Why shmups are such a niche genre

[gs68]

If people are going to describe shmup players who better themseles as "masochists", they may as well apply the same label to:

• Athletes
• Musicians
• Dancers
• Programmers
• Those studying foreign languages

and a shitload of other occupations...

[Udderdude]

If people are going to describe shmup players who better themseles as "masochists", they may as well apply the same label to:

• Athletes
• Musicians
• Dancers
• Programmers
• Those studying foreign languages

and a shitload of other occupations...

Those are more "socially acceptable" hobbies, since they lead to other things in society. Whereas getting really good at a hard game doesn't.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Those are more "socially acceptable" hobbies, since they lead to other things in society. Whereas getting really good at a hard game doesn't.

Its become a fad nowadays to say that those who play hard games are losers, many dont relise that its merly an excuse made up by lazy gamers to justify why they dont like hard games. I dont like X, so whoever does like X is a sad loser waster bastard.

[linko9]

Those are more "socially acceptable" hobbies, since they lead to other things in society. Whereas getting really good at a hard game doesn't.

There goes my plan for employment. I was sure that if I could clear the second loop on Cyvern I'd be a shoe-in for a state department job

I think the reason shmup players get singled out as being "masochists" is because the type of enjoyment you get from improving in a shmup isn't the sort of feeling you can easily convey to someone who hasn't experienced it (as opposed to say, sports; just show a picture of some guy holding a trophy with a bunch of cheering fans, and it's obvious that he's having a good time, and that all his hard work payed off).

Oh, and meatloaf 4 life.

[captpain]

I guess taking pleasure in overcoming a challenge in games with extremely tight, carefully-tuned gameplay is masochism and therefore weird, while playing yet another eye-candy unearned-positive feedback IV drip mainstream game is normal.

I really find games like Gears of War and Call of Duty (single-player) to be a hell of a lot weirder than shmups because they're more like awful action movies than anything else, except that there's some sort of masturbatory fantasy element to them. They try to make the player feel like he or she's in an action movie, and they never seem to stop repeatedly congratulating the player for actions that can be (and often are) performed by a 13-year-old. They're escapist and bizarre.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

i think more casual / mainstream gamers need educating that games not based on story with easy gameplay tacked on are actually worth playing and not geeky or sad in any way. As its all fine and dandy niche gamers saying they dont care what the mainstream think need to consider that while they dont, MS, Nintendo, Sony and the publishers do care what their core users think and wont hesisitate to drop niche titles if they think certain games impact the overall image of their console in a way they dont want.

Image means everything to them, and this is probably the reason arcade ports are getting refused for XBLA nowadays because MS want to change the image of live or of the console as a whole by changing what type of games there are on their system.

[esreveR]

I think emulation killed shmups, to be honest.

I mean...where does the money come from nowadays?

[ColonelFatso]

Meat loafs are awesome.
They'll do anything for love.

But not that.

Oh, for crying out loud.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I think emulation killed shmups, to be honest.

I mean...where does the money come from nowadays?

If this was true, PC would be dead in the water as a commercial games platform by now. You can easily pirate a new game published by, say, Electronic Arts pretty much from day one. Where does the money come from?

[ncp]

I think emulation killed shmups, to be honest.

I mean...where does the money come from nowadays?

If this was true, PC would be dead in the water as a commercial games platform by now. You can easily pirate a new game published by, say, Electronic Arts pretty much from day one. Where does the money come from?

to be fair, you don't have to pay 100 yen every time you play a PC game.

[Obiwanshinobi]

to be fair, you don't have to pay 100 yen every time you play a PC game.

No-one prevents developers of arcade games from selling home ports (or even roms) as downloadable content. If a game of mind-blowing quality, such as World of Goo, sells well enough at budget price, I can't see why Cave (or Atlus etc.) can't release at least their older stuff on Steam of whatever. Espgaluda II on iPhone and forthcoming Guwange on XBLA seem to be steps in right direction. Developers who think their games are too good for this should purchase a boxed copy of WoG for the PC (it's like, two-three beers is pub?) and seek the answer whether it's a shovelware small time one-trick pony of a game, or something far greater. In the arcadey, affordable gaming territory the competition is really fierce.

[Taylor]

Err, the developers don't get the money that is spent by punters in the arcade.

And I'm sure I've heard a few PC developers complaining about piracy.

[TMR]

If people are going to describe shmup players who better themseles as "masochists", they may as well apply the same label to:

• Programmers

i don't have a problem with that statement, i try to write scrolling shooters on 8-bits that don't always want to scroll... that said, i really am a masochist!

[Obiwanshinobi]

Err, the developers don't get the money that is spent by punters in the arcade.

My point was that you can't blame emulation alone for the obscurity of shmups. These days you can emulate and pirate fighting games, DDR and Guitar Hero too. You can pirate pretty much EVERYTHING (including high profile console exclusives) this way or another.

And I'm sure I've heard a few PC developers complaining about piracy.

Aye, even dirt-cheap, excellent games are pirated to hell and back, and, quite frankly, Blizzard is about the last major PC exclusive developer on Earth. Still, small time PC developers collaborate with Steam and XBLA rather than region lock their games or print but 200 copies with faithfull DC owners in mind.

[linko9]

My point was that you can't blame emulation alone for the obscurity of shmups. These days you can emulate and pirate fighting games, DDR and Guitar Hero too. You can pirate pretty much EVERYTHING (including high profile console exclusives) this way or another.

In fact, shmups are one of the genres most immune to piracy; arcade releases aren't mame'd for years and years, of course there are bootleg boards, but am I wrong in saying that this is much less widespread than pc and console game piracy? As for shmups released outside of the arcade, it's not like you've got swarms of people pirating the latest CAVE releases; it seems like shmup fans are much more likely to actually buy games as opposed to say, RPG fans (just sayin').

[DEL]

Obiwanshinobi wrote;

My point was that you can't blame emulation alone for the obscurity of shmups.

In fact I don't blame emulation AT ALL for the obscurity of shoot'em ups. Quite the esreveR, emulation is responsible for newcomers finding the genre.

[Vectorman0]

Without reading through the rest of the thread, here's what came to my mind when I saw this topic title:

The genre evolved. The average gamer didn't, and shifted towards console games.

[Davey]

The genre evolved. The average gamer didn't, and shifted towards console games.

The general argument is the reverse of this, actually. Read the thread. (or better yet, don't)

[grafe]

For me they seemed rather casual, pretty ignorant but I thought with a few hours in one I'd be able to beat it pretty easily, now that I've actually been playing them it's two months later and I'm still barely into stage 5 of espgaluda which is supposed to be one of the easiest ones but it's not easy for me! also I've only been to stage 5 in DDP once

[ShmupSamurai]

http://z2-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/ ... 94053_.jpg

Mother of shmupping gods.....What in the name of all that is holy and exploding is THAT??

on the otherrrrrrr hand.....if it involves fun, bullets, explosions, and bosses, I'm willing to nab it from the bargin bin.

I wished casual gamers wouldn't shy away from this genre so much.Don't review what u hardly ever play...

[ST Dragon]

Today is the age of nostalgia.

I'll double on that!

[cul]

If people are going to describe shmup players who better themseles as "masochists", they may as well apply the same label to:

• Athletes
• Musicians
• Dancers
• Programmers
• Those studying foreign languages

and a shitload of other occupations...

Implying playing a video game can equal to music composing, or training years to dance, or to learn anything remotely useful or creative. What a stupid statement.

Also today, playing video game is broadly "socially accepted" if your social circle is mainly under the age of 30, the only thing is, that no one is going to care that you are in the top 10 score board of some obscure japanese game. And maybe that's what bothers you.

In short, get over it, video games are just games.

[clp]

If people are going to describe shmup players who better themseles as "masochists", they may as well apply the same label to:

• Athletes
• Musicians
• Dancers
• Programmers
• Those studying foreign languages

and a shitload of other occupations...

Implying playing a video game can equal to music composing, or training years to dance, or to learn anything remotely useful or creative. What a stupid statement.

Also today, playing video game is broadly "socially accepted" if your social circle is mainly under the age of 30, the only thing is, that no one is going to care that you are in the top 10 score board of some obscure japanese game. And maybe that's what bothers you.

In short, get over it, video games are just games.

So world class chess players should get over it after all its just a game .

[cul]

Chess playing relates on something totally different than pure reflex and learning colored pixels patterns. But yes, comparing it to any creative activity would still be silly, it's just a game, playing it at a "master" level doesn't produce anything at all: why? Because it's, just a game.

[gs68]

My point is, saying that someone who is mastering a game is a masochist runs counter to the point of challenging oneself and mastering a difficult task.

The pleasure in challenging games comes from overcoming that one boss or a very hard stage. This is different from masochism, where the pleasure lies in getting your ass kicked repeatedly. If you're a masochist, there's no point in making, say, Queen Larsa your bitch, because then the pain and suffering will be gone.

[cul]

I'm more of a sadist when it comes to smut anyway.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Chess playing relates on something totally different than pure reflex and learning colored pixels patterns. But yes, comparing it to any creative activity would still be silly, it's just a game, playing it at a "master" level doesn't produce anything at all: why? Because it's, just a game.

Without getting into the whole are games more then games / art debate ive allways thought of shmups as something simler to playing an instrument. And i can play the guitar (to some degree anyway) so i know what playing an instrument is like.

I think of one shmup the same as a piece of music, with a basic shmup with not allot to master made by a guy in his bedroom to be the musical equal to twinkle twinkle little star and Treasures RSG to be a great piece of music ie Pink Floyds Dirty Women.

Also a gamer whos new to shmups can play RSG or a Cave game until he gets very good at it but this may take along time before his hard work comes off and he can enjoy the game to its full extent (ie his learnt the game inside and out and is very comftable playing it) Or he can play a simpler (but still allot of fun) doujin shmup like Blue Wish Resurrection. Obvisly he wont need anywhere near the time as a hard arcade shmup before he learns the game mechanics and memorises the stages. So hell be playing a game that while fun not as great as DDP but gives more short term satisafaction. Also as time goes on and the shmup player plays more and more shmups hes skills will increase and hell beable to complete shmups faster then he could as a noob.

The same can also be applied with playing an guitar. A new player could learn to play a really difficult to play song but will take him a very long time to do so or he could learn an easier song the equivalent of a doujin shmup which wont take as long to master giving short term satisfaction. Also as the person plays more songs and pratices regulary hell grows as a guitar player making mastering that difficult song so much easier.

[linko9]

Yeah, I've always found that to be a pretty good analogy myself.

[Exarion]

Sin and Punishment 2 reviews are out, and they look good. Some of them even have a whole paragraph about scoring. It also looks to be less memorization-heavy than treasure's previous releases. From what I've heard and seen so far, the game is a 3D shmup (I know, borderliner, but i'm fine with starfox being called a shmup) scrolling into the screen. Free aiming, and free motion, and tons of enemies. Killing enemies will increase your multiplier, getting hit decreases it. You also have a melee attack which can reflect bullets (looks like it might be spammable, which is bad) and a quick dodge ability (may cause invincibility, also looks to be spammable). Shooting down whole formations of enemies, or killing enemies by reflecting their own bullets gives bonus points (reflecting bullets fired by another enemy does not). The timing on formations looks to be very small, so I think this will require memorization, but reflecting looks like it can be done by reflex. You are given a lifebar, and gain health when you kill a boss. Game over at one death, continue resets you to checkpoint. It also has some bullet hell segments, which do not work at all in 3D. I think your supposed to reflect bullets here, considering you look to have a full-model hitbox. I'd say it will probably hurt the sales of DeathSmiles, which may or may not be a good thing.

[JoshF]

Sin and Punishment isn't a shmump it's a f'wulp.