DoDonPachi high score verification 2010

[PROMETHEUS]

<This discussion was split from Ravid's high score thread -inc.>


Btw on the topic of score validation with replays, I really think that's important. We're seeing a lot of people reaching 100M and more, it's not like I doubt any of them personally but cheaters do exist so I think you should require an inp (should be a wolfmame inp only for now, then lagless mame inp allowed if they do something about the possibility to cheat) for any score over 100M, Ravid. It would also be nice cause we could watch the best players' runs too...

Forgive me for insisting on this but we've seen enough cheaters in the past (on the French forum as well, a cheater was the score leader for years...), and verification is useless without a clear rule so it's better if we go back to how "elfhentaifan" had set it up (inp or video required for top 10). This avoids having to directly point at someone suspicious. Besides, a clever cheater can make himself not appear suspicious at all.

[Pulsewidth]

You can easily convert a cheating MAME replay to a WolfMAME replay. The only way to 100% prove a replay is real is to watch it being recorded in person.

[PROMETHEUS]

You can easily convert a cheating MAME replay to a WolfMAME replay.

How?

[Pulsewidth]

You can easily convert a cheating MAME replay to a WolfMAME replay.

How?

http://forums.marpirc.net/viewtopic.php ... 37a#p44860

Maybe it will need some coding to convert from normal MAME to WolfMAME, but either way cheating is easy. I don't use WolfMAME because it encourages a false sense of security.

[PROMETHEUS]

You can easily convert a cheating MAME replay to a WolfMAME replay.

How?

http://forums.marpirc.net/viewtopic.php ... 37a#p44860

Maybe it will need some coding to convert from normal MAME to WolfMAME, but either way cheating is easy. I don't use WolfMAME because it encourages a false sense of security.

Mmmmh this guy says it doesn't work but seems like it could. Doesn't seem easy to me at all. It's better to have a bit of security instead of none at all, to make it hard for cheaters.

Or as this guy said :

For the benefit of others reading this exchange (I know the original poster won't get it) this argument is just as valid as the argument that one should not lock one's car when one leaves it, because any decent locksmith could unlock it in 30 seconds, or that one shouldn't lock one's front door at night when one goes to bed, because any two guys off the street with a good battering ram could break it down in less than 5 seconds.

Even if there might still be cheaters around there would be a lot less.

[spl]

Good job with this I agree!

As for the inp thing well you know what I think. Even for me, if I were to make a new high score I just couldn't conceive not having a record of it. I think it should be simply necessary. But anyway, the one who keeps the score board makes the rules I guess, and I find them acceptable :p

So you record all the runs you make? Do you reopen the game each time you die/start a new credit and sit through the legal mumbo jumbo? What happens if I get a new high score maybe 5 or 6 credits into the start of the INP? That means whoever watches the INP then has to sit through 5-6 failed games which may be 15-20 minutes each?

Is there a way to record new INP on the fly without having to close the game and reopen??

[PROMETHEUS]

Good job with this I agree!

As for the inp thing well you know what I think. Even for me, if I were to make a new high score I just couldn't conceive not having a record of it. I think it should be simply necessary. But anyway, the one who keeps the score board makes the rules I guess, and I find them acceptable :p

So you record all the runs you make? Do you reopen the game each time you die/start a new credit and sit through the legal mumbo jumbo? What happens if I get a new high score maybe 5 or 6 credits into the start of the INP? That means whoever watches the INP then has to sit through 5-6 failed games which may be 15-20 minutes each?

Is there a way to record new INP on the fly without having to close the game and reopen??

Yes I record every single run, reopening the game every time and sitting through the 15 sec legal text. I made over 500 attempts all recorded this way and it really wasn't that big a deal. It would be much, much worse not having a recording of my best run not only as proof but just because obviously a lot of people including myself would want to see it.

You could play a couple of credits in the same session that's totally okay, it doesn't take long at all to skip the failed runs with F10 + frameskip, plus that recording is good material to turn into a video of the single, successful run if needed, so it does serve the purpose of proof + spectator interest.

[ncp]

It takes a good 30 seconds for DDP to start up actually. 500 runs and you're looking at over 4 hours of wasted time with that. I personally have started over 500 inps since I never do "practice" runs or save states, just full runs over and over.

Thank god the version of mame I use lets you fast-forward even while recording, so I can skip that, otherwise I wouldn't even bother playing, to be honest. If lagless mame doesn't allow for that I won't be using that, either.

[linko9]

Thank god the version of mame I use lets you fast-forward even while recording, so I can skip that, otherwise I wouldn't even bother playing, to be honest.

That seems a bit extreme. Anyway, I just timed it, it's exactly 31 seconds. It's never bothered me much, and I think the payoff of a validated recording of your run outweighs the short wait; that said I don't blame you for using a version that allows you to skip it, and it's not like I think anyone on here would submit a inp that they cheated on. Anyway, I wonder why this was changed from DonPachi? No need to wait in that game, just put in a credit and you're good to go; same with ESPRade which came after it.

[PROMETHEUS]

Anyway, I just timed it, it's exactly 31 seconds. It's never bothered me much, and I think the payoff of a validated recording of your run outweighs the short wait; that said I don't blame you for using a version that allows you to skip it, and it's not like I think anyone on here would submit a inp that they cheated on.

If you put a credit in after the text is fully displayed you can start playing right away instead of waiting another 10 seconds for it to fade away. But yeah like you said :

It's never bothered me much, and I think the payoff of a validated recording of your run outweighs the short wait

and it's not like I think anyone on here would submit a inp that they cheated on.

There have been some big shots of da cheating and some extremely suspicious people that no one really knows, still, if their scores are real or not. All because most people seem to be against score verification on these boards, which is a shame and I won't ever fully understand it. Yeah PCB users should record videos, or play on MAME, MAME users should record inps. At the very least. That's what I did, what MisterMonkeyMan or Icarus did, everyone can and should do the same. If you had hundreds of hours to invest in a STG, then investing a couple hours into figuring out how to record is nothing and should be required. Else your scores can't be trusted, and you are not contributing anything to the community.

[Limbrooke]

There have been some big shots of da cheating and some extremely suspicious people that no one really knows, still, if their scores are real or not. All because most people seem to be against score verification on these boards, which is a shame and I won't ever fully understand it. Yeah PCB users should record videos, or play on MAME, MAME users should record inps. At the very least. That's what I did, what MisterMonkeyMan or Icarus did, everyone can and should do the same. If you had hundreds of hours to invest in a STG, then investing a couple hours into figuring out how to record is nothing and should be required. Else your scores can't be trusted, and you are not contributing anything to the community.

As has been mentioned elsewhere you want a recording no matter what PCB or emulation, WR or not then go to Twin Galaxies. A potential issue is that there is no clear middleman or true "verifier"/verifying party of the replays on shmups.com, pardon other players/competitors. Just as you've said, if you've invested hundreds of hours into a game, it's your investment. Your time, your effort, and indirectly as a result of effort and time spent your money too. It's not public domain, whether or not the game is available in MAME or as a physical PCB that you may or may not own. Irregardless if it might take someone else hundreds and hundreds of hours to perhaps duplicate or borrow techniques from your replay, they can still copy with the time and effort invested.

I think the call for legitimacy is valid but unless there is a seperate strictly verifying only 3rd party, only then would more people be satisfied. As for calling for all replays over a certain score to be recorded is bogus. I believe if substantial proof to experience and play-time (and progress more or less) are shown a replay isn't necessary. While there apparently have been a number of cheaters in DoDonPachi I don't think this goes across the entire spectrum. As a result, it's a disappointment to see such a cloud of doubt encompassing 'good' score submissions since there are many who cannot record replays. To each their own but if you want to record a run that's your own agenda, it shouldn't be the agenda of the HS maintainer. Integrity is important but so are respect and faith. I've only recorded a couple runs, for no reason other than to share information otherwise 90%+ of my submissions are not recorded. Does this mean I fall under the category of my scores can't be trusted, and you are not contributing anything to the community?

In closing I would ask if people question the 71mil DonPachi WR, and if they do on what grounds? Is there a public replay? If there is a replay who saw it? If not, who can verify such a score was done legitimately. I've never seen the replay and I don't ever expect to (much like many others) but I have faith it's legitimate, regardless of who scored it. I don't know anything regarding the record keeping from Gamest and Arcadia but immediately I like the premise of a 3rd party verification group that was obviously in place with both publications.

[ncp]

Thank god the version of mame I use lets you fast-forward even while recording, so I can skip that, otherwise I wouldn't even bother playing, to be honest.

That seems a bit extreme. Anyway, I just timed it, it's exactly 31 seconds. It's never bothered me much, and I think the payoff of a validated recording of your run outweighs the short wait; that said I don't blame you for using a version that allows you to skip it, and it's not like I think anyone on here would submit a inp that they cheated on. Anyway, I wonder why this was changed from DonPachi? No need to wait in that game, just put in a credit and you're good to go; same with ESPRade which came after it.

Haha, I just noticed I said "wouldn't even bother playing" when I meant recording. If the thread required a wolfmame .99 inp, I would not be recording. I would just post a screenshot and if people don't believe it, that's their problem. Having fun is much more important than proving myself to the 50 other people in my entire country that actually play the game, and waiting 30 seconds to restart EVERY TIME you make a minor mistake on the first couple stages is NOT fun at all.

I also never used the final summon in Final Fantasy 7.

[PROMETHEUS]

Well WR scores have been witnessed so there's no doubting them.

I agree that you shouldn't be forced to submit videos for all to see if you want to keep your techniques "secret" though.

Also I'm not saying we should throw a glance of suspicion to anyone who submits a score, only that it should be a default (to require inps for high scores) because you just don't know people and they might cheat, no matter how well you think you know them. Like, because of the score I got in Dodonpachi, I could easily make a fake screenshot of a big score in Dodonpachi Dai Ou Jou and dig myself a #1 spot there in its high score board, and people would trust me. I'm too honest to do such a thing but other people aren't and may use their previous reputation. Or just build a fake one. And those people should be dealt with, that's all I'm saying really ! It's not like it takes a lot of work and it's a really really great thing to have a recording of your best run even if it's just for yourself. (+as a proof)

[nii-san]

If someone make a great score , why don´t up the inp to MARP or MAMESCORE, for exemple?
I hope , my next score, 100 millions or more.



Regards

[=SNC=]

There have been some big shots of da cheating and some extremely suspicious people that no one really knows, still, if their scores are real or not. All because most people seem to be against score verification on these boards, which is a shame and I won't ever fully understand it. Yeah PCB users should record videos, or play on MAME, MAME users should record inps. At the very least. That's what I did, what MisterMonkeyMan or Icarus did, everyone can and should do the same. If you had hundreds of hours to invest in a STG, then investing a couple hours into figuring out how to record is nothing and should be required. Else your scores can't be trusted, and you are not contributing anything to the community.

Can I vote you for president?

[ncp]

I could easily make a fake screenshot of a big score in Dodonpachi Dai Ou Jou and dig myself a #1 spot there in its high score board, and people would trust me. I'm too honest to do such a thing but other people aren't and may use their previous reputation. Or just build a fake one. And those people should be dealt with, that's all I'm saying really !

To be honest... who cares? It's not like they're getting anything out of this. Except maybe video-game-respect from people they don't even know. Perhaps other people posting fake scores bothers you a lot more than it does me, but I say this: If cheaters want to post a fake score, the only person they're hurting is themselves. When people post a very high score, I tend to believe it regardless of proof. If I later found out that the score was fake, what does it even matter to me? I didn't give this guy money for his high score or something. In fact, his lying didn't affect me in any way. On the other hand, the poster of the fake score has to live with knowing how pathetic they are. Unless you have a legit reason to believe a score is fake, just have a little faith in your fellow shmup players, man!

I will say this though, if you post a good score without "proof", some people are bound to not believe it. If you have a problem with that, by all means post videos, but I don't feel it should be required.

Now, if this were a subject for which people actually gain considerable fame, or they actually gained something out of posting a high score, I'd agree with you. But it's really just a niche video game forum. World Records should be verified, yes, but none of us are posting world record scores. Third_strike is coming close over in the Homura thread though, lol.

[=SNC=]

To be honest... who cares? It's not like they're getting anything out of this. Except maybe video-game-respect from people they don't even know. Perhaps other people posting fake scores bothers you a lot more than it does me, but I say this: If cheaters want to post a fake score, the only person they're hurting is themselves. When people post a very high score, I tend to believe it regardless of proof. If I later found out that the score was fake, what does it even matter to me? I didn't give this guy money for his high score or something. In fact, his lying didn't affect me in any way. On the other hand, the poster of the fake score has to live with knowing how pathetic they are. Unless you have a legit reason to believe a score is fake, just have a little faith in your fellow shmup players, man!

I will say this though, if you post a good score without "proof", some people are bound to not believe it. If you have a problem with that, by all means post videos, but I don't feel it should be required.

Now, if this were a subject for which people actually gain considerable fame, or they actually gained something out of posting a high score, I'd agree with you. But it's really just a niche video game forum. World Records should be verified, yes, but none of us are posting world record scores. Third_strike is coming close over in the Homura thread though, lol.

I believe we should open a topic about this, we can't keep on going OT on this dodonpachi hs thread.

Well actually there is at least one guy who posted a world record with just a proofpic from mame (lolz).

I'm sorry Ncp but from my point of view your reasoning is flawed and here I explain why: shmups are fun to play (and I believe everyone on this forum think so) but they are even more fun when played for score competing with your friends, your forummates, sharing strategies and so on for the sake of getting better. I believe we could make a parallelism with beat 'em ups: they are fun to play in solo but the real deal is 1v1; how would you feel if the other guy on, for example , ggpo is cheating you using macro or something else to get a unfair edge over you? You would not only feel bad but you would also lose the fun of the game. The same apply to shmups: what's the point of joining a forum, submitting scores if the other people are cheating? There is no reason, I'll keep playing shmups alone, less fun, but not cheaters-losers.

I'm not encouraging a nazi-like attitude towards scores submitting, I'm just saying that perhaps we should require some kind of basic score verification for, I don't know, the top 5 scores (especially in the most heated-up score charts^^), and I don't believe neither I nor Prometheus are asking for something so "enormous/exceptional", just a well done photo if you are playing on a Cab with PCB or a wolf .inp if you are playing mame. It's just something that is going to take a little time but it's going to contribute hugely to the well being of the shmups community and it's going to drammatically decrease any possibile drama.

[Aru-san]

Now that I think about it, what about games that don't offer the ability to record replays (particularly in PC shmups with no replay system)?

Does this mean that I have to set up my screen recorder every time I play the game? What about games that don't rescale (like most Game Maker games)? Does that mean that I have to endure playing in windowed mode where I could more likely than not make mistakes because I wasn't precise enough?

Well, I guess all of these scores are fake, then.

[RGC]

.

[LtC]

Might as well make an own HS thread for us cheaters then. No way I'm going back to playing wolfmame.99 as long as it has the extra frame of input lag. I don't really mind waiting the intro screen but of course I'd prefer if I was able to skip it. The thing about not skipping it is that sometimes after X amount of failed runs it ends up as "fuck it, I just want to enjoy playing the game instead of staring the 20 second intro for 10 times every 5 minutes." Yes, I do sometimes die that often in st1 :(

ddp - now serious business once again

[ncp]

just a well done photo if you are playing on a Cab with PCB or a wolf .inp if you are playing mame. It's just something that is going to take a little time but it's going to contribute hugely to the well being of the shmups community and it's going to drammatically decrease any possibile drama.

Like I said, I would not even consider recording if I had to use wolfmame. I use a version of mame that allows me to use fast-forward even while recording (I also use it between levels when I'm impatient, and the ending between loops). I assume it would probably allow me to mess with the game speed or something in order to cheat (I'm not entirely sure of the possibilities tbh). I will readily admit this, I probably could have cheated. (edit: Maybe you can cheat with wolfmame too? I though I read a post earlier about that but I can't find it now). If that's the case Prometheus could have cheated too. He didn't. I didn't, either. I have no way to prove to you that I didn't cheat though, despite my posting an .inp, you'll just have to trust me, sorry!

I am not a consistent player. I fuck up probably HALF of my attempts on the FIRST STAGE boss, due to the way it moves from side to side, making it difficult to point-blank the adds without damaging the health bar (which wastes potential boss hit). That's not even counting the occasional mess-up of chaining (since I take this silly route in order to get 10k stars from each of the circular ships), or fuckups on stages 2 and 3. 30 seconds of waiting EVERY botched run. If something requires patience, I can be patient, but if there is a way to avoid hours of accumulated waiting, you bet your ass I'm going to use it, because it's more important to me to play and have fun than to have a marginally more legit .inp file.

Yeah, if someone cheats against me in a fighting game, it sucks. We both lose. He doesn't get the satisfaction of winning, and neither do I. In a fighting game, though, someone else's cheating will directly impact my ability to play. In Dodonpachi, if Prometheus or LTC or BR1 had cheated, I'd still have the same score I have now. I'd be higher up on the table, yeah, but I'd be just as satisfied with the score. That, I think, is the main difference. I guess it comes down to how seriously you take score competition, though.

I've been playing Futari lately anyway. XBL Leaderboards are nice for this sort of thing.

Besides, who doesn't love a little internet drama from time to time...

[Icarus]

I'm surprised the forum MAMErs aren't getting into the habit of recording inputs every run. The benefits far outweigh the half-minute wait at the beginning, and recording inputs is easy. I record for every game I play, not just in MAME but on console and arcade, as it is a habit I've had for over a decade, and because I use the material produced as practice data and guide material.

As for the topic of verification, when I ran a few boards, I wasn't strict on it, but did try to encourage players to use it whenever possible (such as games that were in MAME). At the end of the day, it is up to the board maintainer to decide whether they want to enforce a screenshot/input submission rule to ensure fair play at the top of the table.

If you had hundreds of hours to invest in a STG, then investing a couple hours into figuring out how to record is nothing and should be required. Else your scores can't be trusted, and you are not contributing anything to the community.

QFT.

[RGC]

.

[EPS21]

If someone is trying to compete against PROMETHEUS' high score, and then surpass it, obviously some proof is in order for the #1 spot.

But so far no one's even coming close, so what does it even matter? Posting a screenshot from a camera (MAME/PCB or however you played it) should be good enough in that case.

And also why so much loldrama for just this game?

[ncp]

The benefits far outweigh the half-minute wait at the beginning

Not for me. Let's look at this mathematically. This is kind of an extreme situation since my average Dodonpachi run is PAINFULLY SHORT, but here we go:

I record each attempt. For my Dodonpachi file on mame I have roughly 2000 "played" and 200 hours "time" (for the record, I'm fairly certain that fast-forwarding/pausing doesn't fast-forward/stop the timer, it's based on actual time with the game open). That comes out to 6 minutes per attempt. The actual number is even a bit lower since I have a bit more than 2000 attempts and a bit under 200 hours, but I'll round, and 6 minutes is nice and easy to work with (10 per hour).

2000 attempts at 30 seconds a piece is 1000 minutes, or 16 2/3 hours. At 6 minutes per average run, that is 166-ish more runs because I was able to skip the good ole PROSECUTEDT TO THE FULL EXTENT OF THE JAM each time. I think 160 more practice runs probably helped increase my score considerably. Theoretically my score would probably not be as high if I were using an "anti-cheat" mame.

I, too, record all my mame time, but as I use a version that allows fast-forward/pause, I have to throw in with the anti-verification side here, which is why I'm actually writing these posts, because I know people like Prometheus will only truly trust a wolfmame inp, so I might as well have not posted an inp at all. I'd be happy to post a "decent" (90m+, because I can do that with relatively few attempts) wolfmame inp to prove I can, if Ravid asked me to, but that HIGH SCORE run only comes once, and I refuse to use wolfmame for every attempt, especially considering most (all but one, actually!) attempts end up getting trashed anyway.

[Dragoforce]

If someone is trying to compete against PROMETHEUS' high score, and then surpass it, obviously some proof is in order for the #1 spot.

But so far no one's even coming close

Funny you should say that: http://cowboy.ikaruga.co.uk/bbs/viewtop ... 76&start=0

Dodonpachi - sikraiken - 530,901,350 - ALL - A-L - Max 841

I love watching replays and it defintly helps to improve my gameplay, but I'm too lazy to do any efforts on my own right now. While I respect both immensely as shmup players I regard PROMETHEUS as the greatest Dodonpachi player in the west because of his replays and dedication to the game. There is no doubt in my mind that Sikraikens score is genuine, but in the case of Dodonpachi PROMETHEUS has contributed a lot more to the community than Sikraiken.

[PROMETHEUS]

To be honest... who cares? It's not like they're getting anything out of this. Except maybe video-game-respect from people they don't even know. Perhaps other people posting fake scores bothers you a lot more than it does me, but I say this: If cheaters want to post a fake score, the only person they're hurting is themselves. When people post a very high score, I tend to believe it regardless of proof. If I later found out that the score was fake, what does it even matter to me? I didn't give this guy money for his high score or something. In fact, his lying didn't affect me in any way. On the other hand, the poster of the fake score has to live with knowing how pathetic they are. Unless you have a legit reason to believe a score is fake, just have a little faith in your fellow shmup players, man!

Look, this is what I think the purpose of these high score boards is :

A) Provide a way for people to get an idea of the international level (how many good scores, which are the best scores, countries, ships, etc...).
B) Provide a way for people to show their results to other players and get recognition for their efforts.

and you could add :
C) Providing recordings of the best runs for all to see,
which would be a huge addition. It's partly there, could be a little better though because most other high score threads don't have that.

Both of these purposes are hurt by cheating. Cheaters introducing fake scores tend to make a wrong idea of the achievements attained by the community. That's bad. Secondly, they "steal" recognition from the legit players.

Perhaps some of you may think "well who cares about recognition you're not playing for recognition are you ?". Well, when you've invested so much time and efforts into a difficult game like an STG can be, and you got competitive at it, recognition is a huge factor. It helped me A LOT to keep going, and it's such a nice reward. Yes, you still always play for the fun of the game, and for your own reasons, because you really want to feel that you have achieved a goal that you set for yourself that takes skill and dedication. But recognition is huge man. People encouraging you and applauding you is a really great thing that helps you keep fighting and feel a better taste of victory. I'm not gonna make a huge paragraph about it, it's just SO important, every competitive player will tell you the same, save few exceptions (works the same in life with work or anything else).

Now, if this were a subject for which people actually gain considerable fame, or they actually gained something out of posting a high score, I'd agree with you. But it's really just a niche video game forum. World Records should be verified, yes, but none of us are posting world record scores. Third_strike is coming close over in the Homura thread though, lol.

This is where I think you have a point, but I feel there is enough people caring for community achieved scores and enough dedicated players to justify a little more solid system, all it takes is a little effort on the part of the best scoring guys and scoring board holders. The benefit is huge.

[PROMETHEUS]

If someone is trying to compete against PROMETHEUS' high score, and then surpass it, obviously some proof is in order for the #1 spot.

But so far no one's even coming close

Funny you should say that: http://cowboy.ikaruga.co.uk/bbs/viewtop ... 76&start=0

Dodonpachi - sikraiken - 530,901,350 - ALL - A-L - Max 841

I love watching replays and it defintly helps to improve my gameplay, but I'm too lazy to do any efforts on my own right now. While I respect both immensely as shmup players I regard PROMETHEUS as the greatest Dodonpachi player in the west because of his replays and dedication to the game. There is no doubt in my mind that Sikraikens score is genuine, but in the case of Dodonpachi PROMETHEUS has contributed a lot more to the community than Sikraiken.

Indeed, the case of Sikraiken is one that inspires me to call for more verification. I know some people trust him, but on my part I was always interested to see if this score was real or not cause hey, I wondered if I was the 1st occidental player or not right ? Actually I had set the goal for myself to beat his score, on my sessions where I ended up scoring 505M, but never achieved that. Oh well.

But before I did my runs I tried contacting this guy and ask him for some advice for 1-6 chaining which he supposedly was able to do but for which there is no video online with A-L. It was also a way to check he was for real. He answered "yeah sure I'll make you a video just leave me a week cause I have some work" or something. Then nothing for 2 weeks, and he said "I haven't forgotten about you just wait a little I have a lot of work" blabla.

Then like a month later when I was about ready to start recording runs as I judged myself prepared enough I messaged him again and said "hey so can you make me that video soon ? I'm about ready and it would totally help me". No answer, and he disappears from the forums for a couple months from that day. Sent him another message like "?" wondering if he had seen the previous one, and he didn't open it either. Then he comes back on the forums but still pretends he hasn't seen my messages (they still haven't been read, obviously on purpose).

I'm not entirely sure what to think, but man is this guy suspicious. It's like this STGT tourney where he said he would release his vids at the end of the tournament because we were saying he seemed suspicious, then he never did it in the end did he ? I understand suspicion and accusations suck but this is definitely a suspicious individual and you gotta deal with that for the reasons I stated above. It's not like we're doubting because we're jealous or something, I admire Icarus or MisterMonkeyMan's scores because hey they're genuine and they're great, and I would nonetheless if they were playing the same games as I do. But this guy here ? He's totally fucking with us. And it's guys like him and a few others that further motivate me to ask for a little score verification.

At this point I still don't know but I'm like 75% thinking he faked that DDP score, 25% thinking maybe not. 100% thinking he's being bad manner, showing off but not willing to provide any sort of proof even when asked.

I know you disagree with me on this Icarus, I guess you have different reasons to trust him. But I don't, I know how some people can fuck around in games online as I'm part of a different, much larger community where crazy bullshit such as this do happen.

[captpain]

You're all a bunch of dirty cheaters.

[PROMETHEUS]

You're all a bunch of dirty cheaters.

That really isn't what I mean, does it feel that way ?

I trust most or all of the scores on this DDP board to be real, I just know sometimes there's the odd cheater and he should really be eliminated !