Whatever happened to the Ketsui Dump?

[orange]

the 'emulation scene' is so fucking stupid

[lgb]

I'd hate to take money away from one of the finest shmup producing companies on the planet.

CAVE's actual arcade operations count for a lot less than you'd think

[roker]

I'd hate to take money away from one of the finest shmup producing companies on the planet.

CAVE's actual arcade operations count for a lot less than you'd think

Imagine you're running Aksys and you're faced with localizing and marketing a game that's already "freely" available on the internet, wouldn't you think twice?

Besides, you're making it like these ports give them NOTHING in return.

Why screw them out of that money? I like the extras they give you with ports. It's nice, even if they're not 100% faithful reproductions (I'll take 90-95%).

At the time we were trying to get Ketsui dumped, there wasn't an announcement regarding a port. The only people whining at that time were collectors (PCBs are like stock prices sometimes).

[Evrain]

the 'emulation scene' is so fucking stupid

I disagree with that: I still respect MAME devs and during my career as a game journalist I got in touch with countless developers alike, from licensed ones (for Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, etc) to emu authors (dating back to UltraHLE) and among the boastful ones are also nice people willing to help and talk, willing to teach even. Unfortunately I disagree with this trend of MAME: seeing how SH3 games are just too new no matter how you look at them, those shouldn't even be in the hands of MAMEdev, since they uphold the "no piracy" rule so much, especially when it comes to CAVE. I have nothing against something as precious as a Ketsui dump circulating among a select few (for sprite and sound ripping, code scavenging, etc) but when it comes as a reason to tease others... well, that is not even MAME. Heck it can even be personal piracy, to some extent

What one should be really pissed at is the fact that Ketsui and Mushihimesama should have been dumped a long time ago, AND the PGM driver fixed - as of now, whilst Guru and Luca are fapping over their latest CAVE gold nuggets, the driver is really an insane trash heap worth of hacks. It took them YEARS to fix certain games.... oh yes, but now we can play Ikaruga and Senko no Ronde! Who cares about the oldies being "Not Working"! (/sarcasm)
Once again, nothing of this would ever happen if Guru wasn't the only one out there - well, he is NOT the only one out there, I know of at least four other people, but as one of them said "no one is going to give out a $1000 piece of hardware for me to desolder the crap out of it".

One last thing though: the game would run extremely slowly on any recent computer, unless taking the piracy approach and coding a fully optimized custom emulator for the thing; then, why just not leaving CAVE alone and, as I said focusing on the tons of old drivers? I don't get it, I had to wait a decade before seeing that old glory of my childhood named Shooting Master emulated properly!

@IGB: lately I've added to Wikipedia the storylines for the entire DonPachi series as well as Ketsui's and Mushihimesama; seeing what CAVE can come up with, why they just don't bite the bullet and write a full-fledged story driven shooter is beyong me. And to think they could do like with SMT - it would come out quite the delicious treat, anybody remembers that little jewel of Jets 'n Guns?

[cools]

It's always nice to see the effort and time people invest in something purely for the love of it get so thoroughly slagged off.

[Jockel]

Are you just telling me we could have PGM emulation by now if they just weren't monkeying around all the time?
I was always under the impression that the security crap is so hard to crack and that would be the whole problem.

Let alone SH3.

[Evrain]

Are you just telling me we could have PGM emulation by now if they just weren't monkeying around all the time?
I was always under the impression that the security crap is so hard to crack and that would be the whole problem.

Let alone SH3.

I think I already wrote in another thread that the FBA Team offered to redump and trojan Bee Storm if a PGM cart was sent to them - and mind you, it would be returned in a perfectly working condition - and with that the game would immediately skip to the "fully emulated" status, and it could provide data to blackbox the ARM7 for newer CAVE games. Likewise, yes, I think right now we would have comprehensive PGM emulation - new ROMs bring about new reasons to work on the driver, and new people tearing it apart. And, obviously, more people willing to donate to a decapping project.
Just look at the games that are emulated right now, namely the Knights of Valor series and little else - most of the work is ElSemi's (which is a boastful little @#ç°*"! to begin with) and so hackish it's gross, I think he just emulated his favourite bunch of titles and that's it; comparatively, the guys at FBA are much more prolific at studying the hardware, no wonder they are a step ahead of MAME. ElSemi left the driver to its destiny, and it has NOT been touched ever since.

By now, were the games released and interest in the driver picked (and believe me, a CAVE game is a guaranteed success at that! ) we would have full emulation, to the point of being just a "plug and play" matter, as IQ_132 pointed out in a mail he sent to me, as soon as the ARM7 for a particular board was decapped (think having ketsui dumped and emulated, but lacking the protection bits, the bits get dumped, you just drop the file into the romset and BAM, it works).

[lgb]

Imagine you're running Aksys and you're faced with localizing and marketing a game that's already "freely" available on the internet, wouldn't you think twice?

what

Besides, you're making it like these ports give them NOTHING in return.

of course they get something, but they don't depend on it

At the time we were trying to get Ketsui dumped, there wasn't an announcement regarding a port. The only people whining at that time were collectors (PCBs are like stock prices sometimes).

uuhh, not really! when a port comes out, the price does not rise or fall dramatically. same if it's suddenly emulated.

[Jockel]

Are you just telling me we could have PGM emulation by now if they just weren't monkeying around all the time?
I was always under the impression that the security crap is so hard to crack and that would be the whole problem.

Let alone SH3.

I think I already wrote in another thread that the FBA Team offered to redump and trojan Bee Storm if a PGM cart was sent to them - and mind you, it would be returned in a perfectly working condition - and with that the game would immediately skip to the "fully emulated" status, and it could provide data to blackbox the ARM7 for newer CAVE games. Likewise, yes, I think right now we would have comprehensive PGM emulation - new ROMs bring about new reasons to work on the driver, and new people tearing it apart. And, obviously, more people willing to donate to a decapping project.

What? I mean it's not like it's hard to get, quite some people around here have it.
Looks like someone should start a thread encouraging people to send their pcbs and PGM carts to the FBA devs ^_~

[emphatic]

Looks like someone should start a thread encouraging people to send their pcbs and PGM carts to the FBA devs ^_~

Let's start a thread about sending used panties to Guru. Panties used by the DeathSmiles cosplayers.

Edit: For dumping.

[Evrain]

Are you just telling me we could have PGM emulation by now if they just weren't monkeying around all the time?
I was always under the impression that the security crap is so hard to crack and that would be the whole problem.

Let alone SH3.

I think I already wrote in another thread that the FBA Team offered to redump and trojan Bee Storm if a PGM cart was sent to them - and mind you, it would be returned in a perfectly working condition - and with that the game would immediately skip to the "fully emulated" status, and it could provide data to blackbox the ARM7 for newer CAVE games. Likewise, yes, I think right now we would have comprehensive PGM emulation - new ROMs bring about new reasons to work on the driver, and new people tearing it apart. And, obviously, more people willing to donate to a decapping project.

What? I mean it's not like it's hard to get, quite some people around here have it.
Looks like someone should start a thread encouraging people to send their pcbs and PGM carts to the FBA devs ^_~

If everyone would donate a single board, in a month's time every CAVE PGM or generic PGM game would be dumped/added to FBA and a checklist for decapping ready (in that case, a fried or expendable board would be required though, decapping leaves the chip destroyed I think?), but as I wrote a dumper said once "no one is going to give out a $1000 piece of hardware for me to desolder the crap out of it" (I think emphatic was referring to this, am I correct?), that's the main obstacle - of course, Ketsui would need a reasonable but not yearly wait after the port release, just in case.

I wish too we could have Bee Storm playable

[Jockel]

I wish too we could have Bee Storm playable

Clearly you haven't played it yet
I am way more interested in the possibilities that might open up, read: Ketsui/DOJ/Galuda (are there any other PGM cave games? Mushihimesama and Ibara are SH3 IIRC).

[zakk]

I think I already wrote in another thread that the FBA Team offered to redump and trojan Bee Storm if a PGM cart was sent to them - and mind you, it would be returned in a perfectly working condition

You should point me in the right direction; I own such a cart...

[Dave_K.]

I think I already wrote in another thread that the FBA Team offered to redump and trojan Bee Storm if a PGM cart was sent to them - and mind you, it would be returned in a perfectly working condition

You should point me in the right direction; I own such a cart...

Yeah I'm finding this claim hard to believe considering Bee Storm is a $90 cart readily available from any Hong Kong reseller, and commonly traded on the forums. If this was true, it should have been fully emulated by now.

[Evrain]

I think I already wrote in another thread that the FBA Team offered to redump and trojan Bee Storm if a PGM cart was sent to them - and mind you, it would be returned in a perfectly working condition

You should point me in the right direction; I own such a cart...

Yeah I'm finding this claim hard to believe considering Bee Storm is a $90 cart readily available from any Hong Kong reseller, and commonly traded on the forums. If this was true, it should have been fully emulated by now.

I'm just reporting what was said to me, and quite frankly I believe IQ's claim to be true - DDP2 uses the IGS-027 ASIC chip which, as many who have tampered with MAME know, is fully trojanable with ElSemi's trojan. But then again, it's CAVE related and PGM related: you don't want Guru to suddenly dump and release something that has CAVE's trademark on it, do you? On the other hand, later (I'd say 2000/2001 and onward) games use the hellish IGS-027A we all know and hate.

That is a good point, however, ddp2 uses an external ARM7 rom, which should make dumping/trojaning the internal rom much easier.

That's what he said to me.

@Jockel: no I haven't played it. Yes I know it sucks. Yes, I want to play it because I'm a friggin' masochist and want to laugh at how much it sucks
IGS - what 5pb does, we already did.

EDIT: I already inquired about why it wasn't dumped and this was the answer:

I honestly don't know. I don't think DDP2 has enough interest from most people to be worth his time. Plus, if the internal arm7 was dumped, it would drop right into MAME/FBA/Nebula with no problem. Though that is true for several other games. Again, if you do find someone willing to part with a ddp2 cart (i imagine it can be returned in perfect working order afterwards), I know our dumper would be more than willing to trojan out the internal rom.

[Jockel]

Then goooooo Zakk!
And hopefully some day emulated versions of the holy cow a.k.a. Ketsui and Galuda / DOJ.
A man can dream.

[roker]

I just want someone to pick up the Ketsui port for a US release, then I can die peacefully (jk).

[Evrain]

I just want someone to pick up the Ketsui port for a US release, then I can die peacefully (jk).

I was considering hammering Aksys with mails requesting Ketsui and their games being region free - care to join?

[zakk]

Considering I don't pay attention to the FBA stuff at all, you really do need to point me at who/what/where, since I have no idea who any of these people are.

[Jockel]

I just want someone to pick up the Ketsui port for a US release, then I can die peacefully (jk).

I was considering hammering Aksys with mails requesting Ketsui and their games being region free - care to join?

Better buy the upcoming Deathsmiles port to show that some money can be made with publishing these games, because they're already aware that fans want Ketsui.

[Evrain]

I just want someone to pick up the Ketsui port for a US release, then I can die peacefully (jk).

I was considering hammering Aksys with mails requesting Ketsui and their games being region free - care to join?

Better buy the upcoming Deathsmiles port to show that some money can be made with publishing these games, because they're already aware that fans want Ketsui.

If it's region free, I'm in - one thing I hate about DRMs, they keep pirates out but they also keep freeloaders out! What's with this region locking crap?

@zakk: sent you a message.

[roker]

I just want someone to pick up the Ketsui port for a US release, then I can die peacefully (jk).

I was considering hammering Aksys with mails requesting Ketsui and their games being region free - care to join?

Like someone already said, the best way to send a message is to buy Death Smiles (which I plan on doing).

Then we can make a massive thread on their forums and convince them to localize it.

[mdsfx]

but how do we convince them to release more REGION-FREE games instead of localized versions?

[roker]

but how do we convince them to release more REGION-FREE games instead of localized versions?

now that there's a company releasing Death Smiles here and Cave hinting it may not be the only one in the works. You're better off trying to convince Aksys to keep it region-free, IMO

[PsikyoFan]

This thread cracks me up.

Guru set out to stir up a hornet's nest with ESP-II and Ibara and Luca just indulged him. IMHO it was retarded, but if you rise to it then you get what you deserve. Don't think for a minute that other MAME developers don't consider it inappropriate.

Which brings me to my second point: MAMEdev is a loosely-knit collection of developers. The ones that do the most (mostly mundane) work are quiet and rarely outspoken. Those that work on things likely to garner attention have also developed a thicker skin and in some cases a taste for outrageous comments. No one developer can really tell the others what to do with the exception of Aaron, and his interests are more on the architecture and long-term plans than individual systems anymore. The fact that most developers have their own personal sites rather than one unified site speaks volumes. To slag off MAMEdev as a whole is just plain disrespectful.

On the subject of DDP2 and PGM. You take your risk when you send something to Guru (or anyone). If you want it back, you better have agreed in advance a timeframe - Guru is known for his personality and the way he operates. To expect otherwise was naive - also things aren't getting decapped of late and these things can take time, especially if the interest isn't there - which is my final point: There's no-one contributing to MAME that really has an interest in PGM at this point other than third-parties further patching/hacking the protection on already-emulated games. Cave has attracted unwanted attention in the past, so it's not surprising that interest has waned. FBA on the other hand has a few younger developers who have cut their teeth on reproducing many of the drivers from MAME, using it as a reference or reverse-engineering it from scratch again for kicks. As a result they're presumably hungry to actually produce something new, and emulate something other than obscure CPS-1 bootlegs. As others have pointed out, aquiring a DDP2 is trivial and not exactly expensive - which shows you there's not really a lot of interest there but it's probably your best bet if you want to see something like Ketsui emulated.

Btw, I believe DDP2 is not as trivial as this thread hints at. IIRC (and this is from many years back), it didn't execute code from the external RAM, only the internal. So the trick (a switch and bait whilst the game is running) used to dump the ASIC from earlier games will not work even though it's the same part no. It needed decapping to be read out or the protection bit removed.

[Kubilak]

If i had contributed to TDE i would ask for the Ketsui board back.
He's had it for quite a long time now and since he didn't do what
was originally agreed, it is time i think those who paid for it
to get it back.

When the whole thing started, Guru did not say 'I won't return the board
because of side dumps'

When the whole thing started, Guru did not say 'I will not give you the dump'

He said 'Send me the board and i will do it'.

So disregarding his reluctance to send whatever dumps he made (if he made them)
to the board owners and his vague and conflicting replies and actions regarding
the subject, the fact remains that the ketsui board is NOT his property.

It was LENT to him for a particular purpose and if the TDE group asks for it
back, it should be sent back. There are NO excuses here (the whole awww it's CAVE
so i'm sorry i'm gonna have to hold on to it is laughable to say the least as well
as criminal). If he does not send back the board, then we are talking about
THEFT plain and simple.

[Teufel_in_Blau]

Wow, I'm seeing this thread coming back in 2012 and people still bitching about Guru and the lack of Ketsui in Mame.

[GaijinPunch]

the 'emulation scene' is so fucking stupid

It would be much more tolerable if everyone put more energy into getting a blow job every now and again.

[BulletMagnet]

It would be much more tolerable if everyone port more energy into getting a blow job every now and again.

Something tells me you've been picking up the slack for the rest of us for some time now.

[bcass]

At the time we were trying to get Ketsui dumped, there wasn't an announcement regarding a port. The only people whining at that time were collectors (PCBs are like stock prices sometimes).

uuhh, not really! when a port comes out, the price does not rise or fall dramatically. same if it's suddenly emulated.

http://page2.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/b112984329