Why shmups are such a niche genre

[Taylor]

True, I would argue that the home-exclusive games did look up to, and emulate, arcade games though. But I won't, 'cause I check this topic too much.

[lgb]

what arguing is there to be done? I'm talking about the genre itself

[Mills]

Like i said, time itself destroys everthing. shumps certainly wasn't a niche genre back in the 1970's and 80's arcade scene worldwide, and shumps is certainly not a niche genre within the japanese arcade scene today. its just niche everywhere else in the world of videogames.

[lgb]

"niche" is an entirely different thing in Japan though, it seems

[EPS21]

Like i said, time itself destroys everthing. shumps certainly wasn't a niche genre back in the 1970's and 80's arcade scene worldwide, and shumps is certainly not a niche genre within the japanese arcade scene today. its just niche everywhere else in the world of videogames.

Shmups are still a niche in Japanese arcades. You really have to look around to find some in bigger arcades, and even then they usually just have a few unless the arcade's name is a 3 letter word starting with 'H' and ending in 'Y'.

[Mills]

Well Ryan Hart (if you know of him within the dedicated beat-em-up gaming scene) will tell you different as he as lived and worked in japan for many years (works for nintendo last ive heard), a has experienced the gaming scene and community long enough to confirm otherwise that goes on in the japanese world of shumps. and im not just talking about the nature shumps, im talking culture.

[Mortificator]

The arcade economics are completely on-topic because they are arcade games designed to be played a certain way. You can continue when you lose in a shmup, you can remake your character when you die in an MMO, you can play racing games by driving backwards, and you can play fighting games just to look at the female characters pantsu. But “fun is relative” doesn’t change the fact that none of these games were made for that play style.

In the interview GP translated, Tatsuya Uemura said his Toaplan games were made for that play style.

[lgb]

The arcade economics are completely on-topic because they are arcade games designed to be played a certain way. You can continue when you lose in a shmup, you can remake your character when you die in an MMO, you can play racing games by driving backwards, and you can play fighting games just to look at the female characters pantsu.

("you can play racing games by driving backwards" is the odd one out)

this is actually contradictory because the continue feature gets people to spend more money; this is arcade economics

I'm not saying that a 1CC is a self-made challenge (it's not, and neither is scoring high), but the continue feature has a purpose and to say that you should always play games without continuing might technically be wrong (note those who would use continues to sample the stages)

[captpain]

The arcade economics are completely on-topic because they are arcade games designed to be played a certain way. You can continue when you lose in a shmup, you can remake your character when you die in an MMO, you can play racing games by driving backwards, and you can play fighting games just to look at the female characters pantsu.

("you can play racing games by driving backwards" is the odd one out)

this is actually contradictory because the continue feature gets people to spend more money; this is arcade economics

I'm not saying that a 1CC is a self-made challenge (it's not, and neither is scoring high), but the continue feature has a purpose and to say that you should always play games without continuing might technically be wrong (note those who would use continues to sample the stages)

stop pretending that people here can't tell the difference between continuing for practice purposes and continuing due to ignorance (credit feeding)

[lgb]

people here

derp

[captpain]

people here

derp

[Exarion]

it aint hard if you got this many lifes i think rp games are allot harder like wow [sic]

-some random guy talking about futari ultra mode

Apparently, the easiest MMO ever is harder than futari ultra mode, because you can credit feed ultra mode. We knew that people thought these games were easy due to credit feeding, but not to this extent.

[captpain]

yeah....

once you've put a continue coin in, you've stopped playing the game as the developers intended, and started playing as the arcade operator would love you to

[Udderdude]

Clearly, credit feeding is like a can of pringles. Once you pop, you can't stop. >_>

[lgb]

yeah....

once you've put a continue coin in, you've stopped playing the game as the developers intended, and started playing as the arcade operator would love you to

Code: Select all

"as the developers intended"
   |
   V
"as the arcade operator would love you to" ---> "'feeding credits'"
                                            |
                                            --> "'one-credit clear'" 

[Meyers07]

Why shmups are such a niche genre? Because:

They are oftenly mistaked as a casual game since the mechanism are quite simple (movement and two buttons), but the game needs several tries in order to master it if someone pick a shmup for the first time.

Then the difficulty turns away mainstream or those guys who only want entertainment instead of frustation.

[captpain]

yeah....

once you've put a continue coin in, you've stopped playing the game as the developers intended, and started playing as the arcade operator would love you to

Code: Select all

"as the developers intended"
   |
   V
"as the arcade operator would love you to" ---> "'feeding credits'"
                                            |
                                            --> "'one-credit clear'" 

are you deliberately misconstruing what i am saying so that you feel like you've proven me wrong somehow or are you actually being serious, i can't tell

[gs68]

Well, that gives me my new plan for Super Ultra Casual Shooterfest 3000:

NO POINTS
INFINITE LIVES ONLY
FINAL DESTINATION
also if you beat the game in 3 lives or less your console bricks or your computer formats its C: drive

[Udderdude]

Well, that gives me my new plan for Super Ultra Casual Shooterfest 3000:

NO POINTS
INFINITE LIVES ONLY
FINAL DESTINATION
also if you beat the game in 3 lives or less your console bricks or your computer formats its C: drive

1cc=1 crashed computer/console ..

[Taylor]

The arcade economics are completely on-topic because they are arcade games designed to be played a certain way. You can continue when you lose in a shmup, you can remake your character when you die in an MMO, you can play racing games by driving backwards, and you can play fighting games just to look at the female characters pantsu.

("you can play racing games by driving backwards" is the odd one out)

this is actually contradictory because the continue feature gets people to spend more money; this is arcade economics

I'm not saying that a 1CC is a self-made challenge (it's not, and neither is scoring high), but the continue feature has a purpose and to say that you should always play games without continuing might technically be wrong (note those who would use continues to sample the stages)

I was making a general statement to stop their arcade quality being dismissed, there's no need to be nitpicky. Using continues to train is still about the 1CC goal (as you know, hence the "might technically"). Developers are obviously trying to please lots of groups at once, and yes one of those groups arcade operators who like to see someone throw money into it. Continues are there to please the operators. But are feeders players or people being played?

[Mortificator]

So... arcade shooter developers intentionally develop games that generate less revenue for their primary market, arcade operators, even though operator profits drive developer profits? They are, in essence, choosing to make less money?

[Taylor]

Do you think you make more money out of the odd person credit feeding through a few levels or dedicated players returning to unwravel and perfect your game?

Hint: Cave games are getting much easier to 1cc.

[Mortificator]

I agree, the kind of person who dumps in a dozen coins to see the ending of a shooter isn't the kind of person who's likely to regularly play in arcades. You said that continues are there to please the operators, though, which I took to mean that you agree with the posts in that last couple of pages saying that they're implemented contrary to the intended play mechanics to generate more revenue. If the only thing that continues accomplish is possibly coaxing some more quarters out of the rube who wanders in once in a blue moon, that's probably not true.

[Exarion]

I remember someone saying something that they would continue much more readily in two player mode, and I think the real intention of continues has something to do with that. Maybe we should focus on promoting the more accessible STGs to the average gamer? Deathsmiles would work well here, as its easy enough while still having a good scoring system, and on top of that, IGN likes it. That last one is really important, as we can probably expect a good review from at least one source.

[S20-TBL]

Decided to drop back in after a while and read the whole thread, suffering the trolling along the way.

I read the replies to my post and would like to respond, but since I don't have the time right now, maybe I should drop some lines here from officemates just to keep on topic about shmups being niche. Note, I work at a third-party gamedev company and these guys are all gamers themselves (a nice mix of casual and hardcore, but mostly the latter):

"I don't like playing those kinds of games [bullet hell games]. It's too stressful." (watching DeathSmiles' TLB fight on YouTube)
"WHAAAA..." (watching a video of PriZhm's third boss during its final sine wave pattern)
"I used to play that when I was a kid..." (watching me play Blue Wish Resurrection)
"Exactly how are they supposed to playtest that anyway?" (watching DDP: DFK's Taisabachi/Hibachi fight on youtube)
"Maybe they have some sort of God Mode cheat when they playtest it..." (same)
"It's not like Ikaruga, is it?" (while I was describing a potential puzzle-'em-up pitch)
"Whoa, old school!" (watching me play StellaVanity)
"How are you supposed to dodge all those??" (various; once it was during the infamous Spiritual Larsa vid)
"Oh, it's like 1942!" (when I showed someone a DoDonPachi screenshot)
"No dude, I think it's great; it kinda reminds me of Life Force." (after watching me play StellaVanity)

And the one that hurt the most out of all of them:

"Where were you all these years?" (watching me play BWR; person didn't mean to, but it felt like a low blow nonetheless)

I managed to get one person (a designer) deeply interested in them, but the last time I saw him play a Cave game he credit fed through most of E.S.P.Ra.De. Hopefully he'll learn in time.

You might want to read this Gamasutra interview of Hudson's Toshiyuki Takahashi. I've given the link to page 3, where at the end he mentions something about the then-market trend of 3D graphics and eyecandy eventually killing off the action/shootemup games from a business standpoint.

Also, the2bears has linked this thoughful email reply by Sean Malstrom on "The Dark Age of Shmups". In fact you may want to note that this very thread was brought up on the reader email that Malstrom replied to.

Laters, back to work for me.

[BIL]

thoughful email reply by Sean Malstrom

Flashier, shallower shooters? Already covered in this thread.

[Obiwanshinobi]

something accessible to newcomers

Raiden III is accessible to newcomers.

[gs68]

S20, you're showing videos of TLBs; there's your problem.

If I wanna expose my friends to shooters, I show them first and second stages on default difficulty to give them an idea of the game, rather than showing them the game at 100% of its difficulty. Or if I have access to a shmup, I play on easy mode (as degrading as it is to some people) or hold back my ability so they can follow what I'm doing.

There's a time and place to show off your mad 1CC skillz. In front of friends who have little experience with the genre is not one of them; all you're most likely going to do is turn them off from the genre for life.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

What i dont get is that run and gunners like Contra were and still are very hard games to beat. I would guess that new games of Contra sell a hell of alot more copies then the latest Raiden or Gradius game.
( i would love to know the actual units sold of each game mentioned) Plus more ppl remember fondly the original NES version of Contra then say R-type or Gradius imo.

Personally i think there could do with been a few more easier shmups been made. And to everyone who thinks easy means a bad game, i would dissagre a game can still be fun and easy if designed properly.
Someone in one of those shmup month podcasts touched on this. Many ppl (including me some of the time) want to switch off and relax when they play video games. Most shooters and all of manics are the total oppersite. With shmups been one of the most simple genres in its pure form its not rocket science to create a shmup that everybody, casual and hardcore can just kick back and relax and have fun shooting shit up.

[BIL]

Zanac Neo is a model relaxing, flexible shooter as far as I'm concerned (on defaults). Lots of stages, lots of weapons, nonstop screenloads of targets, simple but addictive scoring system with tons of extends to pile up, nice presentation, and flexible enough that you can switch from zoning out to aggressive performance and back again at leisure. It even has "achievements," lots of them, some reasonable, others tough as hell to get. I often put it on when I'm just not up for a scoring game.

Whether the mainstream media or uninitiated would bother to dig any deeper than a new Neo's superficial resemblance to Raiden, the model hard-as-nails shooter, is something I'm not convinced of. Shooter fans love the genre's uncompromising, at-a-glance outdated and generic ground rules. They ensure a certain standard of challenge and focus, while allowing for a diverse range of game styles and systems. Attracting the disinterested while maintaining that structure can only go so far.

I'm not going to give anyone a hard time for not appreciating any difference between a sophisticated, punishing Border Down and their musty, fondly remembered Life Force NES cart, but I'm just as uninterested in G-Rev's next shooter being any less "convoluted" or "eccentric" for their sake.

And if this is a "dark age" for shooters as a genre, I must've had jumper cables hooked up to my balls two years back when fuck all was in sight of being ported home. Let the genre age gracefully.

Novice modes, easier courses, etc alongside the default game (as in Cave's latest ports) are a great idea.