Why shmups are such a niche genre

[TrevHead (TVR)]

This kind of gaming elitism and snobbery is just offputting, if many people fondly remember Area 88/Gradius 3 and early shmups but no longer find modern ones fun, this means something fundamentally is was lost for the vast majority of gamers.

There are shmups (or any genre) still been made if you look hard enough its just that as a genre or sub genre of game gets less and less comercially viable smaller and smaller teams of developers will be prepared to make them. The type of shmups Caves makes is top dog in the genre but even they are indie in comparision to the big budget games made today. If you dont like cave then look elsewhere, if its not made commerically then look in shareware/ doujin circles or even freeware / fan games. Look at Sonic for example, while till sonic 4 the retro sonic fans wernt getting and big budget games made for them but there was still handheld and fangame 2d sonics been made.

When u find those shmups that cater to your tastes but still dont like them because they dont have the look or feel of the old retro games then it really is nostalgia.


Anyway watching that ronde vs vid the game (even though the patterns were abit too thick with undodgable bullets for me) looked to be fun, since i love fighters but cant be arsed learning to play them properly. So a vs fighter that used shmup mechanis looks ideal for me. Do either of the games have online vs play? (in europe) and if so is there enough decent players still playing?

[xris]

If this thread ever dies it should be added to the list of topics to avoid.

[dai jou bu]

Anyway watching that ronde vs vid the game (even though the patterns were abit too thick with undodgable bullets for me) looked to be fun, since i love fighters but cant be arsed learning to play them properly.

The best way to look at this game is that both players are shmup bosses that can transform into an ultimate mode. Most shmups don't give the player lifebars, but it's pretty much universal for bosses to have them, hence why they benefit from having lots of armor and firepower at their disposal. Shmup typically don't sport the kind of firepower the Rounders are throwing out either, and as a matter of fact, G.Rev took a lot of the bullet patterns from titles made from their parent company.

Do either of the games have online vs play? (in europe) and if so is there enough decent players still playing?

Both VOOT 5.66 for Xbox Live Arcade and Senko no Ronde have online play, and the latter is a disc release only. However, if you can grab the version Ubisoft picked up (it has the word WARTECH dwarfing the words "Senko no Ronde" below it since the publisher was afraid that the people would be turned off by the name since they couldn't pronounce it), it's region-free, and as far as I know, the save data for the game is universal for all regions.

I used to play Senko online, but then I quickly discovered that 1) most of the players are in different parts of the world, so you need to stay up at odd hours to even find people to play it, 2) all except one person who I found online who wants to get really good at this game generates enough latency in matches that the timing for executing actions is enough to both confuse me and generate a lot of rage because I'd end up eating attacks that wouldn't have happened if the game would FREAKING REGISTER THE BUTTON PRESSES IMMEDIATELY INSTEAD OF .918209112417819273 SECONDS LATER, and 3) The English-speaking community is both small and rather unorganized.

So I stopped playing for the most part.

[Kaiser]

Whoa whoa calm down everyone. Even though shmupsorrow is dumb, he made a valid point which you all reject, I do not defend him but he did bring up a valid point though he said it completely wrong way and he should have said it nicely instead. Something must have pushed off masses from shmups, it certainly wasn't lack of cinematic values like someone said earlier here. Think about it guys, when casuals think shmups now, they think "Every shmup is dodonpachi dai ou jou or DFK, screw it it's too hard I won't play it". We can blame Cave on that and their show-off shmups like DOJ, Mushi etc.

I don't say shmups should become casual but they should'nt be for fucking WR-only elitists. Cave can go fuck itself in that aspect. I don't say all cave shmups are difficulty show-offs but most of them are. Did you guys fucking forget where the genre started. If not space invaders, xevious, star force and their simplicity and foreigner accessability. We would'nt be here talking like morons now! Think about it, our mission should be to show casuals the easier shmups with not too easy but not too hard difficulty. Not discussing whenever casuals should fuck off or something like that.

I'm gonna say it again, our mission should be to spread shmups among masses however not difficulty show-offs like new Cave games. We should show them more friendly shmups like Star Force, Final Star Force, Strikers 1945 (psx ports due their multiple difficulties which even small kids can play, talking about monkey to normal!), Armed Police Batrider on training/normal, same with battle bakraid. C'mon guys! I don't say we should get rid of our current community and fun you guys are having with new cave games. I say we should keep it however we should introduce people to easy shmups or shmups with multiple settings and put it on easy or whatever is by there.

I hope you will understand what I said, I do not try to offend, force my opinion on everyone else. I just said what I had on my head for a long time already since I joined this community in 2006. Have some respect for newbies people. Bring more people into shmups... by starting with easy shmups! I mean c'mon guys, you will find easy ones. This post isn't intended to offend anyone. Just being honest.

Peace - Kaiser

[AraraSPAMWitch]

Oh God DFK and DeathSmiles are so hard!

[orange]

Oh God DFK and DeathSmiles are so hard!

[BIL]

Even though shmupsorrow is dumb, he made a valid point which you all reject, I do not defend him but he did bring up a valid point though he said it completely wrong way and he should have said it nicely instead.

You've misunderstood shmupsorrow1969 entirely. He's not saying something went wrong between Axelay and Dai Ou Jou. He's saying the entire genre is inherently worthless for anyone not satisfied with classic game design rooted in 1978. His "what turned off mainstreamers?" shtick is just his backpedalling after people rightly shot down his idiotic first post. Even if it were a genuine question, it's a stupid one. Shooters are about as old-fashioned gaming gets. It's a double-edged sword. No kidding, they won't be popular darlings these days.

Easier shooters aren't going to fare any better with the majority of gamers. They'd just substitute "impossible" for "boring" and go back to something more modern. I'd like to be proven wrong on that when Deathsmiles comes out. Not "love," I don't care that much.

[dai jou bu]

No kidding, they won't be popular darlings these days.

The 2D platformer would like to have a word with you, New Super Mario Brothers and it's Wii cousin in particular. They're almost as old as the shmup, yet both did something right that almost every shmup today is doing wrong.

What it is exactly I don't know, but if Nintendo was able to prove to the entire video game industry that the 2D platformer is far from dead as well as deserving store shelf space, then the same can be said about this genre as well.

[Herr Schatten]

if many people fondly remember Area 88/Gradius 3 and early shmups but no longer find modern ones fun, this means something fundamentally is was lost for the vast majority of gamers

What was "lost" is shooters being up to par with all the other games for bells, whistles, flash and general mainstream hooks. Nothing of value, in other words.

This pretty much nails it.

I'm probably going out on a limb here, but I think that the market for shmups actually hasn't been considerably larger in the past, it's just that the market for videogames in general was much smaller and more specialized, so shmups were a larger part of it. The whole market was pretty much ignored by the mainstream anyway, so it could as well cater to the tastes of niche gamers. Contrary to popular belief, that niche market hasn't so much evolved into the mass market we have today, it's rather that with the approach of new and better hardware, a giant mass market has grown outside the (former) niche. This one caters to the tastes of completely different people, e.g. people who play for immersion rather than for the pure and abstract mechanics of a game. I think if you count only the genres the "original" videogame market consisted of (shmups, puzzlers, 2D platformers, etc.), you'll find that shmups still make up a large part of that, and that the "original" market and its fan base are largely left unchanged.

For those who liked the old games as games, like us shmuppers here, everything's fine. Shmupsorrow, on the other hand, is one of those who always wanted the games he can play today, but since the hardware wasn't ready for that, he played the old games as some sort of substitute. That's why he feels that he has 'lost' something shmups could provide for him in the past, when actually he never really liked them as games. The rest is nostalgia.

[Kaiser]

Even though shmupsorrow is dumb, he made a valid point which you all reject, I do not defend him but he did bring up a valid point though he said it completely wrong way and he should have said it nicely instead.

Easier shooters aren't going to fare any better with the majority of gamers. They'd just substitute "impossible" for "boring" and go back to something more modern. I'd like to be proven wrong on that when Deathsmiles comes out. Not "love," I don't care that much.

Dear BIL, I do agree with you that shmupsorrow said it just because his insults backfired on him, he's one helluva FPS elitist then. I don't deny Mushi Futari and Espgaluda II (360 ports) features like novice mode which actually, go well with my idea. The last problem remains region-locking which is up to publishers mainly and developers. THere's always place for bringing it over to states... and europe which everyone forgets about. Now if Aksys/Atlus weren't dumb or publishers in general. This is a sad dream though. WE know how everyone ignores europe and how much games don't even make it to states.

Like I say, nor we should get rid of current community but not reject newcomers. The more shmups with modes for us "veterans" and for "newcomers" like Novice modes in Espgaluda II and Mushi Futari 360, the better for us all!

It's the best choice, if a shmup has modes for newbies and veterans, it will appeal to both. Now to get rid of region-locking problem or publishing problem and we're done (which is impossible lol, I mean the region lock or publish part). Only case I would see for newcomer a shmup being boring is slow pace, bad music and quite bland gameplay mechanics along with graphics. Those are called euroshmups like Shoot 1-up, Z-out etc. you get it. If you could provide a moderate/fast pace, great music, great gameplay mechanics which everyone can pick up due variety of modes and quite good graphics, both 2D and 3D are fine. If people buy Megaman 9, 10. or Blazblue. Why not shmups? WE JUST NEED to iron these issues out... but that's not up to us sadly.

and dear BIL. I do not enforce my opinion on you or anyone else. I'm just expressing it.

I said everything I wanted to say. I've got nothing more, nothing less to say. My opinion is basically, said completely.

[BIL]

No kidding, they won't be popular darlings these days.

The 2D platformer would like to have a word with you, New Super Mario Brothers and it's Wii cousin in particular. They're almost as old as the shmup, yet both did something right that almost every shmup today is doing wrong.

What it is exactly I don't know, but if Nintendo was able to prove to the entire video game industry that the 2D platformer is far from dead as well as deserving store shelf space, then the same can be said about this genre as well.

Shooters are nowhere near as approchable as the average SMB game. And watering them down to the point they would be has been discussed already. It's an obvious solution and an unappealing one, at face value... a better comparison would be the 2D run and gun, which is also nearly as old as the shooter, similarly associated with coin-op levels of difficulty, and also nearly as marginalised these days.

I would like to see a modern take on the Guardian Legend. A user-friendly, explorable overworld with some truly hardcore shooting segments kept optional. That's one way I could see shooters' performance focus incorporated into a less imposing type of game. Ultimately though, I wouldn't want shooters to go in that direction at the expense of challenge.

Like I say, nor we should get rid of current community but not reject newcomers. The more shmups with modes for us "veterans" and for "newcomers" like Novice modes in Espgaluda II and Mushi Futari 360, the better for us all!

It's the best choice, if a shmup has modes for newbies and veterans, it will appeal to both.

Agreed - I think novice modes are the best option, and a good idea in themselves.

[Taylor]

This has been covered at least twice.

But, regardless, including easier modes to broaden the audience of shmups is a good idea. I don't really think this is what shmupsorrow77 was getting at, though.

[gs68]

I was at Sakura-Con's Touhou panel and while I understood the need to show off the game's harder difficulties and bosses, attempting to demonstrate the game with those wasn't the way to go; you just lost potential players. When we want to show people shmups, we shouldn't be going "Okay, here's how to play: [insert Futari Ultra or Touhou game on Lunatic or Hibachi here along with some half-ass explanation] okay that's bullet hell in a nutshell"; that's like a fighting game tourney winner trying to teach a newcomer by beating his ass repeatedly.

If you wanna get someone into shooters, shouldn't you also, you know, show them easier stages and basic controls and strategies?

[Exarion]

This has been covered at least twice.

But, regardless, including easier modes to broaden the audience of shmups is a good idea. I don't really think this is what shmupsorrow77 was getting at, though.

His first post five pages back stated that because shmups remained 2D, they are inferior to 3D games. Looking at the shmup month podcast, there are people out there who will be interested in this type of game. Several people there were new, and even though they could not complete the challenges they were given, they still liked the game they were given. The only cases I remember where the person did not like the game is when they had already played the game and did not like it before. There is an audience out there, we just have to find it.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I was at Sakura-Con's Touhou panel and while I understood the need to show off the game's harder difficulties and bosses, attempting to demonstrate the game with those wasn't the way to go; you just lost potential players. When we want to show people shmups, we shouldn't be going "Okay, here's how to play: [insert Futari Ultra or Touhou game on Lunatic or Hibachi here along with some half-ass explanation] okay that's bullet hell in a nutshell"; that's like a fighting game tourney winner trying to teach a newcomer by beating his ass repeatedly.

If you wanna get someone into shooters, shouldn't you also, you know, show them easier stages and basic controls and strategies?

I agree with u there, that futari hardest boss ever you tube vid always springs to mind when someone brings this up. with many ppl thinking that its just one of those wacky japanese games that only sad ppl with no lives would play. They dont realise that many gamers have been playing for years and that the game was in god mode. The other half of ppl commenting are all touhou nuts proclaming touhou makes futari look like a walk in the park.

[AraraSPAMWitch]

I was at Sakura-Con's Touhou panel and while I understood the need to show off the game's harder difficulties and bosses, attempting to demonstrate the game with those wasn't the way to go; you just lost potential players. When we want to show people shmups, we shouldn't be going "Okay, here's how to play: [insert Futari Ultra or Touhou game on Lunatic or Hibachi here along with some half-ass explanation] okay that's bullet hell in a nutshell"; that's like a fighting game tourney winner trying to teach a newcomer by beating his ass repeatedly.

If you wanna get someone into shooters, shouldn't you also, you know, show them easier stages and basic controls and strategies?

Actually, I learned to play Melty Blood getting repeatedly destroyed by one of the top players in the country, and that was the first fighting game I took seriously. Of course, there's only so much one can learn while playing in those kind of situations, you will need less difficult experiences to learn basics, but I think exposure to really difficult situations early on is useful. But yes, I think in some ways you are right that Touhou lunatic or Hibachi or whatever are poor ways to try to get people into the genre, and I think whatever shit was happening at Sakura-con was just nerds trying to show off how fucking pro they are at Touhou (GJ guys!), because fat chicks with cat ears are usually impressed by people playing danmaku games well.

All that said, how important is it to introduce new people to the genre that we need to add easy modes and other assorted shit? People who become interested in "hardcore genres" don't generally do so because someone eased them into it -- they do it because they're attracted to things like challenge and actually having to think or competition or whatever. You don't ease someone into getting a competitive mindset via holding their hand, you throw them naked covered in honey into a pit of vicious pooh bears and if they give a fuck they'll stay and fight to the death and if they don't, they'll run home and masturbate to Cloud/Sephiroth fanfiction. Giving a fuck happens completely independent of novice mode hand holding; it's something coded in you.

And do we really need developers to design games that cater to the tastes of those who like to fly around and see things explode? Pfft, fuck that, as long as there are people who give a fuck developers will make games for them.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I agree with u that hard games attract those gamers wanting a challenge i dont think everybody who gets into shmups can jump staight into the hardest shooters out there and stick with it for the long term without needing some short term satisfaction.

Before i got into shmups i was a gamer who overused savestates on fps games and had half the games i had played only played half way thru and not to completion. Sure i liked the idea of a challenge when i turned to shmups but i honestly cant say i would of stuck with them if there wasnt something easy like blue wish reserrection to ease myself in with. Then again if i did start with something like DDP i might of been a better player then i am now.

[neorichieb1971]

Someone should put a shmup bonus level in a Halo or a Modern Warfare game. I'm sure it will wake up a few sleeping shmuppers.

Shmups are niche because they are hard to find, awkward to buy (in some cases) and relatively ignored. I would imagine that most people wouldn't buy the game because there are so many old revisions of the genre that are just as satisfying, its not as if the genre has moved on that much. Perhaps once every decade a new kind of shmup is born.

[captpain]

Someone should put a shmup bonus level in a Halo or a Modern Warfare game. I'm sure it will wake up a few sleeping shmuppers.

Shmups are niche because they are hard to find, awkward to buy (in some cases) and relatively ignored. I would imagine that most people wouldn't buy the game because there are so many old revisions of the genre that are just as satisfying, its not as if the genre has moved on that much. Perhaps once every decade a new kind of shmup is born.

You've basically just said that shmups are niche because they are niche

[gs68]

I'd like to think that Futari Novice will get people into Cave shooters (and, subsequently, do away with the notion that Cave = 100% virtually impossible, no Americans can do that), but it's part of a port that costs $80 or so outside of the US.

[Exarion]

I'd like to think that Futari Novice will get people into Cave shooters (and, subsequently, do away with the notion that Cave = 100% virtually impossible, no Americans can do that), but it's part of a port that costs $80 or so outside of the US.

DeathSmiles should be easy enough, and looks different enough for people to not panic. When people see the stage 5 boss of futari, they will panic. You can't even show them the novice original stage 5 boss without them calling it impossible. I've tried. They did not do the same thing for the final boss of ESP Galuda II novice black label or Omake, despite the Omake mode Kujaku looking much nastier than larsa on novice original. I really hope DeathSmiles sells well.

[gs68]

I don't like making newcomers thing "aww I suck, I'll never be good as people on the Hi Scores forum". I want them to think they're still good in their own right, as developing players. (Which is why I don't play TFIII/AC/Spirits anymore. Every time I play I think of the people who go "lol I 1LC'd Mania on my first try using only my pen0r to play" and I end up wanting to snap my laptop in half.)

Hence why when I'm personally demonstrating a game for someone curious, I try to use earlier stages on default difficulty. A few months ago, I was showing my friend how to play Pop'n Music; instead of diving into 34's, I opted for songs in the low 10's so she could have a grasp of what the game looks like instead of thinking "No way, that's impossible!" There's enough videos on YouTube referring to Pop'n as "that crazy Japanese speed game."

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Every time I play I think of the people who go "lol I 1LC'd Mania on my first try using only my pen0r to play" and I end up wanting to snap my laptop in half.)

Comments like that always make me green as im a player who cant just rely on skill alone and can only complete even the easy shmups by memorisation and pratice.

[Exarion]

About a video of queen larsa on ultra:

Wow... that looks like a complete Touhou ripoff to me -.- Even the hitbox is there...

Made about 3 hours before this post. I've seen the idiotic part of the touhou fandom bash other danmaku games, but not like this. We NEED to get more people to know about shmups as a whole and not just touhou, futari ultra, and hibachi if we want these games to keep coming out.

[Taylor]

From that video I clicked on another, which itself is amusing, and read

Queen Larsa's so much weaker than most Touhou bosses. Just look up the final boss of Touhou 6 or 7. you'll see.

I wish I could still auto-hide comments on youtube.

[gs68]

does the bonus boss of TH06 count as a final boss

[Schrodinger's cat]

About a video of queen larsa on ultra:

Wow... that looks like a complete Touhou ripoff to me -.- Even the hitbox is there...

Made about 3 hours before this post. I've seen the idiotic part of the touhou fandom bash other danmaku games, but not like this. We NEED to get more people to know about shmups as a whole and not just touhou, futari ultra, and hibachi if we want these games to keep coming out.

I see those comments ALL the time... no matter how far from Touhou the game actually is. I really don't get the insecure need to claim "[insert touhou game] is harder than this!" in almost every goddamn youtube shooting game video I visit. Imagine watching a video of your favorite band and always seeing "Insane Clown Posse rocks harder!" in the comments. Most people know that they don't and no one really cares.

[gs68]

Never mind that TH games tend to be easier, at least if you're comparing default difficulties of Cave and Touhou games.

On a side note, I strangely feel horrible whenever a Touhou fan talks about how he can't get past the 2nd or 3rd stage of a Touhou game on Normal difficulty using all 3 continues. As someone who has ALL'd EoSD on Normal and nearly ALL'd PCB on Normal, I feel like a complete monster for indirectly making them feel like shit that I can do what they definitely cannot.

[Pirate1019]

On a side note, I strangely feel horrible whenever a Touhou fan talks about how he can't get past the 2nd or 3rd stage of a Touhou game on Normal difficulty using all 3 continues. As someone who has ALL'd EoSD on Normal and nearly ALL'd PCB on Normal, I feel like a complete monster for indirectly making them feel like shit that I can do what they definitely cannot.

Don't. They like Touhou primarily for the fanart/music and are only making an attempt at justifying their fan status to the people who really play the damn things.

Well, I'm making assumptions. Are these Touhou fans you speak of from /jp/?

[neorichieb1971]

I think people are missing the point. Its not if you can get to stage 5 or 6 in Futari, its if the person feels its going to be an enjoyable experience getting as far as they can get.

Is it so hard to figure out that shmups are against the trends of natural evolution. Your asking someone to go back in time when they want to go forwards.

For shmups to succeed they need to get played by Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, be in rap videos.

One way to get the ball rolling is to make a standard Star Wars shmup. Those SW fanatics will buy up anything. Its the Western side of things that are at fault, they don't make good shmups and Japanese ones are seen as too "out there" to be considered.