of writing also seems to appeal to lot of people.

[BIL]

I completed Raystorm 2 or 3 times on PS1, I've never gone back to it with enthusiasm.

Completed as in credit-fed, you mean? Raystorm isn't what most would consider a relaxing shooter at all, when played seriously.

[Klatrymadon]

Gamespot reviews are usually filled generic statements that one can easily retract from later on. So basically, there is no concrete analysis or observations. This is a safe way to write a review, but also a poor one. Unfortunately this sort of writing also seems to appeal to lot of people.

This is absolutely true, of course, but I think what's annoying about that RayStorm piece is that it isn't just safe; it's fraught with a peevish, churlish bewilderment that betrays a ten-minute playing time. It's not so much that he hasn't understood the game, but that he hasn't tried to, couldn't give a shit, and has turned in 1000 words of perfunctory copy on it anyway. It's a contemptuously sloppy article of the kind that you shouldn't be able to get away with professionally.

[Exarion]

Odd as it may be, Metal Slug XX has recieved an XBLA release. Isn't this pretty much the same thing as 5pb attempting to release DDPDOJBLEX on XBLA? Either Microsoft has changed their mind, or they are being very incosistent.

[rancid3000]

Odd as it may be, Metal Slug XX has recieved an XBLA release. Isn't this pretty much the same thing as 5pb attempting to release DDPDOJBLEX on XBLA? Either Microsoft has changed their mind, or they are being very incosistent.

I downloaded and played the demo today. The game itself plays pretty well but the graphics really bother me. It's like when you use one of those terrible MAME smoothing effects. I also find it strange that the preview pics on the market place only show the menus and nothing of the gameplay.

I hope Microsoft has changed their mind about arcade ports but it seems unlikely.

[Zaarock]

Odd as it may be, Metal Slug XX has recieved an XBLA release. Isn't this pretty much the same thing as 5pb attempting to release DDPDOJBLEX on XBLA? Either Microsoft has changed their mind, or they are being very incosistent.

I downloaded and played the demo today. The game itself plays pretty well but the graphics really bother me. It's like when you use one of those terrible MAME smoothing effects. I also find it strange that the preview pics on the market place only show the menus and nothing of the gameplay.

I hope Microsoft has changed their mind about arcade ports but it seems unlikely.

Seems you guys are forgetting that Guwange is going to come out on XBLA. Metal Slug XX is a new game and the XBLA version has lots of extras, so I dont see how it fits the "old arcade port" idea.

[Kiken]

Odd as it may be, Metal Slug XX has recieved an XBLA release. Isn't this pretty much the same thing as 5pb attempting to release DDPDOJBLEX on XBLA? Either Microsoft has changed their mind, or they are being very incosistent.

Not really. MSXX is a port of a PSP game (MSXX) that was a port of a DS game (MS7). It was designed for the home market and included plenty of extras. Not to mention that the name Metal Slug carries a hell of a lot more weight than Dodonpachi when it comes to international awareness.

Also, people need to stop using the 5pb/DOJ/XBLA nonsense as some sort of barometer. 5pb never gave up the specifics of how they presented the games to Microsoft for approval. For all we know, they were probably demonstrating nothing beyond glorified emulation.. no additional game modes or content (they probably hadn't even thought about the X-Modes at that point) which would have made the games appear pretty fucking "dry". And do we really need to point out the whole stolen code fiasco that occured with DOJ BLEX? Most likely it would have resulted in the game being delisted had it been released on XBLA anyway.

Seems you guys are forgetting that Guwange is going to come out on XBLA. Metal Slug XX is a new game and the XBLA version has lots of extras, so I dont see how it fits the "old arcade port" idea.

Well, Cave's approach was a bit different. They went for physical media releases first and then held an online vote to decide on a downloadable game. It's highly likely that they presented Guwange to Microsoft as such ("hey MS, we've had decent success in peddling this genre in physical format and this is what our players voted on, here's the results"), plus showing that there would be 3 different game modes for people to play, so it wasn't a straight arcade port (the fact that the third mode happens to incorporate twin-stick control probably helped).

[Taylor]

24 pages to work out why a genre is niche.

Nah, one page, then 23 more arguing with trolls.

[Lucas]

Hey everyone, I came across this place looking for info on the scoring system for Progear (totally awesome, and I dont normally do horizontal shmups outside of Border Down), and saw this thread....and the reason I am here is one of the reasons.

Theres a game design principle (beautifully illustrated in Portal), that says "You must teach your player everything you want them to know about the game". Shmups don't do that, and if they do, its very, very cursory (Psyvariar 2 comes to mind). So you play through these games, and have not a damn clue on what to do. Because of that, you get through a level, and are like "Ok, that was hard for no reason." With a crap score, using 3 continues, and maybe a bad taste in your mouth.

The reason is because that paradigm is left over from the arcade era, and only people who are already into shmups, or are willing to search out the info on an obscure internet forum are rewarded with an intricate knowledge of the game mechanics.

These games take skill no matter how much you know about the game, so its unfortunate that potential new fans are turned away from the genre.

[Taylor]

Progear has a stick for movement, two fire buttons, a bomb button, and a slip on the cabinet telling you how the gem system works. This tells you immediately you can move, shoot, and cancel bullets. What's left? And, yes, while that gem system should've been explained in-game, all modern shmups now do this.

[Kollision]

Awesome 1st post, Lucas.
I think I kind of agree with you.

[Lucas]

Awesome 1st post, Lucas.
I think I kind of agree with you.

Thank you!

Progear has a stick for movement, two fire buttons, a bomb button, and a slip on the cabinet telling you how the gem system works. This tells you immediately you can move, shoot, and cancel bullets. What's left? And, yes, while that gem system should've been explained in-game, all modern shmups now do this.

Are you referring to this?
http://www.world-of-arcades.net/APPA/PP ... 2_engl.jpg

That is very cursory, and I understood that it did that when I first played. However, I had to come here to find out

Basically what you want to do is at first cancel enemy bullets with your "normal" shot and collect the "rings" that they drop. Once you've collected enough rings, the ring icon in the lower left will change; this indicates how much "stones" (the things that bullets turn into when destroyed with the "gunner" weapon instead) are worth. Once you have enough rings to make the stones worth the most (they should look like diamonds when you cancel bullets into them), then you want to find a nice big bunch of bullets to cancel into stones, in order to "cash in" the ring value. Once you do this the ring value will go down, so you'll have to start collecting rings again to raise the stones' value back up.

Rings are only created from bullets that are directly caught in an explosion, but stones cause chain reactions--a bullet transforming into a stone causes nearby bullets to transform as well. The higher the jewel level (amethyst -> ruby -> emerald -> diamond), the longer a chain reaction is possible. This has implications for survival strategy as well as scoring: you can clear the screen of bullets with a good chain reaction.

ACTIVE is increased solely by cancelling bullets into stones in Gunner Mode. Proof: Play through Stage 1 without using Gunner Mode at all, or only using it on the boss after destroying all its fins and turrets (so no stones are created). The ACTIVE meter will be completely empty at the end of the stage.

SAFE is essentially a survival-time gauge: it increases at a constant rate over time, decreases by a fixed amount when you die, and increases when you use a bomb (apparently by a fixed amount, regardless of the bomb's duration or effect) Ring/Chain and Bolt/Nail fill the SAFE meter twice as quickly as other combinations do. Proof: Using a given combination of pilot and gunner, if you play through stage 1 without using a bomb and without dying, the SAFE meter will always be filled to the exact same amount at the end of the stage.

LOVELY is, as I mentioned before, simply the average of ACTIVE and SAFE.

Whenever you collect a bomb and receive the x2 multiplier, the base stone goes up, to a maximum of the big emerald. This makes it easier to collect diamonds since the number of rings you need to collect is less.

- The jewel count determines the duration of your bombs. When you press the bomb button, the bomb emerges from your plane and flies somewhat slowly towards the right. When the bomb touches enemies or bullets, its flight slows down and your jewel count rolls down as the bomb continually damages the enemies and turns the bullets into rings (bullets transformed by a bomb always turn into small amethyst rings of minimum value). When your jewel count reaches zero, or when the bomb reaches the right edge of the screen, the bomb explodes. The explosion has a fixed duration. Your plane is invulnerable from the moment the bomb is released until the end of the explosion.

- When the jewel count is 10000 or higher, you receive points for each of your bullets (including your gunner's projectiles) that strikes an enemy. The points you get per bullet are equal to your jewel count / 10000 (truncated) times 10. This per-bullet bonus is doubled if you have the maximum bomb bonus--that's what the "x2" means! Note that getting the maximum bomb bonus also immediately adds 10000 to your jewel count.

There is also a dynamic of changes on your Pilot/Gunner combo, but thats another whole page.

So while the instructions shows you the controls and the cursory way to play...it really does not give you any sense of how to get better.

While I have not been up on the newest Shmups since say, 2005 or so, I dont recall any of them really telling you how to play outside of those cursory options. If that were so, I dont think this would exist

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=1896

[Ed Oscuro]

24 pages to work out why a genre is niche.

Nah, one page, then 23 more arguing with trolls.

0 pages of discussion, 24 of troller-lollery.

Cinematic games are okay, as long as they are clearly labelled as such, and ideally if the cutscenes can be skipped at the press of a single button.

I know you're talking about shooters in particular, so this might seem slightly off-focus, but I disagree that games designers have an obligation to nicely label genre or anything else. For marketing purposes, I'm sure they can't avoid it, but from an artistic and gameplay perspective, there's no need. They can and ought to do whatever works best for the game. Cutscenes can be interactive, after all; there's different ways of getting "story" into games that don't involve static screens (many games use "filmic lite" methods of story pacing, i.e. boos rushes past screen, appears later, that kind of thing). I think for many shooters it's important to have cool-down / rest periods though.