Why shmups are such a niche genre

[clp]

YO MANG 3D IS SO OLD SKOOL YOO SHOULD TRY VIRTUAL RAELITY ITS A REAL "IMMERSIVE EGGSPERIENCE"

B/W

[Davey]

Holy shit, this thread is growing fast. Some people already covered what I was going to say as I was typing this. I apologize if any of my replies are redundant.

If that's the case, it was never the actual gameplay that attracted you in the first place, it was the atmosphere and immersion. That's fine, but why not play games from other genres that are better suited for that sort of thing instead of complaining about how shmups haven't catered to your tastes over time?

Except this isn't the case, the problem as that the gameplay was the problem with shooters in the first place because the game design itself was the result of hardware limitations, I'm saying that shooters (originally) were flawed designs from the outset because they didn't have the hardware power in those days to do more complicated gameplay (like Descent and Freespace 2). Japanese game developers probably could have done some interesting things with shooters if they played games like Freespace 1+2 or Descent 2 and remixed genre's into something that could rekindle interest in shooters in general.

Japanese developers have always had issues with innovation or remixing elements from other games. I think games like Ace combat 5/6 and HAWX are where most former shooter fans are today. I really enjoyed ace combat 5 a lot.

So basically, you're admitting that you never liked 2D shooter gameplay. Fair enough. People on this board do, and the companies that still make them are making them for people like us. Like I mentioned before, there aren't many of us, but there are enough to keep a few companies in business.

Games sell on players opinions of them, therefore when a game becomes niche it is because of the facts.

Throughout this thread people have been using the word "niche" as if it's a synonym for "failure." Niche just means it has a specific, narrow focus. A successful game within a small market segment is still successful.

This is why the shmup community is in such denial.

How are we in denial? We freely admit that even though we love these games, they aren't appealing to most people.

I thought they want to bring fun to the genre again and joy to more players.

No, most of us don't really care what other players are playing. We'd be happy if more people got into shmups, but we're not willing to water down the games to do so.

The community seems to think what they think is fun is the only thing that counts, rather then trying to bridge the gap. But the lack of money is proof that the insular community is the problem to begin with.

You're right, we are more concerned about playing games we like than figuring out how to change them so that everybody else likes them.

As for the lack of money, I think Cave is doing alright. And if they're not, it's probably due more to the downfall of arcades than their games specifically.

[Pirate1019]

As for the lack of money [...]

ZUN has enough money to remain inebriated for at least another year.

[Rob]

I feel like I'm a black man amongst racists.

.txt

I was a big shmup fan in the early console era but as a gamer I want to experience flying planes/spaceships in 3D with better graphics
...
a person like me who who played the fuck out of early shmups in the arcades.

Early console (Super Nintendo) vs. early arcades. Raiden Trad was amazing for its time.

[captpain]

The shmup community doesn't get it - games are about what we want to experience from our imaginations, not the abstract 2D meta-game of shmup land. Games are much more then the abstract meta game.

Could you possibly be a bigger idiot?

[captpain]

The community seems to think what they think is fun is the only thing that counts, rather then trying to bridge the gap.

Out of curiosity, why do you play video games? Are you really arguing for watering down a genre so that other people can have more fun, and you can have less? Here's a cool tip for you: what the community thinks is fun is the only thing that counts.

[Dragoforce]

This sums it all up quite good:

I don't like eating pickles. Therefore, pickles are broken, and anybody who likes eating pickles is also broken.

@shmupsorrow77. You clearly don't like shmups, ignore them. You like rail shooters and whatever genre Descent is. Leave it a that.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Hey, it's-a not me!

The community seems to think what they think is fun is the only thing that counts, rather then trying to bridge the gap.

[szycag]

Look how much better 3D made Defender (PS2 remake :p)

[JoshF]

I'd like to see Ace Combat do danmaku, just to see how superior superior 3D gameplay is.

[JoshF]

The shmup community doesn't get it - games are about what we want to experience from our imaginations, not the abstract 2D meta-game of shmup land. Games are much more then the abstract meta game.

Haha, you sound like a fag at a Phish concert. Tell us more about how we should understand the games you don't play.

[Udderdude]

Hey guys, don't feed the tr .. oh, too late.

[ColonelFatso]

Personally I wouldn't say no to another, more polished and varied Freelancer

Funny that you should mention that game and anal space-sims in the same paragraph, lol, it's the most watered-down space sim I've ever played.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Personally I wouldn't say no to another, more polished and varied Freelancer

Funny that you should mention that game and anal space-sims in the same paragraph, lol, it's the most watered-down space sim I've ever played.

I don't even think about it as a "sim" of any sort. "Diablo meets GTA in space" is more accurate description, except Freelancer isn't quite as good at what it does as Diablo and GTA are, at least in the single player mode (haven't played it online). That's what I'd like to see sorted out in a sequel. The point being, this kind of "space shooter" would be welcome, but it's not like 2D shoot 'em ups must evolve into something like that. It's just too late for shmups to "move on" in that direction. Let them be just 2D shoot 'em ups. Instead, Sony could put Omega Boost on the PSN. That'd make quite a few people happy, as the game is still bloody brilliant in it's own way.

[gs68]

You who likes shmups is 100 million times stupid than you think because you think shmups should stay 2D. Shmups aren't real games. Americans can't enjoy shmups and Japanese people are just stupid pussies.

[Taylor]

Hey guys, don't feed the tr .. oh, too late.

Unfortunately, you can't really tell with this thread.

[captpain]

Hey guys, don't feed the tr .. oh, too late.

Unfortunately, you can't really tell with this thread.

If someone's troll only serves to elicit reasonable disgust and straightforward explanations, then it's either a completely miserable troll or a gigantic idiot.

[toaplan_shmupfan]

Except this isn't the case, the problem as that the gameplay was the problem with shooters in the first place because the game design itself was the result of hardware limitations...

There are so many shooters that it's impossible just to say "the gameplay was the problem". *What* about the gameplay was the problem?

* Don't like the side perspective of horizontal shumps? Play the verticals with the overhead perspective.
* Don't like the verticals? Play the horizontals.
* Don't like verticals or horizontals? Try isometric, or arena, or tube shmups.
* Don't like multiple weapon changes? Many of the older ones had single weapons.
* Don't like single weapon only? Go for the many games that had multiple weapons.
* Don't like danmaku/bullet hell? Play classic/old-school shmups.
* Don't like classic/old-school shmups? Play the danmaku/bullet hell ones.
* Don't like any of the vertical/horizontal/arena/tube/isometric shumps? Then go for the run-and-guns and even the platform shmups.

I can go on, but the point is that hardware limitations or not, the reason many of the 2-D games were popular in arcades and also in terms of their home conversions was because of the game design and gameplay were still more than acceptable to those players who played those games. Also, some of the most memorable soundtracks from old games used 8-bit sound--Outzone, for example, had an excellent soundtrack and yet that was not even wavetable sound.

Descent 2

Interesting that this game was brought up because I found it to be much more claustrophobic than original Descent. The ceilings were narrower and the corridors were narrower... almost as if they were trying to bring a bit of 2-D shooter action back to the 3-D environment. Try to slide up? Hit the ceiling rather quickly. Try to slide down, hit the floor just as quickly.

Go ahead, load up Descent. Lots of wide corridors, high ceilings. Load up Forsaken--similar gameplay but by a different developer--again, wide corridors, high ceilings in many areas. Now load up Descent 2... transitions from room to room have narrow corridors and low ceilings, and even many of the rooms have lower ceilings. Not much room to really slide up and down, so then--sort of like a 2D shmup--any sliding is usually sideways and adding left or right rotation to the sliding still keeps it in the same 2D circle.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

hmmm seems to me that he might prefer the after burner with bullet dodging doujin called Master Burner or its better looking sequel Master Burner Climax still just a trail.

Anyway i think you have the wrong idea about comparing shmups to 3d space sims, as a ship in a shmup is just a sprite. These sprites can be anything, flying girls, dragons or flying phalus'. To many fan its the dodging and scoring thats the fun. Infact i bet if someone was to make a shmup that just showed the hitboxes and nothing else, and had great bullet parterns and scoring system i bet more then a few ppl here would enjoy playing it.

[shmupsorrow77]

hmmm seems to me that he might prefer the after burner with bullet dodging doujin called Master Burner or its better looking sequel Master Burner Climax still just a trail.

Anyway i think you have the wrong idea about comparing shmups to 3d space sims, as a ship in a shmup is just a sprite. These sprites can be anything, flying girls, dragons or flying phalus'. To many fan its the dodging and scoring thats the fun. Infact i bet if someone was to make a shmup that just showed the hitboxes and nothing else, and had great bullet parterns and scoring system i bet more then a few ppl here would enjoy playing it.

The guy who posted the Zone of enders link and you have been insightful. I think you guys have a knack to see where my instincts are on the matter.

I think this was the result that I've been away from the genre a long time since I'd been playing other games. I think this is an issue of me having played more complicated games in multiplayer (descent, fs2) and other 3D -shmup combat games like Ace combat. This may be why I feel older 2D shmups are so constraining, and why I found Descent 2 multiplay so compelling. It's been congealing in my mind for a bit now and I'll probably have some concise and clear points in a bit.

One point I've found so far is

Shmup levels are repetitive, i.e. there is no surprise or unknown factor about what's coming next, randomly generated levels would probably be nice. Also levels that some amount of scrolling, although I think gradius Gaiden/deluxe for the PS1 had this in one of the games, it's been a while (and my memory is foggy). I found ether vapor for instance to be highly constraining due to the rails like nature even though I thought it was alright. When I played it, some of parts reminded me of some parts of Area 88 / Un Squadron.

http://edelweiss.skr.jp/works/ethervapor/index.html

[captpain]

I sure hope you're not finished explaining why you don't like shmups. I can't remember the last time I've been so fascinated by anything.

[Dragoforce]

Take your generic game media complaints against shmups and gtfo. It's alright not to like shmups, but please stop pestering us about it.

[Rob]

Shmup levels are repetitive,

Repetitive = consistent.

i.e. there is no surprise or unknown factor about what's coming next,

This is exactly the appeal. I want to know that I can expect something good to stay good. A consistent, expected challenge. If I want a mixture of great and shitty gaming sessions against idiots and experts, I'll play multiplayer games.

[JoshF]

randomly generated levels would probably be nice

Yeah let's throw stage designers and balance out the window. FOR THE EXPERIENCE.

More reason why you're an idiot: you think 2D games can evolve into 3D. Anyone who's seriously thought about game design knows this is as impossible as Tetris evolving into a kart racer, but keep on typing "game design, game design, game design" it really bolsters your opinions. Like at first I thought they were retarded but then I saw the word "game design" and well, how can you argue with that, now it's science. Anyway, keep on lovin' Mega Man X7 my brotha.

[NR777]

More crap about why I don't like shmups.

If you don't like shmups, why are you here? Most of us enjoy the genre for what it is. You obviously do not.

[Ghegs]

You already tried this once, what made you think the response would be any different this time around?

[Kollision]

somedody ban this clown

[Pirate1019]

randomly generated levels would probably be nice.

It's been done.

It's also proof for why this is not a valid proposal for 'evolving' the genre. As much as I love Kenta Cho's games (and I do), they're still just small time. Simple ideas put into practice by some guy on his free time. The more complex something is, the easier it is to break it. Procedurally generated content is the fastest way to break any game mechanic known to man.

[mdsfx]

This poster has been given enough attention. Ignore it and stop feeding the fire. This would be like me jumping back on SRK and posting that fighting games suck. It's pointless.

[shmupsorrow77]

randomly generated levels would probably be nice

Yeah let's throw stage designers and balance out the window. FOR THE EXPERIENCE.

Yes because we all know diablo 1 and 2 were such failures at random level generation. This just means that most shmup designers who've attempted level generation haven't got it right.