Is "bullet hell" really that difficult?

[gs68]

At least compared to shooters with a more conservative bullet count?

Many people--especially those whose knowledge of Cave shooters is limited to TLB's--seem to think bullet hell shooters are 100 million times harder than older shooters. But is that really so?

If you gave me a Cave shooter that I've never played before, I could maybe reach the end of stage 2 or halfway through stage 3 (of 5) on my first try.

But if I were to play Truxton II (which I HAVE played) right now, I'd be lucky to witness Stage 2 (of 6)'s boss. As for many other Toaplan shooters, I'd be lucky to reach the second stage due to the amount of snipe shots and other cheap tricks.

[Exarion]

late 80s stuff was vicious in regards to snipers and point blanking, as well as memorization. Raiden largely reduced the amount of that, and from there things went to bullet hell

[njiska]

You can't really make a direct comparison between the difficulty of Bullet Hell and non-bullet hell shooters. They're different styles of design, not different classes of challenge.

[Ed Oscuro]

Thread cannot continue beyond this line

___________

seriously, I mean it

[Mad Mage]

Bullet Hell shooters can certainly be more intimidating. Especially to people who don't play them much.

I think you can't generalize a type of shmup as fitting into one difficulty bracket. There are too many of both kinds of shmups all of varying difficulties. However, the hardest of the hard bullet hell shmups on the second run are probably as difficult as things get

[MathU]

Bullet hell shooters in general rely on the illusion of extra difficulty via extra bullets as a selling point.

Compare Image Fight to any Touhou game for example. Image Fight is at least an order of magnitude harder.

[Dale]

It obviously depends what 2 games your comparing. But in general you'll find the type you practice more often to be easier. I've recently gotten better at non danmuku modern arcade shmups.

[Sasupoika]

Well, it depends. Some non-manic or non bullet hell-shmups are easy, but then again there are some extremely hard ones.
Then there are of course extremely hard bullet hell- and manic-shmups ( DOJ, Mushihimesama Futari ).
There are also easy bullet hell-shmups.

Yeah, people who say bullet hell shooters are harder than traditional shmups are probably same kind of idiots who think Touhou is harder than x.

[kengou]

There's a lot of illusion in bullet hells to make them look much harder than they are. The massive on-screen bullet count (only a small amount of which you actually need to worry about dodging) and the small hitboxes of both the player and bullet sprites contribute to an impressive-looking game. I find most Cave games easier to get into than older shmups, as the older ones seem to use some unfair tactics like sniping from the bottom/sides of the screen or essentially requiring you to memorize certain parts to survive them.

Of course, that's not to say there can't be really difficult bullet hells. See Daioujou or Mushi/Futari ultra modes.

[captpain]

You can't really make a direct comparison between the difficulty of Bullet Hell and non-bullet hell shooters. They're different styles of design, not different classes of challenge.

this x 1000000

[gs68]

My main focus is the aforementioned kind of people who look at bullet hell shooters and think something along the lines of

Agreed. My dick can beat Ikaruga.

Gradius V makes me cry. And cave shooters? Fuck that.

or something else along the lines of "OH THIS GAME IS A DANMAKU, SO IT MUST BE 100,000,000 TIMES HARDER THAN RAIDEN."

So come to think of it perhaps I'm not thinking "bullet hell vs. not-bullet hell" and more like "Cave vs. anything else".

[wiNteR]

I do feel that second loops of cave games are fairly memorization centric even when played purely for survival. I mean in the sense that you need to have a routine (there is usually more than one) to destroy enemies quickly enough before they overwhelm you. And they do overwhelm you with bullets within fraction of a second, so you have to be fairly accurate in whatever path you use. This is especially true of later half of levels in second loops in my opinion.

About difficulty, that varies from game to game. I feel that bullet hell (small hitbox, more bullets), manic (fast bullets) and old school (big hitbox) are fairly different styles with some overlap. However, the overlap is surely not enough to guarantee that if you are really good at one style you will do good with the other directly, without any prior experience.

Then there are games like shikigami no shiro or homura where i do quite bad. I would like to think that's because of vague hitbox and blind spots, but this is just a speculation. Maybe they involve some different sensibilities from more standard danmaku games.

[Plasmo]

Then there are games like shikigami no shiro or homura where i do quite bad. I would like to think that's because of vague hitbox and blind spots, but this is just a speculation.

What do you mean with "vague hitbox"? Unlike most of CAVEs games, these shooters actually show you where your hitbox exactly is.

Regarding the general question: Saying that bullet hell shooters are generally harder than oldschool ones, is like saying puzzle games are more dificult than first person shooters. Comparisons don't make too much sense, they are simply two different genres. There are easy and difficult bullet hell shmups aswell as easy and difficult oldschool ones.

[njiska]

Of course, that's not to say there can't be really difficult bullet hells. See Daioujou or Mushi/Futari ultra modes.

So come to think of it perhaps I'm not thinking "bullet hell vs. not-bullet hell" and more like "Cave vs. anything else".

Futari Ultra is just downright cruel (even the damn rocks are trying to kill you) but I agree that most CAVE games are not overly challenging. Everything comes down to first impressions and anyone who looks at a Cave game or even TouHou is going to think it's insane. Only once they actually start playing the title will they learn just how much free space there really is on screen.

You can't really make a direct comparison between the difficulty of Bullet Hell and non-bullet hell shooters. They're different styles of design, not different classes of challenge.

this x 1000000

That's a sweet-assed multiplier!

[Skykid]

I'd say no. A lot of older shmups are probably harder, even if the bullet count is much lower.

Once you get a feel for BH stuff - mainly Cave - then it becomes easier to get around the patterns as you're sort of used to seeing them.

[orange]

stopping in to say "sniper tanks"

[clp]

bullet hell can be easy it can be difficult its all down to game design , good example is dangun feveron caves lowest bullet count id say and it rapes alot of ppls shitters ( probs why some ppl rate it so low ).

[lgb]

You can't really make a direct comparison between the difficulty of Bullet Hell and non-bullet hell shooters. They're different styles of design, not different classes of challenge.

you need more early cave games, clearly
--------
some older non-bullet hells make me mad, the "console" kind like Thunder Force, Ether Vapor, Einhander, etc. the games are fine enough and I like them but they seem waaay harder than any bullet hell I've played so far, simply because of the amount of crap in them

betting money that rayxanber is in this category

[wiNteR]

What do you mean with "vague hitbox"? Unlike most of CAVEs games, these shooters actually show you where your hitbox exactly is.

Well I was mainly referring to shikigami 2 which I have spent some time on. Anyway, it's been more than a year since I last played it, so I played it for a few minutes and there seem to be three main reasons.

ESP Rade style character model with alot of animation movement. It's fairly distracting, just like in ESP Rade. Also the hitbox only seems to be glowing when you have a multiplier going. So if you are away from enemies (and bullets) and have some pattern at you directly (like boss patterns or new enemy sections), it's not going to be of much use for first few seconds.

There are fairly sizeable chunks of screen, both sideways and near the bottom where your character can not go. I know some games have these sort of patches near the sides, but they seem to be bigger in this game. This often leads to mistaking the movement space one has left.

Anyway, most importantly, it is just the character movement animation

[njiska]

You can't really make a direct comparison between the difficulty of Bullet Hell and non-bullet hell shooters. They're different styles of design, not different classes of challenge.

you need more early cave games, clearly

Ok i'm a little confused here.

[sh00g]

Depends on design.

[third_strike]

ESP Rade style character model with alot of animation movement. It's fairly distracting, just like in ESP Rade. Also the hitbox only seems to be glowing when you have a multiplier going. So if you are away from enemies (and bullets) and have some pattern at you directly (like boss patterns or new enemy sections), it's not going to be of much use for first few seconds.

I have two tips for you:
- Don't get away from enemies (and bullets).
- Focus only the glowing hitbox.
Cool!

[Ganelon]

Bullet hells basically clearly show you what dangers to dodge in what was once death shielded by an illusory clear field. But everything depends on the possible avenues, the width of such avenues, and the speed limit available to you; that's what makes up the difficulty of any shooter regardless.

Even then, I can't think of any shooter that requires more than 100 hours to 1CC (most only a small fraction of that time). Thus, even though they may take longer to overcome than most modern games, you can normally run through a shooter faster than an RPG. Of course, the casual OCD player would grow bored of his shooter much more quickly and that's why shooters have a reputation of being hard in the first place. What you mimic with grinding and story in the RPG, you actually do level up your own skills in a shooter.

The only thing different between classic shooters is that new games require more obtuse procedures to rack up maximum points.

[ncp]

Even then, I can't think of any shooter that requires more than 100 hours to 1CC (most only a small fraction of that time).

I sure as hell hope you mean this sentence literally (as in, one run doesn't take 100 hours) because I can think of dozens of shooters that require more than 100 hours of practice to clear.

the casual OCD player would grow bored of his shooter much more quickly and that's why shooters have a reputation of being hard in the first place.

I think you mean ADD. A stereotypical "OCD player" would spend copious amounts of time perfecting his run in a shooter.

[Ganelon]

Yeah, ADD, my bad. And what shooters take over 100 hours practice to 1CC (not taking any time spent learning the score system unless required)? I haven't encountered any. I just know DAI-OU-JOU is commonly regarded as a difficult bullet hell but I don't think that even took 50 hours, not going for score or trying for the 2nd loop.

[Kaiser]

Yeah, ADD, my bad. And what shooters take over 100 hours practice to 1CC (not taking any time spent learning the score system unless required)? I haven't encountered any.

Try Zing Zing Zip and Mushihimesama Ultra

[ncp]

Yeah, ADD, my bad. And what shooters take over 100 hours practice to 1CC (not taking any time spent learning the score system unless required)? I haven't encountered any. I just know DAI-OU-JOU is commonly regarded as a difficult bullet hell but I don't think that even took 50 hours, not going for score or trying for the 2nd loop.

If you're not going to count second loops, off the top of my head, both Mushis' ultra mode, Gradius 3, Batrider advanced...
Counting looping games... like most of them.

of course it depends on the player but I doubt many players have cleared these with less than 100 hours.

[Ganelon]

Well, can't say I've played those particular modes/game in any serious way. I just know that what folks often list as tough shooters (e.g. R-Type I & II, Image Fight, Battle Garegga, DAI-OU-JOU, Ibara) didn't take anywhere near 100 hours of total playing time for me (although I did some research on proper techniques to avoid rank and watched some videos on the best boss tactics). Maybe that's because I'm completely focused on survival unlike most players; I won't even pick up a medal unless I'm heading that direction anyway and will use bombs if it's taken me too long to get past a boss pattern.

[ncp]

DOJ and Image Fight are considered hard because of their second loop. Not sure about the specifics of IF but with DOJ you don't get a credit roll or fight the final boss or anything if you don't loop it. Plenty of players here can 1-loop DOJ, I think, but a grand total of zero can get an ALL.

You beat Ibara without scoring, though? How did you manage to pull that one off?

[robthebanks]

shmups r hard