Superplay capture solutions

[akumajo]

more questions about VP30, is it possible to :

1) HDMI inputs -> RGBHV output ?

2) Fudoh, you talked about a VGA to RCA componant cable + 3x bnc to RCA adapters to connect XRGB-3 to VP30, can it works with a VGA to BNC cable too ?


3) You can output to RGBHV or HDMI, not both right ?

Thanks

[Fudoh]

HDMI inputs -> RGBHV output ?

From a 360, yes, from a PS3, no. In other words: yes, but only if the signal is unprotected (without HDCP).

can it works with a VGA to BNC cable too ?

that's the cable I use to connect my XRGB-3 to my VP50Pro, so yes. (But the statement above (VGA to BNC plus BNC) refered to something else I think, possibly on connectiong your VP30 via component to your HDPVR?).

You can output to RGBHV or HDMI, not both right ?

yes.

[akumajo]

that's the cable I use to connect my XRGB-3 to my VP50Pro, so yes. (But the statement above (VGA to BNC plus BNC) refered to something else I think, possibly on connectiong your VP30 via component to your HDPVR?).

yeah you are right, and i completely forgot about HDCP

my new setup will be (if no mistake !) :

xrgb-3 [vga output] (vga to bnc cable)-> [rgbhv input] vp30 [rgbhv output] (bnc to component or component to component + bnc/rca adapters) -> hdpvr
xselect-d4 [d-terminal output] (d-terminal to componant rca) -> [componant input] vp30 [rgbhv output] (bnc to component or component to component + bnc/rca adapters)-> hdpvr

bnc to component, works for rgbhv output too?


xselect-d4 will be used as a componant/d4 switch and for dreamcast vga

Do you use your VP50 to upscale XRGB-3 ? exemple XRGB-3@B1 upscaled to 720P.

[Fudoh]

bnc to component, works for rgbhv output too?

as long as the signal is component, yes. For RGBHV you need 5 wires.

Do you use your VP50 to upscale XRGB-3 ? exemple XRGB-3@B1 upscaled to 720P.

I used the 50pro to upscale the XRGB(B0) to 1080p (for capture) for a videoprocessor comparison. Sometimes I use the 50pro tp upscale the XRGB(B1) for the added aspect ratio options. This way I can eliminate the underscan borders of PS2 games or correct the aspect ratio of PS1 games... It's just very versatile. On the other hand I like the upscaling of my TV better, so I try not to use the 50pro when it's not neccessary.

You'll like the VP30 very much. The VP30 handles RGBs just fine, so you could try to get a Scart to 4x RCA adapter so you can also input 240p/480i RGB directly into the VP30. I don't bother since the transcoding of 240/480i signals through the XSElect is fine as well, but it would offer you more inputs if you got many systems. You might like the 240p processing in Gamemode 1 and remember that the VP30 has fantastic deinterlacing for 480i material. Way better than the XRGB. Just remember to use Gamemode 2 for 480i material, not Gamemode 1.

[Ed Oscuro]

One of the things keeping me from using the Sweetspot is concern about lag. How is it?

Why would you want to play on the PC screen ? As you suggest, it makes much more sense to use a 1:2 splitter behind your source, play on your TV (or 2nd monitor input) as you always do and let the PC does it's stuff.

The sweetspot itself is practically lagfree. Any lag you see is introduced by the viewing/recording application of your choice along with it's deinterlacing/scaling/postprocessing filters.

I'm kind of behind the times with this quote, but yeah, I wasn't suggesting that anybody try to play with the output from a monitor showing the Sweetspot's capture stream, that is bad and banned.

I assume my plan was to use the Sweetspot's stream as a "second monitor" which could be of use e.g. to a game reviewer who wants a reaction shot in front of the actual footage in near-realtime, but where being less than three frames out of sync was not critical. Being able to use the XRGB-2 is a big boon not only because of the ability to use cheap CRT monitors for playing but also for capture by say a video DSLR where scan flicker might come into play without an LCD monitor (I haven't done any testing of this yet though). Definitely a very unusual sort of setup I have in mind. I'm both a bit constrained and helped, I suppose, by this unusual combination of XRGB-2 and Sweetspot hardware. I think what I obviously need is a splitter on the RGB so it goes something like:

Source RGB (say supergun; console capture is much easier than all this!) -> RGB splitter
RGB splitter -> to Sweetspot and to XRGB-2 (and from thence to VGA monitors) or (in another person's setup) to a PVM (but that's not an option for me)

I think what I need to do is use a VGA splitter to get that second VGA monitor feed: one CRT (playing monitor), one LCD. No problem, just a bit spendy.
It's that splitter further up the chain (immediately after the RGB source) that has me worried, since I dunno if anybody makes 'em except maybe as custom. I sure don't have the tools for it.

I imagine I would need something like this: Japanese RGB "SCART-style" female to male Japanese RGB on one lead, and then on the other lead eventually to the inputs for the Sweetspot (probably a converter plug). (I suppose it could also start from a DIN-style male Japanese RGB plug, as that's my connection to the supergun, but that isn't a standard like the SCART-style RGB.)

[Ed Oscuro]

Quick bump: Got this advise from Arasoi which makes more sense:

"Your Supergun has JSCART out, so..do a no solder repin on one of the male SCART-6 male RCA adapters I found cheap on the bay and get a cheap scart coupler. Plug the rca into the 985U input. On one output just run RCA cables into sweetspot for RGB/sync. On another output, repin another of the SCART adapters for JSCART and run RCA cables from the 985U, into RCA couplers into the RCA-SCART adapter and plug that into the XRGB."

[zakk]

More new stuff from blackmagic:

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/produc ... orecorder/


This is actually interesting; it's essentially their answer to the HD-PVR. It's overkill for most people; there's probably 3 people here who even have SDI equipment (hi, fudoh!). I'll probably give this a try when it comes out; Blackmagic is a solid company; they make good hardware and their software and support is pretty good too so I expect this box to work very well for my needs.

[Ed Oscuro]

That's nice and at least an order of magnitude cheaper than I expected. I think I see Y, B, R inputs on there; component video, RGB? SDI is nice, doesn't seem required to use it.

[Fudoh]

There's also a HMDI input. RGB isn't supported, 240p neither. With HD-SDI it's a fantastic price for anyone who needs this feature. The passthrough of YUV signals seems to make the HD-PVR make the better choice for gamers though. That is unless you don't mind adding a 1:2 Component or HDMI splitter to your setup....

[akumajo]

yeah just missing passthrough ...

@Fudoh : bought vp30 and cables, should received it next week, will upload stuff, anything special you would like to see (if it works )?

[zakk]

Yeah, I don't care about passthrough at all, that's what the 8x4 matrix switch is for...

I'd be dropping it in where my HD-PVR is now anyways.

[Fudoh]

Gratulations! how much did you end up paying for the VP30 ? ABT102 card included ?

I still can't stand handling h.264 files for editing, but let us know what software you use to avoid double encoding your material.

[akumajo]

450€ with ABT102

current europe range price is 380~600€

less expensive in the usa (250~400€) but shipping etc...

i will use Sony Vegas for editing, many people seems to use it (youtube)

[Fudoh]

450 seems ok. An Edge with the neccessary HDMI -> analogue converter would run 600-700 Euro.

Does Vegas natively edit non-VfW codecs like h.264 ?

[akumajo]

all i know is that you can import .M2TS files to Vegas Pro 9

there is also a software that can directly cut files (VideoReDo Suite)
another method is possible with Premier Pro CS4

interesting link : http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3180 ... e-Premiere

to be honest i'm new to capture world but i will learn

[Fudoh]

to be honest i'm new to capture world but i will learn

ic, ok. I've done hundreds, probably thousands of hours of work in Premiere, but I try to use VirtualDub whenever I can. I really does all I need for short and easy editing. VDub works fine with h.264 files if they frameserved using AVISynth. It's just that this way the output requires a rendering no matter how small the changes are...

I also haven't seen any editing app which allowes me to restore a 240p stream from a 480i capture EXCEPT for VirtualDub.

Let us know how it goes and if you have any questions regarding the VP30 in general, feel free to send a PM.

[akumajo]

VP30 and cables received

the setup is working !

here's a quick preview using HDPVR tools (Arcsoft), the capture have no sound, video quality is set to default (not max)

megaupload link

please open video with media player, for unknow reason its laggy with vlc

VP30 is set to 720p, some tweaks are needed it seems (picture is a bit instable)

any recommendation to improve settings are welcome (on VP30 and on HDPVR)

[Fudoh]

Still on your quest to record the XRGB-3 output I see.

Too much sharpness. Set the VP30's sharpness control to -1. This is the neutral setting. The scaling engine adds sharpness enough, so there's no need for additional sharpness.

Turn down the brightness and turn up the saturation. Remember that you're recording YUV video levels (you might not actually see this right on your PC screen - depends on your player settings).

Any reason why you use unlocked framerate output ? Any problems with locking it (60Hz locked) ?

[akumajo]

Any reason why you use unlocked framerate output ? Any problems with locking it (60Hz locked) ?

If i dont, i have no signal (just like the problem i had before buying VP30).

I will do more test this week end.

[Fudoh]

I will do more test this week end.

you should try to take the XRGB-3 out of the chain. With the XSELECT you have the perfect solution for this. I don't exactly know how your setup looks like, but why don't you wire it this like (using the XSELECT as a splitter):

SOURCES ---> XSELECT

XSELECT --(DSUB15)--> XRGB-3 ---> TV
XSELECT --(YUV)--> VP30 ---> HDPVR

The VGA connection between the XSELECT and the XRGB-3 has only advantages anyway (like superior analogue filtering).

[akumajo]

ok let's see

Project

• * to be able to play on HDTV and capture (video and sound) old and modern consoles at the same time
  * to be able to use 5.1 sound if available
  * no need to plug / unplug cables
  * to be able to upscale games (ex: ps2 games @ 720p)
  * less input lag possible

Consoles

• * NES - USA (output : Composite)
  * Super Nes - JAP (output : Jap RGB using official Nintendo cable)
  * Genesis/SegaCD - US (output : Pal RGB using custom RGB cable)
  * PCEngine CD - JAP (output : RGB modded, can use Pal RGB or Jap RGB with an adapter, depend of cable used)
  * Nintendo 64 - US (output : RGB modded, using custom RGB cable)
  * Saturn - JAP (output : Pal RGB using universal cable "Super RGB Cable")
  * PlayStation 2 - JAP (output: Jap RGB using official PlaysStation cable, used for PlayStation 1 games only)
  * Dreamcast - US (output : VGA using vgabox)
  * PSP (D-Terminal or YUV using XRGB-3 and Zoom features)
  * GameCube - JAP (output : YUV)
  * Wii - US (output : YUV)
  * PlayStation 2 - PAL (output : YUV + optical)
  * PlayStation 3 - PAL (output : YUV + optical)
  * Xbox - US (output : YUV + optical)
  * Xbox 360 - PAL (output : YUV + optical)

Available hardware

• * YUV switch : Joytech AV Control Center 245c (6 YUV + 4 x optical inputs)
  * YUV switch : 2 x Farmer YPbPr Power Box (total 6 x YUV inputs)
  * PAL Scart switch : Joytech AV Control Center 2 (5 x RGB inputs)
  * JAP Scart switch : SELECTY21 (3 x RGB inputs)
  * Transcoder / switch / upscaler : DVDO VP30
  * Transcoder / switch / upscaler: XRGB-3
  * Transcoder / switch : XSelecty-D4
  * capture device : Hauppauge HDPVR

My current setup


Your setup


The problem with your setup is that i miss some points of my project.

[Fudoh]

The problems or unnecessities I see in your setup:

- the VP30 is not lagfree when feeding it with progressive signals. You can check this by setting the audio delay to it's absolute minumum. The value you read there is the actual lag the processor adds. The lowest lag you can achieve is for 240p and 480i signals. It should be around 6ms. For progressive inputs you might have to use PREP + GM1/2 to achieve lower latencies.

- you're giving away some quality by only using component from the modern sources. Also by not using the HDMI inputs in your TV.

- There's hardly a good reason for recording from the XRGB. It probably depends on your desired end video format, but stuff like scanlines can always be added afterwards and as you notice, recording the XRGB's output seems to cause a few studders in the recording. Futhermore the VP30 will handle all your vintage signals (like PAL RGB) just fine by it's own.

I would approach it this way:

- connect the XRGB's output directly to your TV's VGA input.
- connect the HD-PVR passthrough YUV output to your TV's component input
- connect the HDMI output of the VP30 to your TV's HDMI input (so you can bypass the HDPVR when just playing)
- connect the YUV output of the VP30 to your HDPVR's YUV input

For PLAYING (vintage)

- connect the XSELECT's VGA output to the VGA/D2 input on your XRGB
- connect your whole Scart switch thing to your XSELECT's Scart input.

For RECORDING (vintage)

- connect your XSELECT's YUV output for the VP30's component input

Dreamcast:

- directly into the VP30 for VGA games (but running through the XSELECT is fine as well).
- into your scart switch for RGB games

Wii:

- directly into the VP30 using the 2nd SD/HD component input

XBox360:

- HDMI directly into the VP30. The 360's is unprotected and will be output both digital and analogue by the VP30

- PS3:

- Component into the VP30. Since you want to record, you'll use 720p output anyway. So you can use the set of BNC inputs above the analogue output. This way you can use all three component inputs on your VP30.

PSP:

I doubt that you'll record all of your plays, so I would keep this portable... Into the XRGB-3 for fullscreen gaming on the TV and directly into the XSElect for recording. I would not use the D2 zoom for PSP recording. The XRGB's scaling there is't great. Feeding the unzoomed PSP image intot he VP30 should be better for recording.

For PS2 and others like the 2nd 360 you can still use your component switch on one of the VP30's input. Just make sure to use the RCA inputs on the VP30, since the BNC only accept 480p up.


What do you think ?

[akumajo]

hmm, that would be something like this right ?



just ignored hdmi output for xbox 360 for now

i need to think

[Fudoh]

This is pretty much it. Just make a few sample captures without the XRGB-3 in the line and if you're ok with the results, then go for it.

[akumajo]

ok i think that i like xselecty -> vp30 ...

but currently i'm trying to fix this "instable" capture

to be sure that it was not vp30 fault i directly connected Wii and surprise ! same problem

so i changed usb cable (no changes), then another computer (no changes)

HDPVR bug or broke ?

edit :
VP30@480p/720p : have problem
Wii@480p : have problem
Xbox 360@480p/720p : dont have problem
Xbox 1 @480p : have problem
Gamecube @480i/p : have problem
PlayStation 3@720p : have problem
PlayStation 2@480i/p : have problem

i feel that this week end will be crap

why xbox 360 dont have problem

edit 2 :
problem fixed !, this "flickering" bug is a problem with driver version, using a specific older version fix the problem

edit 3 :
so i tested various things with HD-PVR, here some informations if anyone is/will be in the same boat...

CD version : 2.0
Driver version : 1.0.5.2 (no bug)
ArcSoft TotalMedia Extreme version : 1.0.9.5

CD version : 2.4
Driver version : 1.5.6.1 (flickering bug)
ArcSoft TotalMedia Extreme version : 1.0.9.9 (does not works with driver version 1.0.5.2)

Latest official driver version on Hauppauge website : 1.5.6.1 (flickering bug)
Latest official version of ArcSoft TotalMedia Extreme : 2.0.33.4 (does not works with driver version 1.0.5.2 but works with driver version 1.5.6.1)

Link about flickering bug : http://www.hauppauge.co.uk/board/showthread.php?t=17668
Last check : 01 may 2010

Short answer, if you dont want problems like me, just use CD version 2.0.

[akumajo]

ok did more captures, sorry it's huge ...

some tests

gameplay

the VP30 is not lagfree when feeding it with progressive signals. You can check this by setting the audio delay to it's absolute minumum. The value you read there is the actual lag the processor adds. The lowest lag you can achieve is for 240p and 480i signals. It should be around 6ms. For progressive inputs you might have to use PREP + GM1/2 to achieve lower latencies

Fudoh, can you give more detail ? i cant find this option or i dont understand what you mean.

As far i know, Xselecty is lag free, Xrgb3 b1 mode : less than 1 frame (?? ms), VP30 Game 1 mode : less than 1 frame (6 ms?), VP30 Game 2 mode : 2 frames ? (24 ms?).

Oh and next time i learn how to encode.

edit :
last test for today, psp to vp30
it's much better than xrgb3 and full screen is possible !

[Fudoh]

Fudoh, can you give more detail ?

sorry, might be mistaken when the PREP feature was introduced (maybe only with the VP50).
Nevertheless. What I meant was that you should check the processing delay of the VP30 with all the different source signals and deinterlacing modes. As said, you can check the delay in the audio delay option (just check the maximum negative delay).

It's been too long since I had my VP30, but maybe you can check how long's the processing delay for 480p and 720p sources and post it. Thanks.

[Fudoh]

last test for today, psp to vp30
it's much better than xrgb3 and full screen is possible !

believe it or not, but I don't like it. I really prefer the XRGB with the PSP. Probably caused by sheer phobia of any ringing produced by the scaling engine...

[Fudoh]

BTW: checking the Deinterlacing modes on 240p makes hardly sense. But check the difference on 480i material, then it get's obvious. Gamemode 2 has full 480 lines of resolution, while Gamemode1 only upscales 240 lines to fullscreen....

[akumajo]

I can't find the audio delay option.

All i have sound related is in INPUT ADJUST : Auto Priority / Audio Input / AV Lipsync

Maybe thats AV Lipsync ?