DoDonPachi high score verification 2010

[PROMETHEUS]

PROMETHEUS, I've agreed with you up to think point but I actually do agree that point is ridiculous. Why should players suffer through an inferior version just to play for score instead of playing on the real thing? And I bet if you put the emulated version side by side with the real deal, you'll notice slight speed differences in some areas. And if you record the audio frequency, I bet it won't be the same either.

Speed differences : never noticed a difference on PCB. DDP has random speed in many parts too so it's difficult to measure. And it's so minor you shouldn't care. Audio frequency... absolutely zero concern when you play your scoring runs.

If you demand only emulated scores, it's like hosting an art contest for drawings and demanding that artists submit their drawings only through email instead of actually sending the actual drawing in. You're playing on a illegitimate version and really ought to be thankful that the reverse isn't true: that players don't demand that you play on the actual board. Would Arcadia accept your submission even with a recording and witnesses? I highly doubt it; there are too many possible factors that could possibly affect a world record score that so at that level, you can't take emulation seriously.

Well don't agree with the first sentence because the difference is so incredibly minor (almost nill, and MAME actually improves on the PCB), however you're right that Arcadia probably wouldn't accept a MAME submission. But that's not because its illegitimate or anything, it's because they are VERY strict on verification, like any serious competitive ranking has to be, so in addition to make totally sure each score has no way to be faked, for maximum security you'll require players to play in the same conditions. If they haven't, split the boards. Which is why they don't accept scores made with the ports either, even though they're "legitimate" (they're also way inferior to emulation most of the time).

And the problem there is it's a lot more trouble recording a run outside the PC. So if we're not holding these scores up to the unrealistic highest level of proof, a video of an emulated run or a picture of the entire arcade setup should be enough to expect and ask for.

Yeah but that doesn't work because how can you tell the picture was taken from the PCB game ?

[PROMETHEUS]

PCB Score pictures can be faked with ease. No score can be trusted without video and/or witness.

Non-wolfmame inputs can't be trusted. You can completely or partially play the game frame by frame without the replay looking suspicious at all.

Videos can be forged. Witnesses can be bribed.

Trust noone, suspect everyone.

Thus everyone must use wolfmame to have a clean conscience about their scores.

No, we're talking about the top 5 or so.
And it's all about making sure it's hard to cheat and easy to be legit. Not about mass suspection. Thanks for still doubting.

[moozooh]

I'm curious though: has there been an interview of ISO's playing habits?

Not that I'm aware of — pretty much the only bits of info I have are from various scoreboards and his comments for Touhou replays. The guy really likes Embodiment of Scarlet Devil and Perfect Cherry Blossom; he has played them competitively for 5-6 years each, more than any other arcade game apparently. :o

I also know he's been a guest of a couple live events, too, together with WTN and other shmup veterans, but other than that I don't know a thing about those.

[Ganelon]

Yeah but that doesn't work because how can you tell the picture was taken from the PCB game ?

Well, you can always ask to have a picture of the arcade innards to reveal the PCB but that won't be in the same picture as the score. And a picture of a supergun would function the same. Would that be proof enough?

[PROMETHEUS]

Yeah but that doesn't work because how can you tell the picture was taken from the PCB game ?

Well, you can always ask to have a picture of the arcade innards to reveal the PCB but that won't be in the same picture as the score. And a picture of a supergun would function the same. Would that be proof enough?

It cannot work because a faker would just provide the pictures but could still easily fake the score picture if he has the PCB. Which is something previous cheaters have done here and on the French forum. WONG's photo, JeremyCarrier's savestate... The point of verification is to make it hard and tedious for cheaters to cheat, which is something like video recording or inps achieve, as they are much easier to produce if you really did it than they are to make up if you're faking.

[crithit5000]

The small group of 'OMG YOU NEED PROOF YOU MUST USE WOLFMAME' people that frequent this forum are tiring; and have been for years. You're basically assholes.

I echo this sentiment. Last week, the Cyvern topic I run had a mini-fallout very much like this, as a Brazillian player added a score that Plasmo says beats the current Japanese WR. Only had a MAME screenshot, and that was it. Everyone's screaming for an .inp, and I'm in the middle going "Uhh...".

To be completely honest, I'd like to see a replay from this kid. But I'm just a replay junkie, it's certainly not for validation purposes. Even if he did record your standard WolfMAME .106 input, how am I going to confirm it's 100% real? It's just retarded to rely on this lone standard like it's foolproof, and besides...I'm running a scoreboard on a semi-obscure forum, not an entry for Guinness. As I stated in my thread after accepting the kid's score (oh noes): If your so damn input-hungry, mayhaps MARP or Twin Galaxies are more to your liking?

[crithit5000]

Oh, and I can't wait for next year's version of this topic!

[PROMETHEUS]

The small group of 'OMG YOU NEED PROOF YOU MUST USE WOLFMAME' people that frequent this forum are tiring; and have been for years. You're basically assholes.

I echo this sentiment. Last week, the Cyvern topic I run had a mini-fallout very much like this, as a Brazillian player added a score that Plasmo says beats the current Japanese WR. Only had a MAME screenshot, and that was it. Everyone's screaming for an .inp, and I'm in the middle going "Uhh...".

To be completely honest, I'd like to see a replay from this kid. But I'm just a replay junkie, it's certainly not for validation purposes. Even if he did record your standard WolfMAME .106 input, how am I going to confirm it's 100% real? It's just retarded to rely on this lone standard like it's foolproof, and besides...I'm running a scoreboard on a semi-obscure forum, not an entry for Guinness. As I stated in my thread after accepting the kid's score (oh noes): If your so damn input-hungry, mayhaps MARP or Twin Galaxies are more to your liking?

And simply because you don't care for verification means it's okay to call the others "assholes" ?
No proof is 100% foolproof just like no security system is entirely secure. But some efforts towards security prevents a great deal of abuse. Do we have to repeat this a hundred times in this thread before we stop seeing this type of reply without consistent arguments ?

[dmauro]

Just curious, but do you also require a photo/video of the PCB for people that aren't playing in MAME? Not because someone is likely to modify their PCB, but because you can hook MAME up to a cab easily enough, then take a screen of the cab high score and say it was a PCB to get by the inp requirement.

If you're gonna get paranoid about high scores, it seems like you'd have to do this. :/

[ArrogantBastard]

fuck all y'all guys

im goin over 2 twingalaxies now

peacin' out, sons

[zlk]

If someone makes a replay, frequently you can tell they are cheating by how they play. If they are using a very stupid strategy and making insane dodge after dodge, odds are they are cheating. If you watch a "pro" level player, they do alot of very clever things. They try to control what is happening on screen and they generally try to make things as easy as possible on themselves. Watch NAI or LAOS play DDP then watch the two A-L no miss cheating replays. There is a huge difference in gameplay and tactics.

Watching Prometheus's replays, what he does makes sense. He even has an extremely clever way to deal with the TLB's last attack. It is clear the guy has thought a lot about the game and has come up with some cool tactics. I am glad the guy made replays and shared them with everyone.

[crithit5000]

And simply because you don't care for verification means it's okay to call the others "assholes" ?

Learn to internet; just because I agree with zakk's post and quoted it doesn't mean I explicitly called anyone an asshole.

No proof is 100% foolproof just like no security system is entirely secure. But some efforts towards security prevents a great deal of abuse. Do we have to repeat this a hundred times in this thread before we stop seeing this type of reply without consistent arguments ?

Better question: Do we really have to have this thread/tangent once a year if not more before AHAHAHAHA who the fuck am I kidding? I now declare I care so much about score verification in my threads that all Giga Wing, Cyvern, R-Type Leo, Gradius Galaxies, Gun.Smoke, and GunNac players must travel to my house and confirm their scores live. And bring me tacos and a Slurpee. And yes, if the player plays via emulation we'll record inputs and upload them to here, MARP, TG, TAS, Super-Play, CyberScore, YouTube, Vimeo, YouJizz, RedTube, Fark, and Flickr. After that, victory burritos and hookers. I believe my system trumps yours a thousand fold.

[JoshF]

Keep this thread going for more classic ArrogantBastard quips.

[ArrogantBastard]

hurrrrrr look at you all. sperging about stupid fuckin video games. LOL @ u fags

mabey u guys should start investing in nude artwork and be cool like me

this thread, lmao
peace homos

[PROMETHEUS]

Do we really have to have this thread/tangent once a year if not more before AHAHAHAHA who the fuck am I kidding?

It's not the same discussion every time and I think it's worth discussing. If you don't, don't post in this thread. If you are against verification and have any interesting arguments, post them in a respectful manner. Thank you.

[charlie chong]

mame ddp has a very different feel to me than the pcb to me
not that i'm a high level player but i have 1ccd both versions many times

[Kaiser]

Okay, i'm up for top-10 players (which usually is where players are) to record their replays on MAME, not sure about PCB though. However PCB scores can't be faked unless photoshopped and every photoshop can be detected. I mean look, if you 1cc'd DDP once both loops, you'll be able to do it again so stop whining and make sure you consistently ALL the game then record the replay on MAME but if it's PCB, just take a picture of it, up-close, it's possible to detect your photoshawps. ZLK has a point, cheater replays have no valuable strategies in them and just avoid everything without a hitch or a pixel mistake, while "pro" level replays (I hate to self-praise myself but you should watch my battle bakraid advanced replay, it may have no decent scoring but it has some neat strategy ideas, even on last boss) know what to do but may fail like I did die once at last boss in the bakraid replay. I don't really fucking know how the fuck we will verify the PCB scores. You can't diss people right away if they provide a screen.

[cools]

Okay, i'm up for top-10 players (which usually is where players are) to record their replays on MAME, not sure about PCB though. However PCB scores can't be faked unless photoshopped and every photoshop can be detected. I mean look, if you 1cc'd DDP once both loops, you'll be able to do it again so stop whining and make sure you consistently ALL the game then record the replay on MAME but if it's PCB, just take a picture of it, up-close, it's possible to detect your photoshawps. ZLK has a point, cheater replays have no valuable strategies in them and just avoid everything without a hitch or a pixel mistake, while "pro" level replays (I hate to self-praise myself but you should watch my battle bakraid advanced replay, it may have no decent scoring but it has some neat strategy ideas, even on last boss) know what to do but may fail like I did die once at last boss in the bakraid replay. I don't really fucking know how the fuck we will verify the PCB scores. You can't diss people right away if they provide a screen.

1) Buy PCB
2) Setup MAME in cab
3) Cheat, using MAME
4) Take photo of cheated score

To be fair to Twin Galaxies, their criteria for recording arcade game records is pretty bomb proof.

[Aru-san]

To be fair to Twin Galaxies, their criteria for recording arcade game records is pretty bomb proof.

Not to mention that Twin Galaxies doesn't want you to use the C button for auto-fire (no matter how universally advantageous it is). It's either tap that A button or don't record your run at all.

Normal Screen
C Button Not Use
Game Difficulty: B [Normal]
Extend: 6,000,000 20,000,000
Hero Counts: 3
Continues: Off

[captpain]

hurrrrrr look at you all. sperging about stupid fuckin video games. LOL @ u fags

mabey u guys should start investing in nude artwork and be cool like me

this thread, lmao
peace homos

your Cool Casual Internet is really forced and unfunny

[cools]

To be fair to Twin Galaxies, their criteria for recording arcade game records is pretty bomb proof.

Not to mention that Twin Galaxies doesn't want you to use the C button for auto-fire (no matter how universally advantageous it is). It's either tap that A button or don't record your run at all.

Normal Screen
C Button Not Use
Game Difficulty: B [Normal]
Extend: 6,000,000 20,000,000
Hero Counts: 3
Continues: Off

Game specific criteria is way off base though, I agree

[sikraiken]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

My apologies for my laziness/busyness and lack of care for most. I go in and out of being interested in things and have a difficult time maintaining my focus on any one thing, I work, take classes, have a social life, I'm involved in my community, excuses, etc. My sincerest apologies to those I've formed bonds with over the past decade or so and have let down on promises (once, or many times).

I've never meant to come across that I'm better than anyone, my intent has always been to really play down anything I've ever accomplished and help anyone out that I could along the way. I don't care to rub my scores in people's faces. Looking back, I could have worded and done things differently, but my intent was never to cause drama or bring attention to myself, whether or not people saw it that way is for everyone else to determine. Perception is an amazing thing.

I find completely dismantling these games fairly simple. Execution is the hardest part, but I learn quickly from my mistakes. If you don't believe me, alright. In STGT 2010, don't accept my scores unless I show proof, whatever. Moozooh said some good stuff in his one post.

Smashing Tatsujin Oh in an evening only to sum up his strategy tips for the game with "I chose the blue shot because it's my favorite color" only make you look like a douchebag.

You have to understand my response was intended purely for Mills. Look how he's posted on my videos or in that thread. Not classy, but I think I'm entitled to have some fun. If you want some real answers or better analysis for Tatsujin Oh, send me a PM. Also, I had played Tatsujin Oh for a short amount of time a few years before that weekend when I made the score I posted.

There are limits to this, especially in shmups where memorization is huge and always takes a long time.

Memorization does not always take a long time. Memorization can be huge, but a lot of stuff is repetitive and just needs to be ordered in different ways. You don't have to memorize every little thing. I think this is largely influenced on what type of strategy you use to approach the games. The simplest of differences in approach makes a huge change in the amount of time it will take to get from Point A to Point B. If you make the same stupid mistakes over and over, or do not realize your errors, you're going to run into a larger time investment. This also adds to frustration, which does not help progress. Maybe I see patterns and all the problems I have earlier on than most, I don't know. I also never get nervous while playing anymore. I think that plays a large role in my ability to just practice a bunch of sections and then do a few actual full runs to get the scores I get, instead of playing a lot of full runs to get to where I want to be.

I'm not going to respond to a lot of other things said because it goes back to perception and anything else I've said above, along with the fact that I'm not posting to defend the scores I've made. Believe what you want about them. Later.

[PROMETHEUS]

Yeah right, it's all about perception ;]

You've been blatantly making fun of enough people that you really can't call that kind of excuse. And your long paragraph about memorization doesn't make a lot of sense, what you said here is very basic stuff every scorer knows to do. I practice sections too and I know how much stuff there is to learn in most games before you can perform well. That said, some games are a lot easier and can be beaten and scored in a short amount of time, but that short amount of time is not one day or a few hours ^^ every japanese superplayer will tell you so.

Go on pretending not caring to show proof. No way to tell for sure that you've been cheating around, but that's as close as it gets.

Reminds me of when MrZZZ was banned from all Starcraft leagues for maphacking and he just kept denying and it was terribly hard to make a hundred percent sure he was cheating, but sometimes you realize the player behaves exactly as he has to to avoid proving he's legit, and that's when you know you got a cheater. He was a renowned very good player, but nonetheless a cheater.

[captpain]

It's not unreasonable or off-putting to ask for top scorers to post a simple INP replay, you bunch of fucking weirdos. It'll help new players learn, and my suspicion is that it'll add to the top-level competition. Come on.

[Icarus]

It'll help new players learn, and my suspicion is that it'll add to the top-level competition.

That's one of the reasons why I do it, whenever possible. Besides, my scores aren't world-beating, and I'm not fantastic at a great many games, but if it motivates people to aim to beat me, and helps players learn some new tricks, then I'm all for it.

[PROMETHEUS]

It'll help new players learn, and my suspicion is that it'll add to the top-level competition.

That's one of the reasons why I do it, whenever possible. Besides, my scores aren't world-beating, and I'm not fantastic at a great many games, but if it motivates people to aim to beat me, and helps players learn some new tricks, then I'm all for it.

Yeah me too that's always been one of the reasons I post recordings. Spectating, proving and teaching purposes. Really I do want to see those next spots come closer to my score. I'd even be pleasantly suprised to see someone beat me ! Although it'd definitely make me want to come back and try to beat'em ;] eheh. But that's when it's the most fun !

[Gungriffon Geona]

your Cool Casual Internet is really forced and unfunny

You're just jealous cuz he's the one making sense here.
This thread sucks btw.

[sikraiken]

Yeah right, it's all about perception ;]

You've been blatantly making fun of enough people that you really can't call that kind of excuse. And your long paragraph about memorization doesn't make a lot of sense, what you said here is very basic stuff every scorer knows to do. I practice sections too and I know how much stuff there is to learn in most games before you can perform well. That said, some games are a lot easier and can be beaten and scored in a short amount of time, but that short amount of time is not one day or a few hours ^^ every japanese superplayer will tell you so.

Haha, who am I making fun of? And I'm the one who supposedly likes the drama...

My statement about memorization is saying a bit more than what you're making it out to be. You think everyone realizes these methods? Why do people ask what's the best way to approach games, then? Ah yeah, only if you're Japanese can you be the best... You realize that the resources we have available allow me to make such speedy progress, right? WR videos, save state practice... without them, my progress would be much slower. You know this, I shouldn't have to say this to you. My DDP score didn't happen overnight, anyway. Majority of my time is spent in save state practice, how many people approach things this way? Doing a lot of full runs is a massive waste of time. I think you don't realize that what you see as "common sense" or "common knowledge" is actually not so common. It makes sense, and when you tell people it, they'll say that it makes sense, but they didn't necessarily approach things that way in the first place, or think of that themselves.

Go on pretending not caring to show proof. No way to tell for sure that you've been cheating around, but that's as close as it gets.

Thanks for the permission, I really needed it.

[third_strike]

I am loving this novel, from deep of my heart go on guys please!
Cool!

[PROMETHEUS]

My statement about memorization is saying a bit more than what you're making it out to be. You think everyone realizes these methods?

I know most people don't know or don't want to accept that it's a much superior way of practicing and I know how huge the difference is for having made previous direct comparisons. But you made that paragraph in response to this quote :

There are limits to this, especially in shmups where memorization is huge and always takes a long time.

So you just responded with stuff I already knew. Which means you haven't convinced me at all since you brought no new argument to me. I'm obviously still going to think your 1 day Tastujin achievement was either mockery to other players (hence the "you're making fun of people", although it's far from being the only instance of that), or just a fake achievement (in which case you're also making fun of people since I guess you're probably smarter than that and you could fake them in a more subtle way).

When I saw I had a shot at 1st place I actually wanted BR1, whom I hadn't met at the time, to go after my score and battle our way as high as we could until we reach our limits. I actually practiced purposefully to be able to beat his score when we were meeting in London, thinking it would be a surprise to him and it would motivate him to play again.

I'll be glad to believed you've achieved 530M if you show up with more manners and some proof. I would have loved to have a DDP competitor. Someone to discuss the game with. But my DDP competitor is always avoiding discussion.

Because my DDP competitor is most likely fake.