Superplay capture solutions

[Dave_K.]

Great news on the Hava Zakk. Did you ever get an XRGB2 to test with @ 480p?

[zakk]

Great news on the Hava Zakk. Did you ever get an XRGB2 to test with @ 480p?

No, not yet. I haven't really put any effort into finding an XRGB2 though.

I think that would pretty much make everything work in one easy package. The issue is the Hava doesn't really tolerate much deviation from NTSC or PAL framerates; Dangun (and probably all cave games on that generation hardware) and RFJ confuse it horribly.

Haupaugge has a Hava like unit that will 1) not scale the input and 2) output H264 encoded video. It uses USB. I may grab that one and see how it deals with weird input, but I don't think it'll do any better.

[zakk]

Let's bump this again; state of the capture update.

I think the capture landscape hasn't changed that much over the last year; what as changed is it's way easier to publish this stuff in a form that doesn't look terrible. Youtube HD uploading is great; and you can even do decent live streams via things like justin.tv and ustream.

I think right now there are three primary contenders for capturing:

1) Hauppauge HD-PVR. Takes component all the way up to 1080i, and svideo. Will also handle optical audio. This is a USB connected device that does on-board h264 encoding.
2) Blackmagic Intensity Pro. Takes HDMI in, or component in. This is a PCI-E card with software support for both OSX and Windows (and apparently some linux support too). The only catch is it will not capture 480p sources.
3) Sweetspot. This is perfect if you only care about 240p/480i capturing. Takes RGB, component, svideo and composite.

There are also various DVD recorder type things for low-res capturing. I know plenty of people happy with them but they're not really what I want/need.

It is worth noting that all of the above solutions may have issues with some of the 'odd' video timings from PCBs. The Sweetspot is a bit more forgiving in this regard; the Blackmagic and HD-PVR certainly are not.

However, the iScan VP30 scaler has handled every single thing I've thrown at it; even the weird stuff like Seibu Raiden Fighters generation boards. Using this scaler lets you feed a consistent and stable signal to the downstream capture devices. It's a bit pricy (look on ebay, the retail prices will scare you) but pretty brilliant for this use.

I'll go through what I currently have, and a bit of the workflow I've got. I do all this stuff under OSX, so it's not going to be helpful to you non-mac types. Sorry.

I currently have a iScan VP30 outputting to both an Blackmagic Intensity and an HD-PVR. I primarily use the HD-PVR (for reasons I will get into below) for capturing. The Blackmagic is excellent for live streaming sort of stuff; but then I realized: who wants to watch a guy play the first stage of a game over and over for 45 minutes? No one, that's who.

So, the HD-PVR provides decent quality (if you capture at high bitrate) manageable file size etc.

There are two programs for capturing under OSX, HDPVRCapture and EyeTV. I recommend EyeTV. HDPVRCapture writes m2ts files, which almost nothing deal with well under OSX (Final Cut Pro might? but lol?) It can remux to MP4, but I've found it often produces files that quicktime can't handle without crashing or stuttering. Additionally you have to convert the ENTIRE file to MP4. EyeTV lets you export captured clips to quicktime compatible files, and the process always seems to produce well behaved files. On top of that you can trim the clips before you export.

So I've worked out a gameplay->youtube workflow as such:

Capture footage with EyeTV, trim and export. If the footage is horizontally oriented and fits within timelimts/size restrictions for youtube, you can probably just upload the clip immediately and be done.

Vertical games however, require a bit of work. You'll need Quicktime Pro to do most of this. I capture everything at 720p, even PCBs. The VP30 does a decent enough job; doing 720p means I have the option of using the Blackmagic for simultaneous streaming/capturing if I need to.

Open the clip with Quicktime. Under Snow Leopard use the 'Quicktime 7' program, not QuickTime X. The first thing to do is trim the black bars on the sides. While the clip is playing, go to edit->copy. This puts a frame in the clipboard. Now, open Preview, and do File->'New From Clipboard'. Save it as a GIF. Now in Quicktime go to 'Window->Show Movie Properties' In the window that pops up click 'video track'. Then select 'Visual Settings' tab.

Now, drag the GIF you saved in Preview to the 'Mask' area. When that's done, hit the 'Invert' button. The clip should now be cropped; no black bars. Now do a File->Save As. Make sure to save it as a 'reference file' so it won't need to rewrite all the data.

Open the reference file you just saved. Go to the same Movie Properties/Visual Settings tab. Click the rotate button
that makes sense for your clip. (probably the one on the right, counter-clockwise rotate).

Now you're ready to re-encode. Go to 'File->Export'. Select 'Movie to MPEG-4' and then click 'Options'. Use H.264, and set the bitrate to whatever you want. I tend to go high, like 5000. Experiment a bit. Do 1280x720 HD for the image size, and select 'Preserve aspect ratio using:' and select 'Letterbox'.

Click OK and then Save. It'll chew through the clip (probably will take a while) and reencode it.

Then you just upload to youtube.

The result: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvVYhrE38EM (be sure to watch in HD, although even 480p is pretty acceptable)

[Fudoh]

Very, very nice result there!

I've got questions over and over again as well which of the two capture devices is better. If you're using a Windows PC for editing the footage it's just that editing the AVI files produced by the BMD is so much easier than hassling with the h.264 files done by the Hauppage box. The BMD AVIs can easily be thrown into any Virtual Dub version, cut and edited and output without any new rendering as long as you don't crop or rotate. The h.264 files of the HD-PVR have to be frameserved into VDub (using AVISynth) which requires a re-encoding after the first editing step. Other than that both solutions are great and the HD-PVR saves a lot of money when 480p needs to be captured and a lot of time with it's live h.264 encoding if no more editing is needed.

Would you mind uploading an unedited 480p capture from the HD-PVR box ? Possibly something initially 240p like a PCB (source -> VP30 -> 480p -> HD-PVR). Would be nice ! Thanks.

[Ed Oscuro]

One of the things keeping me from using the Sweetspot is concern about lag. How is it? Also, do you have something akin to a splitter? Being able to get another display running at the same time it's capturing would b a distinct advantage as well (for aesthetic reasons). I have an XRGB2 for relatively painfree video upscaling.

[Fudoh]

One of the things keeping me from using the Sweetspot is concern about lag. How is it?

Why would you want to play on the PC screen ? As you suggest, it makes much more sense to use a 1:2 splitter behind your source, play on your TV (or 2nd monitor input) as you always do and let the PC does it's stuff.

The sweetspot itself is practically lagfree. Any lag you see is introduced by the viewing/recording application of your choice along with it's deinterlacing/scaling/postprocessing filters.

[akumajo]

Hi.

I join this topic.

Today i bought an hdpvr and i was hoping to be able to use my xrgb-3.

Here the current setup :
xrgb-3@640x480 -> xselect-d4 (transcoder) -> hdpvr

tests :
xrgb-3@640x480 -> xselect-d4(VGA input set to yuv) -> hdpvr : black picture (this is normal), sound works
xrgb-3@640x480 -> xselect-d4(VGA input set to rgbhv) -> hdpvr : screen can't sync, i have picture for 1/2 seconds then poof

the problem seems to be that XRGB-3 can only output to RGBHV and HDPVR only accept YUV signal

any idea ? maybe adding another device between xselect-d4 and hdpvr ... (rgbhv to yuv converter?)

edit : something like this maybe ?
PDF manual

[Fudoh]

The Cypress converter you linked to practically does the same thing as your XSELECT.

This combo should work. Are you using the correct output on your XSELECT ?
The VGA input on the XSELECT has to be set to RGBHV of course.
You have to use the D-Terminal output on your XSELECT. You must NOT use the DSub15 output!!

Can you test the combo of XRGB+XSELECT on your HDTV's component inputs ?

the problem seems to be that XRGB-3 can only output to RGBHV and HDPVR only accept YUV signal

that's right, but that is why you bought the XSELECT in addition...

[akumajo]

ok more details about my combo

XRGB-3 (set to 640x480 B0 mode) --[vga to vga cable]--> XSELECT-D4 (input 3 set to RGBHV) --[d-terminal to yuv cable]--> HD-PVR --[yuv to yuv cable]--> HDTV

Can you test the combo of XRGB+XSELECT on your HDTV's component inputs ?

works, it's when i add HD-PVR in the chain that it doesnt works

could it be because XSELECT-D4 output signal is based on input source signal (rgbhv for XRGB-3) and i suspect HD-PVR to not support RGBHV but just YUV/YPbPr?

if i use ps3 -> xselect-d4 -> hdpvr, it works fine

so my theory is :
ps3 (YUV/YPbPr signal) -> xselect-d4 (YUV/YPbPr signal) -> hdpvr (works)
xrgb3 (rgbhv signal) -> xselect-d4 (rgbhv signal) -> hdpvr (does not works because signal is not supported ?)

[Fudoh]

could it be because XSELECT-D4 output signal is based on input source signal (rgbhv for XRGB-3) and i suspect HD-PVR to not support RGBHV but just YUV/YPbPr?

no, the transcoding is not the reason. The XSelect outputs real YUV on it's D-Terminal socket. The reason is the Sync signal of the XRGB's output which is somehow locked to the input signal and which causes all the incompatibilities between XRGB units and TVs out there. My guess is that the frequency is a tiny bit off the standard 59.94Hz.

Can you try the following things:

- use another input source into the XRGB (btw: which system did you use so far?)
- Try switching between B0 and B1.
- Try turning VSync on/off in both modes

and see if anything changes.

[zakk]

Check this out

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

There's now an 'intensity shuttle' which is a USB 3.0 capture box; looks like it's just the intensity but not PCI-E.

!!!! the specs list 480p support

[akumajo]

- use another input source into the XRGB (btw: which system did you use so far?)

ps1, snes, megacd, i cant even see the classical blue screen of xrgb-3

B0 mode/Vsync Off : not works
B0 mode/Vsync On : not works
B1 mode/Vsync Off : not works
B1 mode/Vsync On : not works

[Fudoh]

interesting (and disappointing of course). A friend of mine bought a HD PVR last month and I'll try to take my XRGB over to his house sometime soon to confirm your results though there's really hardly anything I could think of which would change the behaviour. Unfortunately the same would be true for other 480p capture solutions then (e.g. the new BMD Shuttle). The big difference in zakk's setup is the VP30 which completely regenerates the sync timings by decoupling the input signal from the output.

[akumajo]

another tests

super nes -> xselect-d4 (input 5 to rbgc) -> hdpvr -> hdtv : same resultat, can have picture for 1 sec then poof (desync)

ps2 (using official jpn rgb cable) -> xselect-d4 (input 5 to rbgc) -> hdpvr -> hdtv : stable image for ps2 menu (480i signal) then if using a ps1 game or 480p ps2 game the screen desync again and lose signal

[akumajo]

did some search

HD-PVR seems to use ADV-7401 chipset (source)

datasheet

Features
# Four 10-bit ADCs sampling up to 140 MHz
# 12 analog input channel mux & SCART fast blank support
# Internal Anti-Alias Filters
# NTSC/PAL/SECAM color standards support
# 525p-/625p-component progressive scan support
# 720p-/1080i-component HDTV support
# Digitizes RGB graphics up to 1280 × 1024 @ 75 Hz (SXGA)
# 24-bit digital input port supports data from DVI/HDMI Rx IC
# Any-to-any, 3 × 3 color-space conversion matrix
# Industrial temperature range (−40°C to +85°C)
# 12-bit 4:4:4/8-bit 4:2:2 DDR pixel output interface
# VBI data slicer (including TeleText)

Specifications
# Resolution (Bits): 10bit
# ADC Speed (MHz): 140MHz
# Output Resolution (bits): 8bit
# Input Color Formats: NTSC,PAL,SECAM
# Input Signal Types: Composite,RGB,RGB SCART,Y/C,YPbPr
# Data Output Formats: 12-bit RGB DDR,24-bit YCbCr/RGB 4:4:4,8 & 16-bit YCbCr 4:2:2
# # Input Channels: 12
# Package: 100-Lead LQFP
# Power Dissipation (mW): 550mW

[Ramza]

...
However, the iScan VP30 scaler has handled every single thing I've thrown at it; even the weird stuff like Seibu Raiden Fighters generation boards. Using this scaler lets you feed a consistent and stable signal to the downstream capture devices. It's a bit pricy (look on ebay, the retail prices will scare you) but pretty brilliant for this use.

Thanks for your post, I'm looking for a solution to capture pcb gameplay in decent quality, so this is very interesting. However, I thought about recording in 480p instead of 720p. Would the Vigatec FX2 paired with a HD PVR (or maybe Intensity Shuttle) be a good setup for 15khz pcbs?

[Fudoh]

You might actually run into the same problems as akumajo above.

The Vigatec FX2 - just like the XRGB-3 - carries the signal specs (sync timings etc) from the input over to the output. This is likely the reason why akumajo's XRGB doesn't work with the HD PVR in 480p. The VP30 (or the iScan HD/HD+) will decouple the output from the input and produce a 100% perfect 59,94Hz signal - in both 480p and 720p.

Recording in 720p gives you also more scope to edit and stuff.

@akumajo: just out of curiosity, can you test the 240p capability of the HD PVR ? Just input a 240p RGBs signal into the XSelect and output 240p YUV from it, into the HD PVR. Thanks !

[akumajo]

just did other tests and without XRGB-3 now

sources (RGB cables) -> xselect-d4 -> hdpvr

source 1 : super famicom (1 sec screen then lose signal, progressive signal)
source 2 : megadrive (works, detected as 480i signal on tv but lose signal if starting a 240p game, one game was working and its Castlevania Bloodlines)
source 3 : ps2 (works, detected as 480i signal on tv but lose signal if starting ps1 240p game)
source 4 : n64 (1 sec screen then lose signal, progressive signal)
source 5 : pcengine cd (1 sec screen then lose signal)
source 6 : saturn (1 sec screen then lose signal)

so the problem seems to be with progressive signals (and xrgb3 is not involved ...)

currently i can capture megadrive@480i and ps2@480i with or without xrgb3

[zakk]

BTW, I'll upload a 720p and 480p captured clip in about a week; I'm out of the country right now and before I left I wasn't doing much PCB stuff, just 360.

What's the effective differences between the VP30 and the HD/HD+?

[akumajo]

back again, well i did try many combination/settings etc and still have this stupid problem...

the most simple setup :

super nes rgb -> xselecty-d4 (default setting) -> hdpvr : works
super nes rgb -> xselecty-d4 (default setting) -> hdpvr -> hdtv : dont works

any scart rgb source with progressive signal = lose sync, only megadrive works in both setup

ideal setup : something that will do like Zakk setup i suppose (lock the output framerate ? frequency conversion ?) , and must have componant input and componant output ...
super nes rgb -> xselecty-d4 (default setting) -> INSERT IDEA :p -> hdpvr -> hdtv

i have no idea

[akumajo]

BTW, I'll upload a 720p and 480p captured clip in about a week; I'm out of the country right now and before I left I wasn't doing much PCB stuff, just 360.

What's the effective differences between the VP30 and the HD/HD+?

What is the difference between the iScan VP30 and the iScan VP20 or iScan HD+?

The iScan VP30 offers the same innovative video processing technology as the VP20, while providing an expanded set of input and output choices and control functions.

The iScan VP30 offers the following additional features to the iScan HD+: 10-bit scaling, HDMI switching, analog HD component and analog RGBHV processing/ transcoding, and analog audio delay.

from http://www.anchorbaytech.com/support/faq/vp30.php#faq2

EDIT : Zakk, how do you connect VP30 to HDPVR ?

[Fudoh]

What's the effective differences between the VP30 and the HD/HD+?

The iScan HD/HD+ is based on a SIL504 processor. Basically the same chip already present in the ealier iScan units. They have an acceptable videomode for games with a processing delay of about 3 frames.

The *BASIC* iScan VP20/30 is just a iScan HD+ with added HDMI inputs. There was an update though, the ABT102 deinterlacing card which offered fantastic video deinterlacing and two new gamemodes, one with only 6ms delay, the other with 24ms delay.

The VP20 is the same as the VP30 without the VGA output and without the ability to add SDI inputs or define custom output resolutions.

[Fudoh]

super nes rgb -> xselecty-d4 (default setting) -> INSERT IDEA :p -> hdpvr -> hdtv

Any source -> iScan -> HDPVR -> HDTV.

how do you connect VP30 to HDPVR

The iScan HDs and VP30's BNC outputs can be configured to RGBHV or Component via simple menu setting.

[akumajo]

super nes rgb -> xselecty-d4 (default setting) -> INSERT IDEA :p -> hdpvr -> hdtv

Any source -> iScan -> HDPVR -> HDTV.

how do you connect VP30 to HDPVR

The iScan HDs and VP30's BNC outputs can be configured to RGBHV or Component via simple menu setting.

also, does iScan add input lag ?

btw, if it works, my full setup will be crazy...

yuv switch ----------> xselect-d4 -> iScan VP30 -> hd-pvr -> hdtv
rgb switch -> xrgb-3 -> xselect-d4 -> iScan VP30 -> hd-pvr -> hdtv

i will wait a bit before finding/buying a VP30, i really need to be sure that it will works this time...

[akumajo]

super nes rgb -> xselecty-d4 (default setting) -> INSERT IDEA :p -> hdpvr -> hdtv

Any source -> iScan -> HDPVR -> HDTV.

how do you connect VP30 to HDPVR

The iScan HDs and VP30's BNC outputs can be configured to RGBHV or Component via simple menu setting.

so i need a bnc to componant cable ? never used this kind of cable before

[Fudoh]

iScan HD+:



iScan VP30:



On the HD+ you use a VGA DSub15 to 3x RCA Component cable and on the VP30 you use a standard 3x RCA to 3x RCA component cable with three BNC/RCA adapters.

Processing lag: see my post above.

[Fudoh]

You use these:

[akumajo]

iScan HD+:



iScan VP30:



On the HD+ you use a VGA DSub15 to 3x RCA Component cable and on the VP30 you use a standard 3x RCA to 3x RCA component cable with three BNC/RCA adapters.

Processing lag: see my post above.

ok thanks Fudoh

[Fudoh]

yuv switch ----------> xselect-d4 -> iScan VP30 -> hd-pvr -> hdtv
rgb switch -> xrgb-3 -> xselect-d4 -> iScan VP30 -> hd-pvr -> hdtv

why would you use any of those ? You neither need the XSelect in the chain nor the XRGB. The only reason you'd use the XRGB-3 is that you want native scanlines in the recorded video...

really need to be sure that it will works this time..

it does. It's my setup (with a VP50Pro instead of a VP30) and exactly what zakk did above.

[akumajo]

why would you use any of those ? You neither need the XSelect in the chain nor the XRGB. The only reason you'd use the XRGB-3 is that you want native scanlines in the recorded video...

dont want to plug/unplug cables, but yeah maybe there is a better solution, the HD-PVR incompatibily changed everything in my case

it does. It's my setup (with a VP50Pro instead of a VP30) and exactly what zakk did above

alright