UPDATED:Treasure Developing Sega Gunstar Heroes PS2 release

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:55 pm

llabnip wrote:These ports - for better or worse - do depreciate the impact of the Saturn...

Again, though, the newer releases are usually decidedly "lower-end" than the original ones; while the originals were truly "ports," these are often better termed "legal emulation," with few extras or "trimmings," such as separate play modes or high score tables, and you can forget "fan discs" a la TSS or Sengoku Blade, or bonus characters or stages for that matter. If nothing else, the value of the originals in most cases isn't going anywhere: The Saturn Sengoku Blade is still getting 60-70 bucks regularly on eBay, while the PS2 dual pack, despite also including the only home version of Sengoku Ace, is already on its way down to 30-40 bucks from the 50-60 it commanded closer to its launch. Owners of the originals still have no reason to feel "threatened" (or whatever) by the new re-releases, at least in most cases, as far as I'm concerned.

PaCrappa · Post by **PaCrappa** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:56 pm

llabnip wrote:These ports - for better or worse - do depreciate the impact of the Saturn...

I'm sorry but it's 2005 and the Saturn has no impact. Oh it had an impact but it's dead now. Nobody cares except a couple hundred nerdies. Releasing games that were exclusive to Saturn or any other console past will help diversify the 'impact' of any modern system they're ported to, but they're not stealing life away from a dead system. Everybody that has a Saturn and loves it will keep it and keep playing. Most of the folks that are unaware of it's worth as a crunkass gaming system will most likely remain unaware. And of course most likely not play games that "look old". And most likely use their $$$ to buy GTA games or Maddens.

Pa

llabnip · Post by **llabnip** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:07 pm

PaCrappa wrote:
llabnip wrote:These ports - for better or worse - do depreciate the impact of the Saturn...
I'm sorry but it's 2005 and the Saturn has no impact.

Sorry, my words were not well crafted. By impact, I didn't mean impact on the gaming scene. I meant that there is less and less reason to actualy own a Saturn since the great exclusives for the console continue to shrink. I tend not to think in terms of current systems vs. dead systems - it's so easy to pick up an older system and most of the games are cheaper than they were new (i.e. under $50) so I generally recommend a system based on what games it has... and the amazing Saturn library is becoming less and less unique.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:08 pm

llabnip wrote:
jp wrote:I'm not all that worried about them porting Saturn games...
Given that I've got a collection that would rival even yours, I'm not worried either... but the PS2 continues to cut into the Saturn exclsuives (with no end in sight) as well as provide a ton of its own exclusives (not to mention the Genesis and Dreamcast games that have jumped ship - Sonics, Street Fighter 3rd Strike, KOF2k+, now Treasure's Megadrive games, etc.). I heard the Dragon Force double pack is coming for the PS2 (if it's not out already). More will follow. Is it really all that unthinkable that Battle Garegga will appear on a retro pack for the PS3? Or Radiant Silvergun ported for the first time? I think it's only a matter of time. There will be a point when the PS3 not only has a ton of its own great games, but all the games for the PS2, PS1 and many of the better games from systems (Dreamcast, Saturn, Genesis and SMS) and arcade boards from years past...

First off, plenty of MD/Genesis games were ported to both the Saturn and PC (certainly the Sonic games), so that's nothing new. Secondly, anything SNK/SNK-P on anything other than a Neo Geo MVS/AES/CD is a port to begin with. The KOFs, Garous and GekkaNoKenshi's getting ported from DC to PS2 had to be ported from Neo Geo to DC in the first place.. so one can hardly call them "DC Exclusives".

Now, a lot of these classic packs contain very straight-forward ports.. more often than not of the arcade originals which don't feature any of the special bonuses of the prior console ports (such as Morrigan in Gunbird 2 DC or Marion in Sengoku Blade Saturn... just to name a few).

And what if Battle Garegga does appear on a PS3 collection disc? It certainly won't be a port of the bells-&-whistles Saturn version, but rather a port of the original arcade board.

I don't think it's a terrible thing for many of these games to see releases on more contemporary hardware... mostly due to the fact that they'll reach a greater audience. However, given the fact they all have a tendancy to end up as rather bare-bones ports, I don't see them affecting the mystique (or value.. both collector-wise and resale-wise) of the older, added-bonus ports.

PaCrappa · Post by **PaCrappa** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:16 pm

llabnip wrote:
PaCrappa wrote:
llabnip wrote:These ports - for better or worse - do depreciate the impact of the Saturn...
I'm sorry but it's 2005 and the Saturn has no impact.
Sorry, my words were not well crafted. By impact, I didn't mean impact on the gaming scene. I meant that there is less and less reason to actualy own a Saturn since the great exclusives for the console continue to shrink. I tend not to think in terms of current systems vs. dead systems - it's so easy to pick up an older system and most of the games are cheaper than they were new (i.e. under $50) so I generally recommend a system based on what games it has... and the amazing Saturn library is becoming less and less unique.

I was trying to think of an eloquent way to explain that most of the Saturn's big name games are ports themselves and not exclusive in any way, but Kiken beat me to it and was much more eloquent at that.

But I will say that most of the real Saturn exclusives are junk. You could count the good ones on two hands and maybe a random toe.

Pa

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:33 pm

PaCrappa wrote:I was trying to think of an eloquent way to explain that most of the Saturn's big name games are ports themselves and not exclusive in any way...

Well, "exclusive" in the sense that they're the only versions of the games which exist for a "home" system, since most gamers, shmuppers included, can't afford the money or space to collect PCBs or the like. Maybe "semi-exclusive" or "port-exclusive" would a better term.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:36 pm

llabnip wrote:Given that I've got a collection that would rival even yours, I'm not worried either... but the PS2 continues to cut into the Saturn exclsuives (with no end in sight) as well as provide a ton of its own exclusives (not to mention the Genesis and Dreamcast games that have jumped ship - Sonics, Street Fighter 3rd Strike, KOF2k+, now Treasure's Megadrive games, etc.). I heard the Dragon Force double pack is coming for the PS2 (if it's not out already). More will follow. Is it really all that unthinkable that Battle Garegga will appear on a retro pack for the PS3? Or Radiant Silvergun ported for the first time? I think it's only a matter of time. There will be a point when the PS3 not only has a ton of its own great games, but all the games for the PS2, PS1 and many of the better games from systems (Dreamcast, Saturn, Genesis and SMS) and arcade boards from years past...

These ports - for better or worse - do depreciate the impact of the Saturn... One of the things I love about the Saturn are the tons of great games in generes that I enjoy that were only done for that system. There was a time, not long ago, when you simply couldn't recommend a better machine for shooters or fighters. Those days are gone. So while these Sega Ages ports and other collection packs (Psikyo, Taito, Capcom, Playmore/SNK, etc) don't worry me, they do diminish the shine and lure of owning a Saturn (or Dreamcast or Genesis). I don't blame Sega or the other companies for producing compilation packs... they are very popular and it does give a wider audience a chance to play these great games which may have otherwise languished in the back-catalogs of machines long since departed from this world.

Fuck systems. I play games.

PaCrappa · Post by **PaCrappa** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:51 pm

sethsez wrote: Fuck systems. I play games.

Wow man. So simple, yet so all encompassingly brilliant. It will be my new shmups.com forum signature in a matter of minutes.

Also, the existence of MAME renders all of the Saturn's arcade ports nonexclusive.

Pa

FatCobra · Post by **FatCobra** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:36 pm

The n00b wrote:This is great news! I can't wait for an RSG port. That would really piss off all those "collectors" selling the game for 200 dollars.

Reminds me of the uproar that happened when Final Fantasy:Tactics got a rerelease.

I, for one, would gladly buy a NSTC PS2 port of RSG even if the graphics were dummied down a bit and the cutscences were removed/Engrishified.

While I may pay $50 for an old SNES RPG that no-one but a few members of a cult care about (Earthbound), no way in hell am I gonna fork over $200 for ONE videogame. I don't care if RSG is the Holy Grail of shmups. That's still way too much money.

PaCrappa · Post by **PaCrappa** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:46 pm

Why would a game that consists of a small number of polygons over bland 2D backgrounds with a couple of bland 2D sprites need to be dummied down to be ported to the PS2?

Shit, that's the game that should get the full modern remake treatment. I like to play RSG, but man it looks like ass compared to something like, well, any Naomi shooter.

Pa

FatCobra · Post by **FatCobra** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:53 pm

PaCrappa wrote:Why would a game that consists of a small number of polygons over bland 2D backgrounds with a couple of bland 2D sprites need to be dummied down to be ported to the PS2?

Shit, that's the game that should get the full modern remake treatment. I like to play RSG, but man it looks like ass compared to something like, well, any Naomi shooter.

Pa

I was kinda cracking a joke about how shitty and lazy ports can be. Best offenders are Final Fantasy Anthology and Chronicoles, and all GBA SNES ports (Bland music, grahics, and lack of two buttons, but that's the hardware's fault mostly).

Do people criticize Ikaruga for Gamecube? Not for gameplay reasons, but because of portiness?

Hell, if all Treasure did is make the graphics high-rez, I'd buy the PS2 port for $50! Hell, it would be even better if Treasure ported it to Gamecube and said "screw you!" to Sony! I'd buy it regradless of console, only because this is the supposed "holy grail" of shmups, or is it just plain overrated?

azmun · Post by **azmun** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:11 am

PaCrappa wrote:I'm sorry but it's 2005 and the Saturn has no impact. Oh it had an impact but it's dead now. Nobody cares except a couple hundred nerdies.

Systems never did have "impact." It was the games that did that. Yes, it's 2005. And the last time I experienced a game which made a strong impression on me was over 5 years ago.

sethsez wrote:Fuck systems. I play games.

On the PS2 that is. At least that's how Sega and the many great developers have compelled the rest the community to finally take a look their work.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:15 am

The game is great, is huge, it's ambitious, impressing and original, but it is overrated all right. Alien VS Predator arcade gives me more fun and satisfaction that RSG. Not that it's bad. But RSG is not the be-all end-all definitive shooter that them Ebay price Jackers make it out to be.

Recap · Post by **Recap** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:18 am

PaCrappa wrote:Why would a game that consists of a small number of polygons over bland 2D backgrounds with a couple of bland 2D sprites need to be dummied down to be ported to the PS2?

Shit, that's the game that should get the full modern remake treatment. I like to play RSG, but man it looks like ass compared to something like, well, any Naomi shooter.

Pa

Oh, c'mon, are you the Pa who appreciated Doremi Fantasy and depreciated Quake as much as I do? There's not a single NAOMI game with the art, appeal and quality of RS visuals. Not even Ikaruga. It's one of those games which shows that you don't need filters and a high polygon rate to get nice 3D effects. Altering this game in any form would be an intolerable abomination. And you know it.

Cthulhu · Post by **Cthulhu** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:25 am

sethsez wrote:Fuck systems. I play games.

Well said. Eloquent and gets the point across.

As for the future Sega Ages games... there hasn't been a "pure" port yet. They're all changed, so I don't expect to see any show up in an unaltered state. Whether they'll turn out to be good or not remains to be seen.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:30 am

Recap wrote:Altering this game in any form would be an intolerable abomination.

Genocide is an intolerable abomination. Altering the graphics of Radiant Silvergun would be unfortunate.

azmun · Post by **azmun** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:35 am

Recap wrote:There's not a single NAOMI game with the art, appeal and quality of RS visuals. Not even Ikaruga. It's one of those games which shows that you don't need filters and a high polygon rate to get nice 3D effects. Altering this game in any form would be an intolerable abomination. And you know it.

This has always been the dilemma of recent collections/compilations/remakes. Make it as close to the original as possible, and you don't get the attention of today's casual gamers. Change and make "improvements" with the graphics, sound/music and perhaps even gameplay and you alienate the purists. Either way, you have to make a compromise. Not unless you make two versions: one original and one arranged.

Recap · Post by **Recap** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:37 am

sethsez wrote:
Recap wrote:Altering this game in any form would be an intolerable abomination.
Genocide is an intolerable abomination. Altering the graphics of Radiant Silvergun would be unfortunate.

Demagogic. I was discussing games.

Recap · Post by **Recap** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:42 am

azmun wrote: This has always been the dilemma of recent collections/compilations/remakes. Make it as close to the original as possible, and you don't get the attention of today's casual gamers.

Nah. That's a fallacy. Game developers want to believe that since they just don't want to put the effort on 2D art anymore. I know lots of "casual gamers" who just play MAME. Or the GBA.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:01 am

Why would they need to put any effort into the art of an emulated compilation? Hell, even a port doesn't require anything to be re-drawn at all.

Recap · Post by **Recap** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:07 am

sethsez wrote:Why would they need to put any effort into the art of an emulated compilation? Hell, even a port doesn't require anything to be re-drawn at all.

Say that to Mihara. Maybe you can illuminate him on how to port Ketsui to the PS2. 3D remakes were a commercial fiasco most of the times, anyways.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:22 am

I'm lost.

You say game developers don't want to put effort into 2D art. But a port of a 2D game doesn't require them to put effort into 2D art. If they add filters or make the game 3D or do an overhaul of the engine, none of these have anything to do with the effort required in creating 2D art.

Recap · Post by **Recap** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:31 am

sethsez wrote:I'm lost.

You say game developers don't want to put effort into 2D art. But a port of a 2D game doesn't require them to put effort into 2D art. If they add filters or make the game 3D or do an overhaul of the engine, none of these have anything to do with the effort required in creating 2D art.

A (good) port of a 2D game does require redrawing in order to avoid resolution issues, for a start. That's harder and more expensive than doing a crappy 3D remake. And it's also a matter of miseducation. Make the people forget about 2D art and there won't be anybody asking for it in a few years.

jp · Post by jp » Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:05 am

llabnip wrote:
jp wrote:I'm not all that worried about them porting Saturn games...
Given that I've got a collection that would rival even yours,

*looks at 2 Hitachi Navi GPS HiSaturns... chuckles*

I'm not worried either... but the PS2 continues to cut into the Saturn exclsuives (with no end in sight) as well as provide a ton of its own exclusives (not to mention the Genesis and Dreamcast games that have jumped ship - Sonics, Street Fighter 3rd Strike, KOF2k+, now Treasure's Megadrive games, etc.).

What "exclusives"? Panzer Dragoon was on PC and Xbox, Galaxy Force II mehbe, Dragon Force I and II possibly, but both of those games are stupidly boring after 5 hours of pouring over the stupid general reports and giving rewards. Last time I checked, most of the best titles on the Saturn were still exclusive and it doesn't look like they're going anywhere any time soon. Not unless Raizing/8ing and Tecno Soft rise up and start putting out compilations, which I really don't see happening. And aside from maybe NiGHTS in the future... I don't see Sega porting over anything of any real value in this "Sega Ages" bullshit. Last Bronx? A crappy Virtua Fighter 2? The original Panzer Dragoon? Almost all of these were far out shined by other games in similar genres. Sure, Sega is porting the "mainstream" like stuff, but so what? Thats the shit that made the Genesis and Dreamcast great, not the Saturn.

I heard the Dragon Force double pack is coming for the PS2 (if it's not out already). More will follow.

Dragon Force was boring as shit and is one of the most overrated Saturn games ever.

Is it really all that unthinkable that Battle Garegga will appear on a retro pack for the PS3? Or Radiant Silvergun ported for the first time? I think it's only a matter of time.

Where the fuck is Battle Garegga going to come from? An extra on the Ibara port? And even if it does, it won't be half the game the Saturn version and all its extras was. And Radiant Silvergun? Yeah, Treasure themselves and ESP have been REAL big into porting lately... or in their entire career. The Genesis Treasure games are getting ported because Sega owned the rights to those games... and Sega can no longer make anything worth a shit, so obviously they, like Capcom, have to revert to porting shit. Its pathetic really.

There will be a point when the PS3 not only has a ton of its own great games, but all the games for the PS2, PS1 and many of the better games from systems (Dreamcast, Saturn, Genesis and SMS) and arcade boards from years past...

Lets wait and actually see the PS3 first hmm?

These ports - for better or worse - do depreciate the impact of the Saturn...

The Psikyo packs? Most of that shit was on the PS1 to begin with. Shienryu was on the PS1 as well. I don't see how porting games to the PS2 that already had ports on the PS1 really hurts the Saturn's library. Where's all the quirky off the wall shit that made the Saturn great in this port library? Astal? Astra Superstars? Super Tempo? Or the damn cool shit that next to no one even knows about like Taromaru or Assault Suit Leynos 2? Its just not happening. More times than not the stuff getting ported is the same typical popular shit thats already on several systems (including the PS1), so I'm not seeing the "damage".

One of the things I love about the Saturn are the tons of great games in generes that I enjoy that were only done for that system.

And a majority of those games are still exclusive...

There was a time, not long ago, when you simply couldn't recommend a better machine for shooters or fighters. Those days are gone.

Only if you think quantity >>>>>>> quality, and in a big fucking way. I'd rather have the Real Bout Fatal Fury games and Sam Sho II (wasn't on the Saturn, I know) and III than V. I'd rather play shit like Pocket Fighters, the entire Street Fighter Alpha series in superior form, X-Men vs. Street Fighter, or Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter than the "Super move fest" bullshit we get now. As far as shmups go, unless you just have your head up Cave's ass there still isn't a better console... the top 5 Saturn shmups are still exclusive to it... I really don't see how it losing Metal Black as an exclusive is "destroying its library".

So while these Sega Ages ports and other collection packs (Psikyo, Taito, Capcom, Playmore/SNK, etc) don't worry me, they do diminish the shine and lure of owning a Saturn (or Dreamcast or Genesis).

Who in the fuck is going to sell their console so they can own lesser versions of games?

I don't blame Sega or the other companies for producing compilation packs...

Nor do I, because apparently they can't do anything original thats good anymore, so they'll just port the same shit over and over until we have the Sonic series coming out 5 generations from now and Street Fighter II on our Xbox50000000000. But you know what? If I want to play Sonic, I'll still get out Sonic Jam or my Genesis originals. If I want Street Fighter II, I'll just get out the Satty.

they are very popular and it does give a wider audience a chance to play these great games which may have otherwise languished in the back-catalogs of machines long since departed from this world.

They're popular? They sell like 10,000 copies every time... and most of that is from collectors/fans of the originals.

Gamers now don't give a shit about that stuff if they didn't get it way back when. Unless its Metal Slug 3 on Xbox... because for some reason that did extremely well...

At any rate, like I said, I don't really care. None of these "compilation packs" are going to feature versions that are superior to the originals. No port of Battle Garegga, Hyper Duel, or Radiant Silvergun is going to be more than half the game the Saturn versions were because, HEY, the Saturn versions had Saturn Modes.

Sega can port until they're blue in the fucking face... because aside from publishing From Software games, thats the only way they'll be putting anything out thats worth a damn. The only thing that upsets me about this business is that now there will be something missing from my "More than Complete" Panzer Dragoon collection. And fuck Sega for that.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:15 am

It's like someone got between a mother bear and its cub.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:31 am

JP, I love you. If we were gay, and in love, and in Masachussetts, I'll marry you and make you happy for the rest of your life.

jp · Post by jp » Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:11 am

sethsez wrote:It's like someone got between a mother bear and its cub.

I'm at the end of a 27 hour shift.

Having restraint vanished after hour 18.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:11 am

llabnip wrote:
jp wrote:I'm not all that worried about them porting Saturn games...
Given that I've got a collection that would rival even yours, I'm not worried either... but the PS2 continues to cut into the Saturn exclsuives (with no end in sight) as well as provide a ton of its own exclusives (not to mention the Genesis and Dreamcast games that have jumped ship - Sonics, Street Fighter 3rd Strike, KOF2k+, now Treasure's Megadrive games, etc.). I heard the Dragon Force double pack is coming for the PS2 (if it's not out already). More will follow. Is it really all that unthinkable that Battle Garegga will appear on a retro pack for the PS3? Or Radiant Silvergun ported for the first time? I think it's only a matter of time. There will be a point when the PS3 not only has a ton of its own great games, but all the games for the PS2, PS1 and many of the better games from systems (Dreamcast, Saturn, Genesis and SMS) and arcade boards from years past...

These ports - for better or worse - do depreciate the impact of the Saturn... One of the things I love about the Saturn are the tons of great games in generes that I enjoy that were only done for that system. There was a time, not long ago, when you simply couldn't recommend a better machine for shooters or fighters. Those days are gone. So while these Sega Ages ports and other collection packs (Psikyo, Taito, Capcom, Playmore/SNK, etc) don't worry me, they do diminish the shine and lure of owning a Saturn (or Dreamcast or Genesis). I don't blame Sega or the other companies for producing compilation packs... they are very popular and it does give a wider audience a chance to play these great games which may have otherwise languished in the back-catalogs of machines long since departed from this world.

IMO, that's like saying that the Sonic Collections for the Game Cube depreciate the Genesis, and make owning one a waste of money. They don't; there's still plenty of gaming goodness on that console. Same with the Saturn, there are plenty of great shmups, and non-shmups, that will most likely never see the light of day on the PS2. JP is right; the Saturn still has the best, and it's not going anywhere.

However, I hardly think Sega can't put out anything but shit anymore. Watch this video and tell me that Sega's completely hopeless:

http://www.xboxyde.com/leech_1399_en.html

Just because they port their older stuff, that doesn't mean a damn thing, IMO. Midway, Capcom, they're all porting their old stuff, and that doesn't mean that they're on the verge of collapse. I'd STILL rather buy a domestically developed Sega game then a domestic game from a lot of other developers.

PaCrappa · Post by **PaCrappa** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:49 am

Recap wrote:Oh, c'mon, are you the Pa who appreciated Doremi Fantasy and depreciated Quake as much as I do? There's not a single NAOMI game with the art, appeal and quality of RS visuals. Not even Ikaruga. It's one of those games which shows that you don't need filters and a high polygon rate to get nice 3D effects. Altering this game in any form would be an intolerable abomination. And you know it.

Oh, I'm the same guy and despite my razzing on you at TFP, I generally agree with you on issues of real lo-res and RGB and DoReMi and suchlike. However, I'm not that excited by RSG and one of my issues with it is the crappy 32 bit 3D. Even the best looking 3D titles on Ps1 and especially Saturn just look crummy to me. I can't help it. But Ikaruga, Shiki II, Psyv II, Gunspike, GW2 all look a hell of a lot better than RSG. And another thing that adds fuel to my point is that I like both PC Genjin and Fantasy Zone remakes better than their respective originals, which I have been playing for god knows how long. So I know great things can be done if these remakes are given the proper attention. Is it likely that any game mentioned in this thread that may receive the remake treatment will receive special care as well? HA! I'm not deluding myself.

I just like what I like and am not bound by dogmatic adherance to one graphical style.

Still the same,
Pa

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:35 am

I'd rather play shit like Pocket Fighters, the entire Street Fighter Alpha series in superior form, X-Men vs. Street Fighter, or Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter than the "Super move fest" bullshit we get now.

c'mon man, the entire vs. series is horrible. Street Fighter Alpha 2 is better on PS, especially played on PS2 to quicken the loadtimes. And Alpha 3 is arguably better on PS as well...worse graphics, but the sound is far better.

That's the major problem with the Saturn, sound effects being downsampled.

At any rate, I'd love it if Garegga got ported to PS2 from the arcade version. It wouldn't have loadtimes like the Saturn one does. The arrange soundtrack on the Saturn version is pretty bad anyways. In the likely event that doesn't happen, I'll just keep playing it on MAME. I wouldn't mind paying for it, but the loads are fucking awful and no one I know likes shooters anyways, so no point in getting it for co-op play.

All this bullshit about consoles is dumb. Just find games you like and get them on the console with the best port.