Blurred Lines: What makes a true 'Shmup?

[Herr Schatten]

Can open. Worms everywhere.

[Acid King]

This forum, and most fans I think, limit use of the term to fixed screen, scrolling and arena shooters. 3d shooters like Starfox usually aren't counted because the scrolling is on a different plane.

Can open. Worms everywhere.

Ha ha. That's what I thought when I saw the thread title.

[Kollision]

I see them as a special type of shoot'em up, but shoot'em ups nonetheless.

[Dragoforce]

I don't regard Starfox, Panzer Dragoon as shmups. Basicly becasure they are to slow and lack the speed and intensity of arcade railers like Space Harrier or Night Striker. If I'm not mistaken arcade railers alongside run 'n guns are viewed STGs in Japan?

[cools]

What actually makes a true shoot-em-up game?

Single plane movement. Movement in 3 dimensions = not a shmup.

[The Eidolon]

It's useful to have an operational definition, but it would be silly expect
everyone to agree on what it should be. For me, shmups are about
precision dodging of enemy fire in 2D environment, while shooting
enemy targets. Movement should be of a flying/floating type rather than
a walking/jumping type. Other typical, but not required elements:
One hit to kill player ship
Vertical or horizontal forced scrolling
Powerful, limited use bombs
Player a spacecraft, plane, mech of flying humanoid (not a car/tank/walking humanoid)
Power-ups

And some borderliners, with explication why they would not fall
under my arbitrary definition of shmups:

Star Wars -- Cockpit view, must enemy fire is shot rather than dodged
Robotron -- protagonist walks, no forced movement
Metal Slug -- Protagonist walks/jumps -> run and gun rather than a shmup
Assault -- tank, no forced movement
Reactor -- bumping rather than shooting to destroy enemies
Missile Command -- Shoot rather than dodge enemy fire
Red Baron -- Cockpit View, 3D
Paperboy -- Except for the setting, this pretty much fits into my definition of a shmup!
Pooyan -- No forced motion, non-standard shot trajectory
Afterburner -- Behind the ship view, 3D
Space Harrier -- Ditto
Progress -- Tank, no forced motion
Cabal -- Fire at a reticle rather than in a straight line, on foot player
Arkanoid -- Primary mechanism is hitting the ball rather than using it as a shot
Us vs. Them -- Laserdisc backgrounrds, psuedo 3D sections
Major Havoc -- Shmup sections are the minority portion of the game
Journey -- Just kind of weird. Some sections are not shmups (walking/jumping)
Spy Hunter -- car based, dodging type doesn't feel very shmup-like

Borderliners I would call shmups:

Zaxxon -- Depends on if you want to call isometric 3D a shmup
Dragon Breed -- Has a jump option to play on foot, but not a major game element
Legendary Wings -- Horizontal sections are still pretty shmup-like
Return of the Jedi -- Even the walker/airbike sections play like a shmup
In the Hunt -- most aquatic games are honorary shmups, even without forced motion
Space Invaders -- no fixed motion, but as the precursor of shmups, fixed screen shooters
get grandfathered in as shmups.

As you can see, any definition will wind up making a lot of arbitrary distinctions. What I
think we may be really doing is taking a preexisting mental list of things that "should" be
shmups and searching for the right criteria to exclude things that "shouldn't." But the real
criteria for inclusion is by feel and its context relative to other games, and a strict
definition is just an ex post facto attempt to systematize things. I have a great deal of
trouble coming up with a concise definition that would explain why Paperboy, for example,
isn't a shmup, although I know by feel it shouldn't be...

[DJ Incompetent]

If this thread fills up with snarky answers, it's cause this topic has been hit up a ton back then. Hopefully these should get ya what you need:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... ne&start=0 Your definition of a shoot-em-up
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... ne&start=0 A shmup or not?
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... ne&start=0 Is Centipede a SHMUP?
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... ne&start=0 Metal Slug a shmup? Wikipedia thinks so.
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... ne&start=0 Are these games shmups ?
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... ne&start=0 Definition of "beating" a shmup...
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... ne&start=0 Define euroshmup...

User Turrican handdrew a (venn?) diagram once that made a lot of sense to me. If anybody remembers what that thread was, bringin' that pic back would be good.

[Herr Schatten]

User Turrican handdrew a (venn?) diagram once that made a lot of sense to me. If anybody remembers what that thread was, bringin' that pic back would be good.

This one?
It can be found in this thread: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25657
There's some interesting on-topic discussion in that thread, too.

Rule of thumb: If you have to ask yourself "Is this a shmup?", it's probably not.

[Ganelon]

Single plane movement. Movement in 3 dimensions = not a shmup.

That just got me thinking about KOF's dodge move and whether any 2D shooter lets you press a button to dodge to an invincible background (but with some recovery frames when you return back to the main plane)...

Anyway, nobody will agree on the classics and arena shooters so everything is open to interpretation. Don't think about it too hard.

[BIL]

^Would the loop maneuver in 1942/1943 count?

[DJ Incompetent]

User Turrican handdrew a (venn?) diagram once that made a lot of sense to me. If anybody remembers what that thread was, bringin' that pic back would be good.

This one?
It can be found in this thread: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25657
There's some interesting on-topic discussion in that thread, too.

Rule of thumb: If you have to ask yourself "Is this a shmup?", it's probably not.

That's cool, but I was thinkin' of a different one. It had all the subgenres named and placed in various circles.

Single plane movement. Movement in 3 dimensions = not a shmup.

That just got me thinking about KOF's dodge move and whether any 2D shooter lets you press a button to dodge to an invincible background (but with some recovery frames when you return back to the main plane)...

I think 1942 did that.
Then like, 1943 did that and added a bomb as you flew into foreground/background
Then everybody said fuck it and just have the bomb destroy bullets.
And now we have a dedicated bomb button.

[Ganelon]

Wasn't that pretty much a bomb invulnerability effect though with limited uses? Been a long time and I never wanted to waste my quarters on that title at the time, ha. Good call though; I was thinking more of a free dodge but with bullet patterns and slow laser-esque beams preventing that from being overpowered. But then we have to wonder if this is a 3D game with 3D movement.

[Kollision]

That just got me thinking about KOF's dodge move and whether any 2D shooter lets you press a button to dodge to an invincible background (but with some recovery frames when you return back to the main plane)...

There's an invincibility cloak in Super Dropzone.

[grobda]

its shades of gray at the edges.

Personally I dont count arena shooters, but maybe thats becasue i dont like them. I like the unfolding landscape and the feeling of progression into enemy territory; something true shmups share with rail shooters.

heres one; what does playing silkworm solely as the jeep count as? (apart from masochistic)

[captpain]

Have a peek in the Hi Score forum and see what kind of games you have. Not Panzer Dragoon, not Starfox, not really even any arena shooters to speak of. So shmups as this forum defines them (otherwise known as the Right Way) are games like DoDonPachi and Battle Garegga.

[Kollision]

It's impossible to have Starfox anywhere, it's a scoreless game.

[Ghegs]

It's impossible to have Starfox anywhere, it's a scoreless game.

Unless you go for the competition version (gameplay here).

[Kollision]

Wow, I didn't know about that!

And I take back what I wrote about Starfox.
There's actually a score, it's only shown after you beat the stages.

[MrPopo]

Single plane movement. Movement in 3 dimensions = not a shmup.

That just got me thinking about KOF's dodge move and whether any 2D shooter lets you press a button to dodge to an invincible background (but with some recovery frames when you return back to the main plane)...

Anyway, nobody will agree on the classics and arena shooters so everything is open to interpretation. Don't think about it too hard.

Don't forget Vertical Force, which is a pretty standard shmup with the one wrinkle of having a distinct foreground and background that you could switch between, both of which were active game fields.

[toaplan_shmupfan]

This is why I never actually just refer to a game as a shooter (or shmup) without also qualifying it. I tend to regard any game where the primary mechanic of the game is shooting as some type of shmup, as long as it is not specifically a first-person shooter or a light gun game.

For example, I don't just call a game like Sky Shark a shmup (which, of course it is a shmup) without specifically calling it a vertically scrolling shmup. Similarly, something like U.N. Squadron is a horizontal shmup. That makes Contra and Metal Slug a platform shmup. That makes Zaxxon an isometric-scrolling shmup, the 3-D perspective does not remove the primary mechanic of shooting. Robotron 2084 is an arena shmup. Games such as Time-Pilot, Total Carnage, Sinistar, Vanguard, Section-Z, etc. that have multiple directions of scrolling on a more than occasional basis I would classify as omnidirectional scrolling shmups.

In contrast, something like Super Mario Bros. or other platform games that don't have a primary mechanic of shooting wouldn't be a shmup because the fireball mushroom is a powerup but not a primary mechanic of the game. (From the start of the game, the mechanics are jumping, hit something above or stomp something below.) However, platform games such as Pyros, Ghosts 'N' Goblins, and Ghouls and Ghosts I would consider as platform shmups because there is just as much of a shooting mechanic as there are platform techniques such as jumping, climbing ladders, etc. Arkanoid doesn't qualify as a shmup because while the laser is a powerup, it's not the primary mechanic of the game (hitting the ball with the Vaus is the primary mechanic). Projectiles in fighting games don't qualify the game as a shmup because those are special moves but not the primary mechanic (even if players find themselves in a projectile vs. projectile fight).

[captpain]

.

If Ghosts 'n Goblins somehow winds up under the umbrella of your definition of shmups, then You're Doing It Wrong.

[Kollision]

You're Doing It Wrong [2]

[Ebbo]

The only on-rails shooter I would remotely consider as a shmup would be Sin and Punishment 2, mainly because of the ability to fly all over the place most of the time and the nature of its gameplay. Then again, I would only call it one because "on-rails shooter" feels like an underestimation.

[MathU]

Star Fox is a 3D shoot 'em up. You can do everything you can do in Raiden, with an added dimension. "Rail shooter" is a stupid (even degrading) misnomer. If anything a regular 2D shooter is more "on-rails" than any game like Star Fox because you certainly have even less freedom of movement. "Rail shooter" is a more appropriate homonym for light gun games like Time Crisis and House of the Dead.
That's all I'm gonna add to this thread.
Maybe.

[Herr Schatten]

I was thinkin' of a different one. It had all the subgenres named and placed in various circles.

Found it.

[toaplan_shmupfan]

Although "Rail shooter" is often used to describe a 3-D shump with limited motion within a 2-D box, the term can be absolutely appropriate for games that actually do play on rails or defined lanes.

Definitely a rail shooter, these two games immediately come to mind:
* Activision's Beamrider. Moving from beam to beam but not being able to remain in between beams.
* Harmonix's Amplitude. Shooting down items that correspond to musical events and also changing in between defined lanes.

Other 3-D games that would be considered as "rail shooters" due to restricted movement in a 2-D box would likely include:
* Space Harrier
* Afterburner
* Novastorm

What about first person view rail shmups, where the target icon is in a 2-D box, but they aren't free movement like a First Person Shooter and the game selects where the action will take place?
* Star Wars series
* Star Fire
* Starblade
* Galaxian III

Here's another one for further discussion:
* RoadBlasters? Visually, it looks like a racing game. But then the shooting mechanic is an important part of the game ("shooting accuracy increases multiplier", "reserve fuel awarded based on score") and not just an afterthought.

[kid aphex]

Recently, a friend of mine ...

the games you mentioned evoke emotions (and twitch response) much the same as do other games more traditionally held as shmups.
as time moves forward, the videogame medium evolves, and twitch gameplay disappears, i have a feeling more and more games are going to be considered shmups or shmup-like by newer generations of gamers.

however, this forum's evolution seems diametric to the industry's ... it's exponentially reductionist view of the genre seems to be pushing itself in a very specific, very fringe direction.

so in short: it depends on who you're talking to.

[Pirate1019]

it's exponentially reductionist view of the genre seems to be pushing itself in a very specific, very fringe direction.

Or keeping it right where it always was. Expanding the definition of a genre just to keep it alive ruins the purpose of categorizing something as that genre.

I'm reminded of the term "Action Adventure", which encompasses something like 75% of all games ever made.

[evil_ash_xero]

On rail shooters are not shmups, but they are certainly old school shooters.

I agree with the majority of folks on what a "shmup" is(it's really not that difficult). But I disagree with Bangai-O being up for voting in the shmups forums best of lists. That is not a shmup.

Even though In The Hunt has no forced scrolling, everything about it is a shmup. I can't see that game being anything other than that. Now, if you could go backwards, I would probably have a change of heart on that.

[esreveR]

I'm going to be an idiot and say, "Shmups are where you shoot shit".

A lot of shit, mind you.

2D movement via joysticks is a nice way to put it though.