be compareable to an arcade monitor...am I wrong or are some of them made by the same company?
only reason I asked is because I was in a tournament store gamestop and they had a few of these...the picture was amazing. some of them seem a little pricey though.
here's 2 links...one in particular is the one I saw and another is for all of the models.
http://www.necdisplay.com/Products/Prod ... 309a636738 one in gamestop
http://www.necdisplay.com/Products/StoreFront/ all
would any of these monitors...
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astro city ninja
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Re: would any of these monitors...
NEC and Eizo make the best LCD monitors out there.
The 2690Wuxi² in particular is a great monitor (and so is it's successor, the 2690Wuxi³), **BUT** they've all got a permanent input lag of 2.5 to 3 frames, which can be very noticeable when you come from gaming on a CRT.
My desktop setup consists of three NEC 2180UX (3x 21.3" with 4800x1200 added resolution). The 2180UX are lagfree. I wanted to replace them some time back, but was not able to find anything with compareable quality without massive added input lag.
There's one (and I really mean it, ONE) other monitor out there which has compareable quality (same IPS display) and with only a single frame of input lag (16ms), it's the LG W2600HP (also 26"). It's half the price of the NEC, but it's incredibly hard to find. LG says it's still on sale, but most stores I checked only carry the TN version of the display (W2600H instead of W2600HP).
The 2690Wuxi² in particular is a great monitor (and so is it's successor, the 2690Wuxi³), **BUT** they've all got a permanent input lag of 2.5 to 3 frames, which can be very noticeable when you come from gaming on a CRT.
My desktop setup consists of three NEC 2180UX (3x 21.3" with 4800x1200 added resolution). The 2180UX are lagfree. I wanted to replace them some time back, but was not able to find anything with compareable quality without massive added input lag.
There's one (and I really mean it, ONE) other monitor out there which has compareable quality (same IPS display) and with only a single frame of input lag (16ms), it's the LG W2600HP (also 26"). It's half the price of the NEC, but it's incredibly hard to find. LG says it's still on sale, but most stores I checked only carry the TN version of the display (W2600H instead of W2600HP).
Re: would any of these monitors...
No, they will not. Aside from not having scanlines or being low- or medium- rez, (i.e. being really nothing at all like an arcade monitor) there's other issues to think about. Arcade monitors are fast and support a relatively small number of colors compared to monitors for video or photography production. The ones you list may or may not be acceptable for gaming depending on their particular specifications. I would suggest a different model: I recently reviewed the Planar PX2611W (and edited it just now), which has great color and is fast (reportedly only half a frame before the image shows up; it's faster than the TN screen in my gaming laptop), but it blurs a bit, possibly enough to be a distraction. That one is also only $776.
The MultiSync name is a bit of a misnomer at this point; originally the name referred to professional CRTs that accept a wide range of resolutions. I suppose the brand name is meant to be synonymous with "good image quality" but lots of monitors use the brand. The NEC MultiSync FE700+ I picked up just a few weeks ago seems like a good performer for an office CRT (circa 2001 or so) and has a great flat screen, but it has a low 5:4 resolution and is probably not anything close to being "wide gamut" with only so-so colors. However, it is currently my choice for playing arcade games upscaled by the XRGB-2. One bonus of picking up *high-end* MultiSync monitors is that they should come with a colorimeter (check the contents list) if you need to make the colors more accurate, though keep in mind that the readings will be different across the screen (if you need a colorimeter and calibrated colors, you will do more reading on that subject and pay more for the extras; otherwise it's a waste of money).
General issues with LCD monitors:
Blurring (i.e. residue of previous frames in the current image) in LCD monitors doesn't seem very well controlled compared to most CRTs. The old phosphors hit by the electrons in each scanline did have a short period where they would hold part of an image, mainly in highlights I think since those brighter spots got more energy compared to dark areas. With LCDs, pixels have to twist back and forth between colors so you see trails even in dark colors and that seems a bit more distracting, though with CRTs point lights tended to create short trails in dark areas, in my experience, but not generally.
More importantly for gaming, LCD monitors generally have some extra processing hardware to improve picture quality, and that leads to the image coming out a bit later. This is why many LCD TVs have a "gaming mode" that disables some of that extra processing to get the image out on the screen faster. Manufacturers don't measure or advertise input lag, so it's a crapshoot to figure it out.
One other issue is dot pitch. Remember that useless metric? It used to be said that smaller was better, but squeezing a huge number of pixels into a small space means they are smaller, and that can be tough on the eyes. The Planar has a "pixel pitch" of 0.286 mm, a bit higher than most screens, but I find it pretty comfortable. Your mileage may vary on this one.
These two problems can't be measured with one measurement that applies for the left and right side of the screens, from what I have seen.
Those issues aside, there are some good LCD monitors out there that have excellent picture quality for reading text, doing critical color work (photography, preprint color adjustment, etc) and which also are pretty decent at gaming, as I have found with the Planar. It works brilliantly with MAME and for twitch action shooters like Quake III, so who cares about grungy modern FPSes?
The MultiSync name is a bit of a misnomer at this point; originally the name referred to professional CRTs that accept a wide range of resolutions. I suppose the brand name is meant to be synonymous with "good image quality" but lots of monitors use the brand. The NEC MultiSync FE700+ I picked up just a few weeks ago seems like a good performer for an office CRT (circa 2001 or so) and has a great flat screen, but it has a low 5:4 resolution and is probably not anything close to being "wide gamut" with only so-so colors. However, it is currently my choice for playing arcade games upscaled by the XRGB-2. One bonus of picking up *high-end* MultiSync monitors is that they should come with a colorimeter (check the contents list) if you need to make the colors more accurate, though keep in mind that the readings will be different across the screen (if you need a colorimeter and calibrated colors, you will do more reading on that subject and pay more for the extras; otherwise it's a waste of money).
General issues with LCD monitors:
Blurring (i.e. residue of previous frames in the current image) in LCD monitors doesn't seem very well controlled compared to most CRTs. The old phosphors hit by the electrons in each scanline did have a short period where they would hold part of an image, mainly in highlights I think since those brighter spots got more energy compared to dark areas. With LCDs, pixels have to twist back and forth between colors so you see trails even in dark colors and that seems a bit more distracting, though with CRTs point lights tended to create short trails in dark areas, in my experience, but not generally.
More importantly for gaming, LCD monitors generally have some extra processing hardware to improve picture quality, and that leads to the image coming out a bit later. This is why many LCD TVs have a "gaming mode" that disables some of that extra processing to get the image out on the screen faster. Manufacturers don't measure or advertise input lag, so it's a crapshoot to figure it out.
One other issue is dot pitch. Remember that useless metric? It used to be said that smaller was better, but squeezing a huge number of pixels into a small space means they are smaller, and that can be tough on the eyes. The Planar has a "pixel pitch" of 0.286 mm, a bit higher than most screens, but I find it pretty comfortable. Your mileage may vary on this one.
These two problems can't be measured with one measurement that applies for the left and right side of the screens, from what I have seen.
Those issues aside, there are some good LCD monitors out there that have excellent picture quality for reading text, doing critical color work (photography, preprint color adjustment, etc) and which also are pretty decent at gaming, as I have found with the Planar. It works brilliantly with MAME and for twitch action shooters like Quake III, so who cares about grungy modern FPSes?
The Planar I wrote up the other day is pretty damn near lagfree in my experience, if not in reality. I haven't seen any hard figures but, as you saw in my (unfortunately overly long) topic about the monitor, it's faster than at least one "gaming" TN panel; I've seen it written that it's about a half-frame of lag. I haven't put it next to any CRTs (which would be tough; I would have to be careful not to introduce any factors that force it to process the image more than necessary, i.e. stretching the image). I also can't find a full-size TFT Central article about it, but this is their little blurb from the TFT Selector result:Fudoh wrote:There's one (and I really mean it, ONE) other monitor out there which has compareable quality (same IPS display) and with only a single frame of input lag (16ms), it's the LG W2600HP (also 26"). It's half the price of the NEC, but it's incredibly hard to find. LG says it's still on sale, but most stores I checked only carry the TN version of the display (W2600H instead of W2600HP).
When I simply change the "price range" from 200-300 pounds to 1000+ pounds, I get a bunch of panels that are obviously geared mainly towards color more than speed; not the specific panels you've mentioned, but ones like the Dell 2709WFP, 3008WFP, Samsung SM305T, Viewsonic VP2655wb. Only the Viewsonic doesn't have the following caveat:* Limited worldwide availability, not in UK, but available in US
* 5ms G2G LG.Philips H-IPS (LM260WU1) panel
* Large screen size and high 1920 x 1200 resolution. Great for office work
* Wide viewing angles, and good colour depth and accuracy
* Still remains at same resolution as 23 / 24 inch models, so larger pixel pitch
* Reportedly minimal input lag and good responsiveness
* Limted interface options with only DVI (HDCP supported) and VGA
(The 2709WFP changes the bit to AS-IPS).Resolution and size perhaps a problem for some games. Not as fast as some modern TN and AS-IPS panels, but many people find it adeqate for average gaming
Re: would any of these monitors...
sounds great. I would give it a try if it was to be found anywhere in Germany over here.The Planar I wrote up the other day is pretty damn near lagfree in my experience, if not in reality.
Re: would any of these monitors...
The only problem I'm seeing is the blur, but that was pretty much a given with LCDs before this one anyway. It may well be that since all the other aspects of the PX2611W are pretty good that I'm just overreacting to this one. The 5ms "maximum response time" spec is certainly better than the SyncMaster 204B I used to use, but I'm finding it slightly distracting at times. Anyway, I suppose this means some more careful testing is in order.
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astro city ninja
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Re: would any of these monitors...
dang thanks for all the info.
I'm on the fence about buying a tv that is just a 720p run of the mill toshiba...it does have gaming mode too. or a computer monitor. I just noticed how pretty the gamestop ones were and figured I would ask.
the other monitor I was looking at are the ones they use to compete in the fighting game competition evo. this one here
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... -_-Product I'm just not sure on how nice the picture is or if there will be any issues with tateing the screen...is only for console games and maybe a mame setup... any thoughts
I'm on the fence about buying a tv that is just a 720p run of the mill toshiba...it does have gaming mode too. or a computer monitor. I just noticed how pretty the gamestop ones were and figured I would ask.
the other monitor I was looking at are the ones they use to compete in the fighting game competition evo. this one here
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... -_-Product I'm just not sure on how nice the picture is or if there will be any issues with tateing the screen...is only for console games and maybe a mame setup... any thoughts
Re: would any of these monitors...
If you can avoid it, you don't want to try turning any cheap LCD monitors (with TN or Twisted Nematic) technology in them. They have a limited viewing angle which is usually angled so that viewing them head-on when rotated makes the colors uneven from side to side. The Planar monitor I'm using has a nearly 180 degree viewing angle, but the manual recommends not turning it on its side to prevent overheating. If you're thinking about playing some games from MAME on a monitor or TV, probably your best bet is just to get a larger set, or get closer, or get a dedicated CRT for games you want tate for.
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astro city ninja
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Re: would any of these monitors...
wow I didn't know that. I didn't think turning it would be an issue especially for overheating. thing that sucks is, I don't want to use a crt because xbox 360 looks like hell on it sometimes the text is even hard to read and I like the clear crisp image of an lcd
how about a real arcade type monitor...are there any that aren't too expensive that produce high definition not like 1080 p, but at least the 720p that most xbox games are run on. where can you buy them?
are they a pain in the butt to maintain, if at all you need to maintain them? I know you can hook up a 360 to them but how about a ps2? is it expensive to do so? and what is needed?
how about a real arcade type monitor...are there any that aren't too expensive that produce high definition not like 1080 p, but at least the 720p that most xbox games are run on. where can you buy them?
are they a pain in the butt to maintain, if at all you need to maintain them? I know you can hook up a 360 to them but how about a ps2? is it expensive to do so? and what is needed?
Re: would any of these monitors...
Well, I'm not sure what you want this monitor to play with, which is the only way I could hope to point you towards a recommendation. Classic console, arcade, PC, HD console..?
There are threads in the Hardware Forum for current console -> arcade monitor converters; basically you buy a JAMMA (standard) arcade cabinet (lots of space) and plug in through the connector. Of course there's not many, if any, still in production...I saw some manufacturer (HAPP Controls I think) selling some new, but they may be old stock.
What I do is use LCDs for modern stuff (PC games but that's another story) and upscale RGB video to a CRT monitor with the XRGB-2 upscaler. There are plenty of other routes you can take as well.
What it comes down to is what you're going to use this other monitor for and also how much money ya got. If you have console games, a good tube television will do. If you have arcade boards (or want to start to buy them) a cabinet is the best setup for playing and not too expensive, though I find my setup works alright (very easy to set up though I have to pull out the monitor) and is more flexible (but also more expensive).
There are threads in the Hardware Forum for current console -> arcade monitor converters; basically you buy a JAMMA (standard) arcade cabinet (lots of space) and plug in through the connector. Of course there's not many, if any, still in production...I saw some manufacturer (HAPP Controls I think) selling some new, but they may be old stock.
What I do is use LCDs for modern stuff (PC games but that's another story) and upscale RGB video to a CRT monitor with the XRGB-2 upscaler. There are plenty of other routes you can take as well.
What it comes down to is what you're going to use this other monitor for and also how much money ya got. If you have console games, a good tube television will do. If you have arcade boards (or want to start to buy them) a cabinet is the best setup for playing and not too expensive, though I find my setup works alright (very easy to set up though I have to pull out the monitor) and is more flexible (but also more expensive).
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astro city ninja
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Re: would any of these monitors...
hm. I'm basically going to construct an arcade cabinet out of mdf that will house an xbox 360, a ps2, a wii, and possibly a pc for mame and other emulators.
I really want a true arcade cabinet but like I said, until I have the know how, I'm gonna hold off.
but I was just thinking about the best option for a monitor whether it be an lcd tv, lcd monitor, or arcade crt.
my idea was to have one of the lighter lcd's attatched to a rotating tv mount so that I could simply pull the tv out, and tate for shooters, and back for normal games. I wouldn't be able to do this easily with a normal crt tv so that's why I figured I would go with a lighter design. only reason I would sacrifice the ease of use is because I know nothing beats having a real arcade monitor for these games.
I don't play for more than maybe 2 hours at the very most at a time. I don't get much time due to work so I'm not sure how much the overheating would come into play. and I just want to get something that performs well with a really nice picture. having seen a few games run off of a pc monitor, I think they look nicer than a tv and some of them have little to no lag unlike a tv which is another issue.
I really want a true arcade cabinet but like I said, until I have the know how, I'm gonna hold off.
but I was just thinking about the best option for a monitor whether it be an lcd tv, lcd monitor, or arcade crt.
my idea was to have one of the lighter lcd's attatched to a rotating tv mount so that I could simply pull the tv out, and tate for shooters, and back for normal games. I wouldn't be able to do this easily with a normal crt tv so that's why I figured I would go with a lighter design. only reason I would sacrifice the ease of use is because I know nothing beats having a real arcade monitor for these games.
I don't play for more than maybe 2 hours at the very most at a time. I don't get much time due to work so I'm not sure how much the overheating would come into play. and I just want to get something that performs well with a really nice picture. having seen a few games run off of a pc monitor, I think they look nicer than a tv and some of them have little to no lag unlike a tv which is another issue.
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PC Engine Fan X!
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Re: would any of these monitors...
Pick up the cool book of "Project Arcade" by John St.Clair. It has some interesting DIY arcade cab projects that you can make using MDF particle wood. Even comes with a bonus CD-Rom disk as well. It even discusses the topic of pros and cons about going with a traditional CRT-based TV monitor, Happ Controls SVGA hybrid monitor, arcade CRT monitor & PC CRT-based monitor. The topic of pros & cons of both 4:3 & 16;9 format LCD-based PC monitors isn't discussed because it really wasn't widely in use when the "Project Arcade" book was published.
If you really want authentic arcade monitor aesthetics, go with a true low-res 15kHz CRT-based RGB monitor. The added benefit is that you'll have the scan-lines already in place & no lag timing issues to contend with either. The NEC XM-29 or the XM-29 Plus CRT-based RGB monitors would be a very good canidate for playing your favorite consoles and with Mame emu. Or a Sony PVM based CTR-based RGB monitor would make for a fine choice.
PC Engine Fan X! ^_~
If you really want authentic arcade monitor aesthetics, go with a true low-res 15kHz CRT-based RGB monitor. The added benefit is that you'll have the scan-lines already in place & no lag timing issues to contend with either. The NEC XM-29 or the XM-29 Plus CRT-based RGB monitors would be a very good canidate for playing your favorite consoles and with Mame emu. Or a Sony PVM based CTR-based RGB monitor would make for a fine choice.
PC Engine Fan X! ^_~
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astro city ninja
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Re: would any of these monitors...
awesome, I have been searching for some type of do it yourself book and will definately check that out. also, thanks for the reccomendations 
I'm getting confused on the resolutions. I know they are different but wouldn't a 15khz monitor look like crap for a 360 game running in 720p? or am I wrong about that. would a 31khz monitor be more suitable/equivalent to that resolution?
this stuff is so confusing thank you all for your patience!
I'm getting confused on the resolutions. I know they are different but wouldn't a 15khz monitor look like crap for a 360 game running in 720p? or am I wrong about that. would a 31khz monitor be more suitable/equivalent to that resolution?
this stuff is so confusing thank you all for your patience!
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astro city ninja
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Re: would any of these monitors...
that book is going for 200 bucks new on amazon and 50 used? holy moly! that seem about right?
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PC Engine Fan X!
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Re: would any of these monitors...
Considering that "Arcade Project" book was published back in 2004, it is out of print. Hence the crazy prices it fetches nowdays. The sellers asking $200 for a copy, they ain't gonna get that kind of $$$ anyways. I bought my copy from my local Barnes and Noble bookstore for $29.99 + tax a few years back. Eventually, I wised up and concluded that it would be better to get a candy cab instead of a DIY arcade cab project, a Taito Egret 2 for it's ease of tate with just one hand (is Jamma standard to begin with).
The Xbox 360 would be running in 480i resolution if you use a low-res 15khz arcade monitor and fellow shmupper viletim's awesomely built "Scart to Jamma" adapter. You'd just need to get some custom-made Japanese 21-pin RGB cables made for all your favorite gaming consoles + get all the necessary gaming controllers pad-hacked and you're good to go. Same 480i screen resolution would apply to the PS2 and Dreamcast console platforms as well if you go this particular route.
Or you could go with a tri-sync arcade monitor setup that'll accept all three sync signal formats: 15kHz, 24kHz and 31khz. Then you'd be able to play your Xbox 360 games in 480p via VGA input (instead of 480i with the above listed console to Jamma setup). If you go with a dual sync 29" Nanao arcade monitor (15kHz & 24kHz) and decide to go with upgrading to a tri-sync one (i.e. -- a tri-sync Wei-Ya monitor chassis PCB), you will lose the sharpness and clarity afforded by using 15kHz resolution format.
PC Engine Fan X! ^_~
The Xbox 360 would be running in 480i resolution if you use a low-res 15khz arcade monitor and fellow shmupper viletim's awesomely built "Scart to Jamma" adapter. You'd just need to get some custom-made Japanese 21-pin RGB cables made for all your favorite gaming consoles + get all the necessary gaming controllers pad-hacked and you're good to go. Same 480i screen resolution would apply to the PS2 and Dreamcast console platforms as well if you go this particular route.
Or you could go with a tri-sync arcade monitor setup that'll accept all three sync signal formats: 15kHz, 24kHz and 31khz. Then you'd be able to play your Xbox 360 games in 480p via VGA input (instead of 480i with the above listed console to Jamma setup). If you go with a dual sync 29" Nanao arcade monitor (15kHz & 24kHz) and decide to go with upgrading to a tri-sync one (i.e. -- a tri-sync Wei-Ya monitor chassis PCB), you will lose the sharpness and clarity afforded by using 15kHz resolution format.
PC Engine Fan X! ^_~
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astro city ninja
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Re: would any of these monitors...
ah, so 31 khz is only 480p? dang...since I would predominantly be playing 360 games, mushi, espgaluda, and ssfiv and the lot of shooters for my ps2, do you think I might be better off just getting the tv? I wasn't planning on getting any pcb's for a loooong time since I know I have a lot of research to do before I take that plunge.
the other thing is its damn near impossible to find anyone selling a candy cab where I'm at (massachusetts). I've been searching everywhere and the only way it seems feasible is to buy one and have it shipped which is at least 1200 bucks total...not what I want to spend right now.
I'm gonna keep searching for that book too. seems like a really good read even if I don't end up building a cab myself.
the other thing is its damn near impossible to find anyone selling a candy cab where I'm at (massachusetts). I've been searching everywhere and the only way it seems feasible is to buy one and have it shipped which is at least 1200 bucks total...not what I want to spend right now.
I'm gonna keep searching for that book too. seems like a really good read even if I don't end up building a cab myself.