The future of PCB's

[neorichieb1971]

I don't know if this is the right place to put this thread so please move if necessary.

Regardless of your thinking, the arcade PCB is soon to become a thing of the past. With only a handful of companies still making them, with Cave being one of the few successful candidates left, I feel the PCB's age has reached its end.

I may be wrong, but once the PCB era is left out in the cold we as collectors of arcade hardware will have the lions share of kits still intact. Not to mention a big share of the naked PCB's still working.

So the biggest question is.. Will arcade PCB's become more valuable as they get older? Or will interest in them wane to the point of them being worthless? Maybe its middle ground between the two. I know I will be hated for saying this, but the arcade hardware I bought was kind of like my own piggy bank, a case of enjoying my money tied up in PCB's and cabs, instead of leaving it in the bank drawing 0.3% interest. I've piled several thousands of pounds into PCB's and cabinets so would like to know where my investment is going. Of course, I enjoy them a lot and display them proudly. I don't even know if I could come to sell any of them anyway, but would like to know where you see their values lie in say 10 years time.

regards,

Richie.

[cools]

:vomit:

They're games. Play them, enjoy them, don't worry about lifespan or future monetary value. Life's too short to worry about such trivia.

[EOJ]

Games (arcade or console) are a terrible investment but a great hobby.

[Skykid]

Games (arcade or console) are a terrible investment but a great hobby.

I would say they're both a decent investment (depending on your tastes) and a great hobby, perhaps in the same way comic book collecting was for the generations before us (and they've seen some return on their silver age stuff.)

I love every inch of my games collection, but absolutely hate its size sometimes, especially when I've moved several times in the last 8 years.
I'm of the belief that scarcity can increase perceived value, similarly to Nintendo and their fabricated shortages - and yes, I reckon the rarer stuff that's readily available on ebay now probably won't be in five years time. Whether or not the interest in retro gaming fizzles out, remains buoyant or simply explodes at that point will definitely dictate the value of your collection Richy.

It's interesting to note the next gen hardware will probably do away with physical gaming, making everything prior a novelty (and to some, a burden.) Whether that increases interest and makes back catalogues more desirable remains to be seen - maybe boxes and instruction books will end up being viewed as unique gaming relics in twenty years (at which point you'll probably have games being piped to your brain.)

Personally I'm with both your own and cool's standpoints. I'm a gamer and I love playing the stuff and that's enough value in itself for me. Like a time capsule, I can re-visit 8/16/32bit stuff etc. and love it for not only being great to play but reminding me of where I was when I first laid eyes on it. but as I get toward thirty I do feel owning physical goods with good resale possibilities is a bonus, and I'd be happy to see it appreciate. If I ever get tired of it all, I like the idea of selling it off and buying something else.

This thread is definitely in the wrong place tho dude. It's an off topic I reckon.

[neorichieb1971]

Regardless of what you think. When you get into PCB''s you do end up spending a lot of cash. I'm about £4000 in the hole. I know that now is a time I can recooperate almost if not more than what I spent. If in 5 years time the desire for this stuff becomes zero, I would rather cash in now whilst its worth something.

I only want to keep the stuff if its going to retain its value.

[EOJ]

I only want to keep the stuff if its going to retain its value.

Well you simply can't accurately predict what will retain its value, let alone what will raise in value. So if you're not a gambling type, sell off the stuff. You should really only buy this stuff with extra money you don't mind losing, just like in any other hobby.

[cools]

And with the 360 getting lots of great ports now, no reason to hoard costly PCBs that are more likely to reduce in price than increase.

[neorichieb1971]

Well, I don't mind losing 25%-35%, but losing all of it is not a consideration.

[kernow]

Even though places like fujita and excellent sell new pcb's to anyone, its always been a kind of 'not for home use' market of course. I hate the way boards are treated like a running stock exchange. But thats obviously going to happen.

In short, play what you like who cares.

[spadgy]

It's interesting to note the next gen hardware will probably do away with physical gaming, making everything prior a novelty (and to some, a burden.) Whether that increases interest and makes back catalogues more desirable remains to be seen - maybe boxes and instruction books will end up being viewed as unique gaming relics in twenty years (at which point you'll probably have games being piped to your brain.)

This is certainly interesting. When a near-future generation completely oblivious to the charms of physical media reach a point where they're old enough to indulge cash in expensive hobbies, perhaps it will seem ludicrous to them that something on a physical format will have any great value. However, I'm hoping the mystic will at least keep PCBs desirable, if not financially valuable.

I'm pretty sire original Difference Engines would cost a fortune right now.

Finally - I'm amazed this hasn't made its way to off topic yet...

[Magic Knight]

I've sold 76 boards from my collection over the years. The total cost to me when buying was £3080.07, plus £465.78 for shipping, total £3545.85. I sold them for £3460.74, so I'm only down £85, an average of just over £1 per board. Some sell for less, some for more.

The important thing is the age of the board usually. I spent 41111 yen on Psycho Soldier but I'm not worried about its value dropping, because it's a 23-year-old game. The biggest problem arises when the game breaks, and you then have to weigh up whether it's worth getting fixed or selling as is. My Sky Kid Deluxe broke yesterday. Because of its value I will definitely get it fixed, because I know the cost of repair will be a lot less than the amount I can sell it for - if I ever need the money.

But yes, just buy and play what you like.

[Skykid]

I only want to keep the stuff if its going to retain its value.

As EOJ said, you're gambling if this is the most important factor - but you probably already know that. Any collector has a good idea of the more desirable and valuable genre's in videogames (I think shmups definitely have the edge in the $$ stakes, whereas fighting games - bar Kizuna Encounter - tend to be less so) but it is a bit of an impossibility to judge where something will end up in years to come.

I actually think PCB's are the most volatile area of the market for price fluctuation and therefore the biggest risk where investments are concerned. Console stuff seems more constant.

Even though PCB's seem to be spiking at the moment - and I have a feeling this is because Japanese prices seem to be on the climb - you could just as well find that Cave stuff, for instance, nosedives when the inevitable PC emulation appears.

[GaijinPunch]

I would say they're both a decent investment (depending on your tastes) and a great hobby,

99.9% of games drop in value dramatically after they are released. That's an awful investment.

And with the 360 getting lots of great ports now, no reason to hoard costly PCBs that are more likely to reduce in price than increase.

Unless you actually play the PCBs. Not a single port has urged me in the slightest to sell my PCB version, except maybe Death Smiles b/c I actually like 1.1 better than 1.0 (and b/c I don't own it).

[neorichieb1971]

Well I guess if a lot of people are like GP thats incentive to keep my own. The worst fear is that collectors all start dumping their PCB's around the same time. If people keep them it matters little what happens with emulation and ports, because the original is the original. I'd like to think the more time goes on, the rarer the originals become.

The reason I brought up this thread is because i'm getting married soon and i've been asked to question if my investment in games is a logical one. Really, I just want some firepower to justify keeping my stuff. I know this opens a different can of worms for debate, but anyone getting into a life long relationship needs to know the other half is making justified decisions. Most likely i'll have to quit PCB collecting at that point of marriage, but i'll probably keep my games that i've gotten so far.

The reason i put this thread here in trading is because I wanted to know what the traders think.

[nZero]

The reason i put this thread here in trading is because I wanted to know what the traders think.

The reason I moved this thread to Off Topic is because it's off topic in trading.

[dcharlie]

The reason I brought up this thread is because i'm getting married soon and i've been asked to question if my investment in games is a logical one.

about 2 and a bit years ago i cashed in all my arcade boards , almost all my retro , a large chunk of modern gaming and all my arcade machines.

The main driver was to get as much cash together to put a deposit down on a house and because we were expecting our first kid, secondary to that was we would need more space even in the larger house.

I can honestly say, now that we are in the house and the kid is born and i'm back collecting again, that i regret selling stuff off. Okay, this time round i've made better use of ebay/auctions and have only when the Japanese route when -absolutely- necessary (many boards being much more expensive here) - and i made a nice chunk of cash cashing in. But in the process i shed a ton of stuff i regret getting rid of.

That said, the question sounds a little loaded - i assume your future wife has asked you to consider this (?) so perhaps it's more a hint than a question (?) (e.g. "Sell this stuff")

[Dragoforce]

Games (arcade or console) are a terrible investment but a great hobby.

True. There was a swedish game collector who made quite a name for himself by selling and buying a lot of different games. His goal was to become a millionaire by doing so. Off course he failed miserably and is something of a laughing stock nowdays (not only for that though) I mean no offence to you neorichieb, I just find the notion of collection games as an investment to be a bit odd.

[neorichieb1971]

After a year of buying PCB's I noticed several titles I bought went up in value. The ones that didn't stood firm. After a while I convinced myself there is no risk in buying PCB's because of the history of pricing. All my Cave stuff is worth at least as much as I paid.

Like I said I don't want to profit from PCB's (Which seems to be what your all thinking) I just want some kind of reassurance that PCB's won't become like VHS or laserdisc. I want to believe as I'm sure most of you do, that PCB buying is a smart gamers choice. I buy all my PCB's and kits when they are affordable to me. I don't go out and buy the latest Cave kit on day 1 brand new and expect a return on it. My most expensive game is my Mushi kit, hardly breaking the bank. But if you add up all my stuff together, its a lot to me. I guess my woman wants to believe that i'm making a sound choice of where i'm putting my money. She will support my hobbies in moderation but as she put it "Technology moves on, your games are not moving so they will get old and out of date". Then I thought i'd get your opinions on it. She loves my atomiswave and is convincing me right now to keep it as I was considering a swap for another cabinet. Basically, my fear is in 3 years time when she has the right to say "I told you so".. Been there and done that in my last marriage.

[Ex-Cyber]

I just want some kind of reassurance that PCB's won't become like VHS or laserdisc.

You mean they're not already? The industry has all but abandoned them (IMO a very slightly customized PC running Windows isn't really a "PCB" anymore in the arcade sense of the term), only a few are considered truly collectible, and most are rotting away in storage because by and large nobody thinks they're worth the trouble of trying to sell.

[sven666]

True. There was a swedish game collector who made quite a name for himself by selling and buying a lot of different games. His goal was to become a millionaire by doing so. Off course he failed miserably and is something of a laughing stock nowdays (not only for that though) I mean no offence to you neorichieb, I just find the notion of collection games as an investment to be a bit odd.

nerx ?

im glad my personal finances and gamescollection are two separate things entierly or else id be sweating cave drops!

i say if you enjoy it keep it, no one can know for sure what will happen 10 years down the road but if you look at 20year old games, some are worthless and some are worth a fortune... sell the ones you feel you do not enjoy playing.

[Elixir]

I sold off most of my stuff because I don't like having money tied up in goods that are continually dropping in value. I managed to make a profit from most of the PCBs I owned, except for Futari which was due to the port. It's too much hassle, I'll just stick to the (usually) superior ports with HD and stuff. I don't have an income where I can play stockmarket with PCBs all day long.

[Domino]

I stop doing the PCBs game because it is like I keep 1cc the PCBs in less than three days that I get them in the mail (I usually don't play the game again when I 1cc it). Also the Japanese Yen is strong against the Dollar so if I get something from Japan I will most likely lose money on it when selling it here in the US. I also keep moving at different addresses because of my college education and I can't bring around the Egret everywhere that I go.

While playing on a cab is great (and the best way) it was too much of a pain in the ass for me.

[Ganelon]

If you buy PCBs expecting to make any money on them, you're looking at the wrong place and are depriving others of enjoyment while you're hoarding like a moron. I've seen many really good deals and if I'm not interested or already have the game, I always leave them to someone actually interested and doesn't have it yet (hopefully the buyer ended up like that). Parts break, ports are made, interest dies, accidents can befall your physical collection, etc. If you're not enjoying the games (sealed game collecting is particularly dumb IMO), then you're not taking advantage of the main value they hold.

Honestly, if you're smart and do your research, you can easily make good stock picks; my average gains is 10% in 2 months just picking a few choice stocks on Scottrade every few months (obviously, my retirement fund is far more diversified). I know people who've made $10k in days from a couple thousand in options but that's too much risk for me. Spend a little less time chatting about the value of your collection, study into the various investment vehicles and the specific companies/funds/industries/etc., and you'd be much more set on money. Leave games to players who want to enjoy the games.

[The Expanding Man]

I was having similar thoughts recently, as I have been splashing a bit of cash on some Saturn Shmups.

Thinking longterm, the consoles have a limited life. The CDs themselves degrade. The plastic starts to break down causing things such as the spindle cracking.

PCBs and arcade machines won't last forever. Capacitors need replacing. How are we going to go replacing the IC chips in the future?

I suspect that 20 or so years from now collectors of retro arcade machines, PCBs and gaming consoles will be like people who lovingly restore old tube/valve radios or vintage cars.

This ongoing need for maintenance and difficulty to source parts will stop the value from increasing too much.

I could be wrong. I often am

[Ed Oscuro]

POWER POINT COMMENCE

(Note: forums are shitty and feature-free, so think of it like this: * is major point, -- is a subpoint of that, --- etc. are sub-sub points)

PCBs and survivability
* Eventual repairs unavoidable
-- chronic indigestion also
-- Most failures seem most likely in easily-repaired edge connector wear (dummy connector mitigates?)
--- Second most likely cause of on-pcb failures require relatively simple edge connector work
--- Failures seem most likely in hard-to-obtain-and-service auxiliary equipment
* Careful handling and proper equipment mitigates excessive failures
-- Don't forget to watch the voltages
* Repair skill or deep wallets a must
* Possibilities of modern replacements for parts?
-- MAME

(Picture: A stick man says "This is in Power Points because you aren't supposed to have the answer without trying."

PCBs as a store of value
* Serious "collecting" or simple preservation discourages playing, despite robust construction
-- Some PCBs have parts that will fail within a relatively short span of time regardless of handling
--- this is not universally accepted
-- Think of vintage cars: bragging rights value to be determined mainly by how "original" a PCB remains after repairs
* People paying absurd amounts of money for shit NES cartridges: PCBs to take a bow?
-- As a rule, anything physical can be hoa-er collected, so it is. Pocket lint from famous pockets, anyone?
* Currently PCBs relatively low priced compared to console games
-- only console games have colorful covers and Obi strips
--- ...while arcade games have full kits (and matching serials!)
-- does the relatively technical and consumer-unfriendly nature of PCBs hurt popular takeup?
--- or just result in more dead boards and more value for people who hoard / repair?
* Collection of PCBs generally lower relative to console games
-- active arcade operation and convenience of ports
--- you can strap the parts needed to play arcade games onto a dog
-- MAME introduces games to new generations
--- people want to play Fire Shark with sound
* SKYROCKET prices driven by "fame" (relative on the 'net) or supply
-- Original supply low
--- little chance of duplication and bootlegs relatively easily spotted

(Picture: A collector is decapitated by sliding silicon after improper storage of PCB in "ROOM OF DOOM")

Potential disruptions of the market
* The "DreamTR theorem:" digital copies hurt value
-- I don't understand the relevance? Unlikely to be true, popular recognition creates demand and value
--- everybody go home, MAME means we shouldn't be here
* Bootlegging: a minor problem, often easily spotted
-- little chance of modern reproductions disrupting market
--- repros likely to feed the market in a way acceptable to collectors
---- seriously if there were repros of bubble memory etc. it would make life easier
-- source of spares?
* Fame: What arcades are famous?!
-- On PAL Mega Drive, Zero Wing saw temporary price spike c. ~2000-2002.
-- some guy used to be famous and said you had fifteen minutes of it.
-- Stinking aliens!

(Picture: Captain Waffle feels the need for kill his family.)

People who make the most money
* Possible increased role in future for skilled service providers
-- As a rule service providers currently operate for love of hobby, i.e. barely above cost
--- or they are from Tampa, Florida
* Manufacturers of auxiliary equipment
-- Future small but stable market sufficient to offset low costs of producing obsolete equipment
--- or new high tech equipment that supports video signals etc? Bullet point "RGB" compatibility, as example
* Can you corner the market on a PCB and popularize it after to make a modern "Zero Wing" sensation?
-- tests pending on Top Gunner!
--- The Spinal Breaker Jam: Inadequate reverence in the populace for Captain Waffle.
* You mean like old pinball games? What do you want those fer?

(Presentation closes with stick figure diagram: Man pokes PSP Go collector in eye with PCB)

[neorichieb1971]

For cools,

If your supposed to play 35 PCB's all at once I can see your point. No matter how much of a die hard gamer you are, most games sit on the shelf whilst in your custody. Due to wear and tear, I only change games in my cabs once every 2 months. If I had 35 games it would take an awful lot of time to circulate them. In total, I aim to have about 25 PCB arcade games. I just pick the best of the crop or the ones I like. In my time looking at collections of PCB's, I see people shelving them, not playing them. In fact, I see people now putting consoles in their cabinets due to viletims adapter.. Thats one extra shelved PCB right there.

I believe PCB's and cabinets to have a longer lifespan in the hands of a private owner. Arcades leave them on 16 hours a day without play sometimes. At least in the home these beasts will see the far side of 2020.

[Skykid]

For cools,

I only change games in my cabs once every 2 months.

Wow, this weekend I swapped between Final Fight, Super Turbo, The Newzealand Story, World Rally and Deathsmiles. I only have one candy cab though (and don't plan on ever having another).

[sven666]

massive rant

yikes dude, many voices screaming in your head huh?

[Ed Oscuro]

It's not a rant, it's a Power Point presentation (in text); why are you screaming?

[cools]

I did just write a big ole rant about collecting/investing/hoarding/handling but it was far too rambling and unfocused for public consumption. There's a whole bunch of stuff you've said that raises questions but since I don't know you I'll remain silent.

Instead, I'll be more pointed at what you've said - you want ammunition to fire at your girl.

Is £4000 that much of a big deal in the grand scheme of your life? You say you want to own these for 10 years or more - that's £400 a year. You can easily spend that much on console games or other forms of entertainment, but since you already own them the money you would be spending like this could be stuck into a less volatile investment market with a measurable (or guaranteed) return.

How much are you spending on the wedding? Typically the male half of a marriage isn't too bothered with spending large quantities of cash, and the female would like the moon on a stick. This is one day or one week of your life. Memorable, yes, but having a big wedding isn't going to contribute a large amount to both your long term happiness.